rayborbon Posted April 17, 2002 Posted April 17, 2002 I know who bolted that thing next to dogleg. I think maybe it is ok but it has been lead on gear. It's pretty fun. If you restore it I recommend leaving the chains at least so you dont have to belay off of the tree as you get no directional.. Quote
Dru Posted April 17, 2002 Posted April 17, 2002 A consensus should be reached with a good ol fashion bar brawl at Gustav's. I will keep score if supplied with Beer. Quote
allthumbs Posted April 17, 2002 Posted April 17, 2002 I'm up for a brawl, but only if I can wear a helmet and crampons. Quote
specialed Posted April 17, 2002 Posted April 17, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Crackbolter: "Right now, Leavenworth climbing has no moral conscience. I am suggesting that one be developed. From your comments I can only conclude that your reasoning only goes as far as " more bolts are better" or "it is ok for anyone do drill anywhere". You are welcome to add your opinions toward the development of a "conscience", especially if it goes further than "you suck"." I will keep an eye out for you on lead turtling up a 5.5 trad route and then my partner will simulclimb past you clipping your gear as we go and then when we get to the top we will be sure to knock a couple of baseball sized trundlers while peeing down that 5.5 you so aestheticially shall ascend. Did I mention after you go home there will be nice rap anchors every 20 feet so I don't have to carry so much rope? I will solo past you simul-turtling up 5.5 and poop down upon you from great heights so I don't have to carry so much weight [ 04-17-2002, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: specialed ] Quote
Retrosaurus Posted April 18, 2002 Posted April 18, 2002 Crackhead, sounds like you and I should go climbing. Fuck the rope. Quote
pope Posted April 18, 2002 Author Posted April 18, 2002 quote: Originally posted by TimL: Great another topic on bolting. Thanks for adding fuel to the fire Pope. Pope and Mitch - you guys suck. Maybe Retro, Pope and Bill Robbins can get together and have a crow bar 3 way. Retro - Correct me if I'm wrong, but you've sunk several bolts into Leavenworth rock. JY crag ring a bell? Retro - Who the fuck made YOU the moral conscience of Leavenworth climbing? From your spray, its seems like you've done more to take away from Leavenworth climbing then top add to it. I see nothing positive about your statements. I've never been an advocate of bolting natural lines. With all this talk of "restoration" I see a witch hunt attitude being taken that can only be a hindrance. Let's say this restoration forum becomes a reality. Then posts like the one above would probably be ignored, since Mr. TimL has nothing constructive to say about the effort to retard unrestrained retro-bolting. I'm not putting another paragraph into trying to convince anybody that bolting should be a last resort, that climbers should respect boldness and limit the amount of engineering they're willing to leave on a cliff. This new forum would not be a place to debate, bitch and whine. Instead, climbers who are disgusted with unrestrained bolting could simply exchange ideas on how to best REVERSE the damage. Quote
pope Posted April 18, 2002 Author Posted April 18, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Rafael H: The face route to the right of the Dogleg is a very good, non-trivial 10a and a good lead climb. It’s been there for two years. Removing it is completely unreasonable! As would be any L-worth bolted slab route!!! Last year I asked to list all the bolted cracks and got a measly 15 routes, 90 percent are in Vantage. And “poop” didn’t even respond. Is he just looking for confrontation? Radical anti-bolt actions will not help the problem of (more and more commonplace) overbolting. Rather the problem is (and will be) dismissed along with annoying, and incapable, Poup and Co. A consensus needs to be built, not confrontation. Actually, that route has been top-roped since long before I started climbing 18 years ago. Every climber until only recently respected the choice others had made to leave it as a top-rope, since it's only a practice cliff and since the top has easy, easy access. Given that the route has been climbed on lead without bolts, it should never have been turned into a chicken-shit sport route. Bolt clipping on steep slabs is well-established on the 4th-of-July Wall, and so within a short drive of Dogleg Crack, you can clip all the bolts you wish. There is absolutely no argument for turning that TR next to Dogleg Crack into a sport route. And while we're at it, Smoot's Falcon guide shows a line of bolts leading directly up JY slab to join Armed Forces Crack at the top. He says the route is just left of the crack and calls it Ragweed, but the route just left of the crack used to be called Rock Bottom (it was 5.10R/X...I led the route with Beth Filiman in '92). I'm a little confused. Does anybody know whether the slab just left of Armed Forces has been bolted? If so, it needs to go. It's been top-roped a million times, and it's been led without bolts. Rafael, I'm not looking for a confrontation. I'm looking for a few good men who are willing to say, "Enough already." What I would greatly respect is one climber coming out on this site to say he is thinking of retro-bolting a route and saying he would like some consensus first. That is something we haven't seen yet, and it's part of the reason Pope is finished bitching about bolts. Quote
