why did they take those torture pictures?

[chucK]

I'll tell you why. Because the military intelligence guys wanted to be able to keep the dumb enlisted pukes in line. I think it's pretty well established that often the torturers are under some kind of duress themselves. These dumb kids, who are now going to be the scapegoats, thought maybe it was funny at first. The intelligence guys took their pictures, then if any of 'em started getting cold feet about torturing, the intelligence guys could just tell them they couldn't back out now. They were in for life. Classic blackmail technique.

 

I hope they get the military intelligence thugs who commanded all of this, instead of just a couple of dumb kids in the reserves who got caught up in some bad shit. It ain't right.

[slothrop]

It's probably pretty easy to convince a bunch of bored, stressed, underpaid, uncomfortable, homesick, undereducated, nominally-disciplined (they're in the Reserves, not the Marines) kids that torturing the enemy would be a fun diversion.

 

John McCain's questions to Rumsfeld today seem to imply that contractors are in charge of interrogations at military prisons in Iraq. That bothers me, since corporate employees aren't subject to Freedom of Information Act requests about their career backgrounds, are they? It seems like it'd be easier for some psycho to become a prison interrogator if they were a civilian rather than a soldier.

[chucK]

It's probably pretty easy to convince a bunch of bored, stressed, underpaid, uncomfortable, homesick, undereducated, nominally-disciplined (they're in the Reserves, not the Marines) kids that torturing the enemy would be a fun diversion.

 

Agreed. Then if they get pictures of them doing it, just once, they can keep them in line even after they sober up, or get some guilt pangs.

 

People have been saying, "why would anyone take pictures of themselves doing that shit?" Well, I think those pictures were taken for a reason, and it wasn't for these reserves to be able to reminisce back at home with.

[marylou]

Why did they take pictures of it?

 

Uh, why did they DO it? Torturing people is so not cool, man.

[lummox]

read this: http://nytimes.com/2004/05/06/international/middleeast/06PSYC.html

[glacier]

"What I did on my summer vacation...."

[bunglehead]

This was actually made into a film last year. I think it's German and it's called "The Experiment" or som shizzy like that....

[olyclimber]

This was actually made into a film last year. I think it's German and it's called "The Experiment" or som shizzy like that....

 

That movie was loosely based on the Stanford Prison Experiment. It is pretty messed up what people will do to each other in situations like that...

[thrutch]

I bet Bush and his boys just needed some new porn material.

[StickBoy]

Thanx for the link Oly. Absolute power will corrupt. Sad.

[Martlet]

I see the Black Helicopter Club is out in force today.

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

I'll tell you why. Because the military intelligence guys wanted to be able to keep the dumb enlisted pukes in line. I think it's pretty well established that often the torturers are under some kind of duress themselves. These dumb kids, who are now going to be the scapegoats, thought maybe it was funny at first. The intelligence guys took their pictures, then if any of 'em started getting cold feet about torturing, the intelligence guys could just tell them they couldn't back out now. They were in for life. Classic blackmail technique.

 

I hope they get the military intelligence thugs who commanded all of this, instead of just a couple of dumb kids in the reserves who got caught up in some bad shit. It ain't right.

 

This is a keen insight, and a good point. Following this logical arc, we find our boy Don Rumsfeld stepping up to issue the formal apology, which was originally requested of Bush. Clearly a copout. Take care of the apology to silence some of the outcry, and send out someone other than the Prez to take some of the heat. Bush's rep remains less tarnished, and he can always kick Rummy to the curb come election time if things look iffy.

 

Suave move by that coldblooded Texan motherfucker.

[AlpineK]

I see the Black Helicopter Club is out in force today.

 

Hey asshole...somebody fucked up. In reality it's never the folks lowest on the totem pole that are responsible. Some generals and maybe even Rumpy himself need to get fired.

[cracked]

I see the Black Helicopter Club is out in force today.

 

Hey asshole...somebody fucked up. In reality it's never the folks lowest on the totem pole that are responsible.

Now there's a quick and dirty way to absolve yourself of any and all responsibility.

 

"It's not MY fault, it's because of the sublimal messanges sent to me by my superiors."

 

Like saying schizophrenia is caused by bad parenting.

 

Nobody knows who is to blame; it could be the fault of some superior, but that could well be an eroneous conclusion.

[Fairweather]

Reminds me of a song:

 

from Dire Straits; Brothers in Arms

 

I am just an aging drummer boy

And in the wars, I used to play

And I've called a tune

To many a torture session

 

Now they say I am a war criminal

And I'm fading away

Father please hear my confession:

 

I have legalized robbery

And called it belief

I have run with the money

I have hid like a thief

Rewritten history with armies and crooks

Invented memories

I did burn all the books

 

And I can still hear his laughter

And I can still hear his song

The man's too big

The man's too strong

[whirlwind]

I see the Black Helicopter Club is out in force today.

 

Hey asshole...somebody fucked up. In reality it's never the folks lowest on the totem pole that are responsible.

Now there's a quick and dirty way to absolve yourself of any and all responsibility.

 

 

"It's not MY fault, it's because of the sublimal messanges sent to me by my superiors."

