sewn quickdraw vs. tied webbing draw

[telemarker]

Question here...why wouldn't it be preferable to use tied webbing for quick draws, instead of sewn runners?? The reason I ask is wouldn't the knot of a tied runner absorb more of the force of a fall as it cinches tight, therefore putting less force on the gear, assuming a trad lead? Of course, there's always the risk of the tied runner coming untied. However, wouldn't the tied runner work somewhat like a screamer in absorbing the fall as the knot cinches under load?

[Dru]

short answer NO

knots are weaker than sewn-slings

the knot is bulky and gets in the way

 

tied webbing is only for rap slings IMHO.

[Greg_W]

I use some over-the-shoulder slings out of tied material on lead. Granted, what Dru says about the knot weakening is true; I think it is still of sufficient strength to handle a fall. I check the knots fairly frequently.

[catbirdseat]

The sewn spectra slings are MUCH stronger. I carry both sewn and tied if I need rap material. I like to use the sewn ones first when the fall factor is high and the tied ones last when the fall factor is low.

[RuMR]

Here we go again...

 

GregW is right on...

 

CBS et. all. you generate enough force to break a knotted sling you have some serious problems...

 

knots are bulkier, so i'd personally only use them for "over the shoulder" slings as i wouldn't want the knots on my harness...but that's a personal choice...no problems w/ strength...

[Jake]

Yeah. Knots take up way too much room. What size webbing were you figuring on using?

[Dru]

lets not forget that climbing with tied slings is one of those signs, like wandering around the Dihedrals with a rack of hexes, or full forearm tape jobs at Squamish, that shouts out BUMBLY

[Greg_W]

Fuckin', whatever, Dru. I use 9/16" tubular webbing.

[RuMR]

Dru...go find a boulder to scrub off, you big meanie super-climber...

[catbirdseat]

lets not forget that climbing with tied slings is one of those signs, like wandering around the Dihedrals with a rack of hexes, or full forearm tape jobs at Squamish, that shouts out BUMBLY

Yeah, either that or just plain poverty stricken.

[rock-ice]

lets not forget that climbing with tied slings is one of those signs, like wandering around the Dihedrals with a rack of hexes, or full forearm tape jobs at Squamish, that shouts out BUMBLY

Yeah, either that or just plain poverty stricken.

 

i hear that

[sk]

lets not forget that climbing with tied slings is one of those signs, like wandering around the Dihedrals with a rack of hexes, or full forearm tape jobs at Squamish, that shouts out BUMBLY

Yeah, either that or just plain poverty stricken.

 

i hear that

or bloody well CHEEP

[fern]

 

I started carrying a bunch of tied slings last year where previously I had only sewn ones. And I found I ended up leaving them all over the place! I guess previously I had always found ways to avoid leaving gear behind but once I had the tied ones convenient I'd use them. I only ever seem to find sewn runners left behind by other people though.

 

breaking strength of knot vs sewn is a non-issue. I have heard of slings failing due to melting and slicing on cable, but the weak point in a runner is usually the carabiner.

[dylan_taylor]

A tied runner shouldn't absorb any more energy thru knot-tightening unless you aren't tightening your knots enough in the first place, and even then the energy absorption is pretty insignificant. The time it takes for a knot to get tighter is a fraction of the amount of time that a screamer or load limiting device contributes to the equation. A properly tightened knot, or a knot that's been fallen on allready will accomodate almost 0% of the load. Besides, regular 9/16th webbing is pretty stretchy anyway. It's rupture point at its tensile limit is somewhere around 40%. That's what can make tightening slacklines so interesting.

 

I agree with a lot of the statements above about using tied 9/16" slings over the shoulder. It comes in handy in the mountains when you have to bail.

 

One of my first climbing partners was (and still is) a total ludite. He had a rack of sporty euro-draws made out of tied webbing. The webbing was sunbleached, and the knots were incredibly abbraded from getting dragged under tension across prickly granite and sandstone. Although none ever broke, we celebrated when he finally retired the relics.