max Posted April 18, 2002 Posted April 18, 2002 Let's quit all this name calling, slandering, and subjective arguments. Let's try to get some CONSTRUCTIVE and OBJECTIVE ideas out. I'll start. 1. No future retro-bolting w/o first acsentionists nod and any route that has been retrobolted in the last five years w/o first ascentionist's ok gets yanked. Lets get a poll on this. If people are serious about "cleaning up" the icicle, they need to do so in an objective way. Otherwise, their simply a lynch mob! As for my opinoion, I'd love to see fewer bolt in the icicle and I've climbed routes before and after retro-bolting that seriuosly loose thier character w/ sissy bolts. But I sure as hell don't want some bull-headed, self rightous grumpy-pants deciding what gets pulled (no names mentioned!) Lets try to cut the crap and address this issue like adults. As stated above, this means we need to establish some objective rules for placing and pulling bolts. Quote
scott_harpell Posted April 18, 2002 Posted April 18, 2002 max- i agree i think tht your proposals are fair for both sides. Very diplomatic. I agree that as a community we ought to agree to some baisic principals regarding bolting and the "first ascentionists' nod" is a great idea.... lets get that poll going.... Quote
Retrosaurus Posted April 18, 2002 Posted April 18, 2002 quote: Originally posted by max: But I sure as hell don't want some bull-headed, self rightous grumpy-pants deciding what gets pulled (no names mentioned!) That's me, of course. And I don't want to be deciding how much is too much either. But, if no one else does, then I will. Quote
Dave_Schuldt Posted April 18, 2002 Posted April 18, 2002 Glad to see that another important issue has devolved int o a spray fest with sexual overtones. Keep in mind that the Forest Service could be watching this. They hate climbers already in Lworth and this may look realy bad. Quote
halfpint Posted April 18, 2002 Posted April 18, 2002 i'm curious to know what kind of drilling is acceptable and who is to really decide which bolts go and which bolts stay-are you guys the end all do all decision makers? who gave you that power? you are a pretty narrow lot when you consider the size of the entire climbing community. Quote
halfpint Posted April 18, 2002 Posted April 18, 2002 sorry, it looks as though i missed a substantial amount of chatter before i posted. you guys already answered my questions. as far as i'm concerned pull the bolts on retrobolted climbs- but first, make sure that the first ascentionist wasn't agreeable to the retro bolting. top-ropes do not count as lesitimate ascents, as far as i'm concerned. but people do need to be able to put up new lines. P.S. fuck Vantage! Quote
scott_harpell Posted April 18, 2002 Posted April 18, 2002 ps fuck you half pint. if you cant climb a protectable route without bolting it up, top rope it, or climb it when your balls have grown larger than raisins. there is no excuse for bolting a crack....if you cant protect it, someone can, and will.... Quote
Charlie Posted April 18, 2002 Posted April 18, 2002 F@#ck all of you. (for no particular reason) Quote
Dru Posted April 18, 2002 Posted April 18, 2002 BAR brawl not NET brawl. take this flame war offline!!! mayhem!!! where is my beer Quote
Retrosaurus Posted April 18, 2002 Posted April 18, 2002 quote: Originally posted by halfpint: top-ropes do not count as lesitimate ascents, as far as i'm concerned. but people do need to be able to put up new lines. Halfpint, Do you think that a route that has been top-roped for 20 years is a legitimate target for a power drill? And if it has also been lead on gear, is it still OK to bolt? And if it is not OK to bolt and somebody does, what then? Quote
RURP Posted April 18, 2002 Posted April 18, 2002 This is RURP. Halfpint, he said: a) "who is to really decide which bolts go and which bolts stay-are you guys the end all do all decision makers?" b)"who gave you that power?" c)"you are a pretty narrow lot when you consider the size of the entire "climbing community." I have the easy and best answer to these questions. a) RURP will decide. b) RURP has the power. c) Climbing "community"? You must be joking. There is only such a thing in the most broad definition of community. Do you really think "voting" will decide this old issue? Does a majority vote of 5:1 sporty-climbers vs. tradsters result in a more ethical decision? That is doubtful. It is anarchy out there so you may refer to a) and b) above. RURP has spoken. Quote