 

Like saying schizophrenia is caused by bad parenting.

 

Nobody knows who is to blame; it could be the fault of some superior, but that could well be an eroneous conclusion.

 

cracked u'd be surprised how many people get duped into doing things they don't want to just through the power of sugestion. take a few phycoligy classes if ur smart u'll start to see patters in which people follow and how one person can influence a group, for instance in cults

and its not too much of a strech to say that parenting has at least some influence on schizophrenia.

[cracked]

Reread my last sentence. Now read it again. Still don't understand? Then I can't help you.

 

I don't need 'phycoligy' classes to learn about the stupidity of people in large groups. Ever read

Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds?

 

link

 

You're too much of a moron to realize that I was not saying that Kurt is wrong, I was pointing out that what he says is not necessarily true. Reread my post above, Einstein. Saying 'never' is always an indicator of bullshit when it comes to human nature.

 

and its not too much of a strech to say that parenting has at least some influence on schizophrenia

 

Is it even worth responding to this? Is this what your phycoligy classes teach? What a waste of time.

At one time there was a theory that schizophrenia was the result of an abnormal family environment in childhood. The best known proponent of this idea in Britain was the late R.D. Laing. The research on this was never very good, and is now discounted. It did frequently have the unproductive effect of making the unhappy parents of those who later developed schizophrenia feel both guilty and defensive. It has also had a pervasive and unfortunate influence on the attitudes of some mental health professionals towards the parents of people with schizophrenia, which lingers to this day.

 

It is well established that people diagnosed with schizophrenia are affected by tensions at home, but this is not very surprising and it is hardly the same thing as claiming that the behaviour of parent can cause schizophrenia.

 

link

 

Then again, if you had so much trouble comprehending the argument of my above post, you'll have no chance with that link.

 

[cracked]

I wouldn't be surprised if the behavior documented by the Standford Prison Experiment was a major factor here.

 

[icegirl]

I don't care how bad things are over there, there are correct ways to treat people and incorrect ways. I don't care who was in charge, you don't do those things to other humans. I have never been in the military myself, but don't they teach you something about proper conduct, active or reserve???? We are each responsible for our own actions. Period.

[Martlet]

I see the Black Helicopter Club is out in force today.

 

Hey asshole...somebody fucked up. In reality it's never the folks lowest on the totem pole that are responsible. Some generals and maybe even Rumpy himself need to get fired.

 

You learn that language at your evening GED classes? You must be one of those "it's not my fault" people. Sit at home, drinking beer, collecting welfare, crying about how Bush took your job.

 

I've served. I've detained prisoners temporarily. It never occurred to me to strip them down and stack them up. Why? Not because my chain of command told me not to, but because I'm not a freaking moron. I know right from wrong.

 

While the soldiers WERE most likely influenced, or even directed, to participate in that behavior, we are all ultimately responsible for our own actions. Unless you live in a liberal make believe candy land.

[lummox]

I know right from wrong.

most of us do. thats what makes breaking rules so much fun.

[mattp]

So what's your point, Mr. Martlet?

 

I agree that it is a little bit of a stretch to assert that the photographs MUST have been taken for blackmail purposes, but I'd also have to say that it IS plausible that this was somebody's motivation for taking or for keeping them.

 

Anyway, aside from that curiosity, Rumsfeld apparently knew about this activity as early as January, and the Red Cross reported it last Fall. Yet it was all kept rather quiet until now. Ask yourself: doesn't this "smell" like some kind of coverup?

 

I know that since the Nuremberg Trials we of the "civilized world" have said that "I was ordered to do it" is not a valid defense but, rather than arrest some twisted sadist female footsoldier, shouldn't we be seeking to hold those responsible for overseeing the whole program responsible for doing just that?

 

To me, Rumsfeld's apologies sounded like Richard Nixon: "I'll tak all of the responsibility but none of the blame." (I know, the Dems are just as bad.)

[cracked]

I don't care how bad things are over there, there are correct ways to treat people and incorrect ways. I don't care who was in charge, you don't do those things to other humans. I have never been in the military myself, but don't they teach you something about proper conduct, active or reserve???? We are each responsible for our own actions. Period.

[Martlet]

My point is some liberal idiots on here try to manufacture news. You insinuate the administration is responsible for "keeping it quiet until now". Keeping it quiet? It was reported to the chain of command on 1/13, and on 1/16 CentCom issued a press release about it. How is that "keeping it quiet"?

 

All parties should receive punishment respective of their crimes. Right now, the moonbats in this thread are opining. We don't know at this point exactly what took place.

[mattp]

No liberal idiot tried to manufacture news. The original post, and pretty much all those which follow, are based primarily on speculation and nobody is concealing that fact. To me, however, it IS B.S. if CentCom knew what was going on January 13 or earlier, and only now that it has become a big issue do they make what as far as I know is the first arrest and only now, perhaps, they are intervening at all -- and mostly out of a desire to do damage control it seems.

 

I understand that war is ugly, and notwithstanding the heartfelt objections raised by the "liberal idiots" in this thread, there may even be a place for this kind of conduct (though I don't think it sounds like this will turn out to have been even close to justified). But the whole thing looks pretty hypocritical to me.