[Jedi]

I do remember reading some info a few years back about knots "un tieing" themselves after being loaded many times. It seems there was a rappeling accident where a sling at a rap station came untied. So someone did some research and found knots in webbing comes undone after it is loaded so many times. Moral of the story, check your knots on your slings and knots at rap stations.

[Bug]

Brand new webbing with new knots will slip out occaissionally. After a couple years they lock up and you can't get them to come apart. I still check every knot every time I go climbing and several times while I am on the rock.

[Off_White]

lets not forget that climbing with tied slings is one of those signs, like wandering around the Dihedrals with a rack of hexes, or full forearm tape jobs at Squamish, that shouts out BUMBLY

 

I think it would be a hoot to put on some wool knickers, red socks, a little white cap, some tricouni nailed boots, a goldline, and a rack of pins and go wander around Smith asking questions.

[catbirdseat]

Let's go retro, baby!

[Coopah]

If you are worried that the knot will untie, put it under a load using a 3:1 pulley system to pretension the knot. After that is done...no worries.

[Alpine_Tom]

Brand new webbing with new knots will slip out occaissionally. After a couple years they lock up and you can't get them to come apart. I still check every knot every time I go climbing and several times while I am on the rock.

Last year my ice axe leash, which I tied onto the ice axe at least five years ago with a water knot, came off. The knot just came loose and came apart. It wasn't in a dire circumstance, but it sure surprised me, since I hadn't noticed it getting loose, and I'd think I'd have at least casually inspected the knot each time I used the ice axe.

 

[Wallstein]

If you are worried that the knot will untie, put it under a load using a 3:1 pulley system to pretension the knot. After that is done...no worries.

 

I don't think this is really good advice. Pretensioning the knot is fine but saying that it is done and you never have to worry about it again is incorrect. Water knots in webbing will continue to slip with continual loading and unloading. BD or someone else has done tests on this and have proven that webbing will keep slipping until failure. I don't really care to find the report as I have seen slipping in webbing first hand.

 

As for tied vs. sewn. It totally depends on what you are doing. Climbing at smiffy for the weekend or 2 months of climbing in Patagonia. I have sewn draws and I have tied slings. Anytime I think I might have to retreat off of a climb I always make sure to bring a few it not all tied slings. If I am trying to send Chain reaction (well I guess the draws are already there but) I would use less bulky better handling sewn-euro-sporto-draws. I never leave the ground without at least one tied sling though. It doesn't matter what I am doing it might save my ass one day.

 

my 2 cents to the penny jar.

[icegirl]

Hey, Kudo's to Greg_W for posting something postitive, thanks man!

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

I think it would be a hoot to put on some wool knickers, red socks, a little white cap, some tricouni nailed boots, a goldline, and a rack of pins and go wander around Smith asking questions.

 

 

At the rate the number of trad climbers at Smith seems to be increasing lately, it's probably just a matter of time before someone shows up in similar attire and accoutrements.

[Bug]

Brand new webbing with new knots will slip out occaissionally. After a couple years they lock up and you can't get them to come apart. I still check every knot every time I go climbing and several times while I am on the rock.

Last year my ice axe leash, which I tied onto the ice axe at least five years ago with a water knot, came off. The knot just came loose and came apart. It wasn't in a dire circumstance, but it sure surprised me, since I hadn't noticed it getting loose, and I'd think I'd have at least casually inspected the knot each time I used the ice axe.

 

 

I weight the slings regularly with tension and falls etc. I didn't realize we were discussing ice ax slings. But take it where ever you like it.

[Alpine_Tom]

Brand new webbing with new knots will slip out occaissionally. After a couple years they lock up and you can't get them to come apart. I still check every knot every time I go climbing and several times while I am on the rock.

Last year my ice axe leash, which I tied onto the ice axe at least five years ago with a water knot, came off. The knot just came loose and came apart. It wasn't in a dire circumstance, but it sure surprised me, since I hadn't noticed it getting loose, and I'd think I'd have at least casually inspected the knot each time I used the ice axe.

 

 

I weight the slings regularly with tension and falls etc. I didn't realize we were discussing ice ax slings. But take it where ever you like it.

My point was simply that a knot tied into a fabric sling for several years and inspected regularly managed to work itself loose without my noticing. Sorry if you don't find that germane.