Retrosaurus Posted April 18, 2002 Posted April 18, 2002 It will help a lot to file out the notch in the crowbar to completely fit around the shank of the bolt. The route on the right edge of the slab on Little Bridge Creek Rock needs to go; it protects with normal gear. What about the 5.10 tr variation to Dogleg Crack that is now bolted? Before someone bolts it. I lead one of the 5.10 tr routes on 8-mile Rock to the right of Deception Crack a few years ago. We need the forum to protect the rock from errant bolting and unskillful bolt removal. I think we need a solid list of drilled bastardizations and a weekend where we go out as an organized group to clean them up. Everyone will learn a lot. Not the least of which is what kind of drilling will be tolerated. Quote
Greg_W Posted April 18, 2002 Posted April 18, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Retrosaurus: I think we need a solid list of drilled bastardizations and a weekend where we go out as an organized group to clean them up. Everyone will learn a lot. Not the least of which is what kind of drilling will be tolerated. I'd donate beer and time to an endeavor like that... Quote
scott_harpell Posted April 18, 2002 Posted April 18, 2002 retro- i dont have any experience in bolt remonal.... but i would love to learn from someone experienced... let me know when you guys are going... that is if you want someone to tag along.... cheers Quote
Marcus_Engley Posted April 18, 2002 Posted April 18, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Retrosaurus: What about the 5.10 tr variation to Dogleg Crack that is now bolted? Toproped this route this weekend, and I'd say that it IS independent enough to be its own line, and that it wouldn't protect naturally. That said, we toproped it, and had plenty of fun. I was surprised to find it bolted when we got there... Quote
erik Posted April 18, 2002 Posted April 18, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Marcus Engley: quote:Originally posted by Retrosaurus: What about the 5.10 tr variation to Dogleg Crack that is now bolted? Toproped this route this weekend, and I'd say that it IS independent enough to be its own line, and that it wouldn't protect naturally. That said, we toproped it, and had plenty of fun. I was surprised to find it bolted when we got there... so since you can top rope it easily, are you still saying that there needs to be bolts there???? i dont think so... top roping a route works fine and lessens the impact you have to the cliff and keeps the unsightly bolts away...... people top roped problems are great and in my book take nothing away from ones ego or stature as a climber.......cuz we all know thats what it is about....... so maybe we need to stop the bolting for awhile?? and maybe slowly advance on the "restoration" of routes for a bit too...... Quote
Marcus_Engley Posted April 18, 2002 Posted April 18, 2002 quote: Originally posted by erik: quote:Originally posted by Marcus Engley: Toproped this route this weekend, and I'd say that it IS independent enough to be its own line, and that it wouldn't protect naturally. That said, we toproped it, and had plenty of fun. I was surprised to find it bolted when we got there... so since you can top rope it easily, are you still saying that there needs to be bolts there???? people top roped problems are great and in my book take nothing away from ones ego or stature as a climber.......cuz we all know thats what it is about....... Read the second sentence in my post. I could care less if the bolts were there, b/c, as I said, I had fun TRing it. It wouldn't be an especially challenging lead, as there's only really one crux, and the hardest moves are with a bolt at your waist. My post was only a data point, not an argument for, or against, the bolting. m Quote
TimL Posted April 18, 2002 Posted April 18, 2002 Great another topic on bolting. Thanks for adding fuel to the fire Pope. Pope and Mitch - you guys suck. Maybe Retro, Pope and Bill Robbins can get together and have a crow bar 3 way. Retro - Correct me if I'm wrong, but you've sunk several bolts into Leavenworth rock. JY crag ring a bell? Retro - Who the fuck made YOU the moral conscience of Leavenworth climbing? From your spray, its seems like you've done more to take away from Leavenworth climbing then top add to it. I see nothing positive about your statements. I've never been an advocate of bolting natural lines. With all this talk of "restoration" I see a witch hunt attitude being taken that can only be a hindrance. Quote
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