Some thoughts on risk and injury

[dryad]

A number of recent threads about bold climbs, and climbing accidents where those involved were being second-guessed almost instantly, inspired this series of thoughts regarding risk and injury. It seems like if you get injured, it's hard to get any kind of real sympathy. It's seen as some kind of character flaw - you didn't place good enough pro, or inadequately assessed avy conditions, or shouldn't have been on that route to begin with, or whatever. But on the other hand, if you do something risky and succeed, you get accolades. To pick an arbitrary example, if Wayne got hurt on his trip up Logan's NW Ridge, would he be lauded for a valiant effort, or be flamed for being dumb enough to want to free-solo it to begin with? I would expect more the latter than the former. Is it just that everybody loves a winner and nobody loves a loser? Now, I don't really have a point here. I'm just commenting on my perceptions of the climbing culture.

[Jopa]

I have similar thoughts/wonders. I believe the reason for the "flaming" is because it is a way for climbers to rationalize their activity. If we are able to pick out flaws or mistakes in another climber's accident, it allows us to rationalize to ourselves that climbing in itself is OK. I don't think this is exclusive to climbing, though. Anytime a car accident occurs, or a plane goes down, it seems that reactions are similar to a climbing accident. The public points out flaws (mechanics failed to see the engine failure...blah blah) and then we can all go back to trusting our infrastructure again. Structural reinforcement exists everywhere, not just in climbing.

 

Good topic

[catbirdseat]

So you are saying that by picking apart the actions of others we are denying the inherent risk so that we can believe we can avoid risk ourselves? I'll buy that.

[Bug]

Or, is it that the media we are communicating on has a tendency to make our words abstractions that do not readily connect to a human and therefore are more acceptable to attack?

[kailas]

It's not "the climbing culture' it's the American view of the climbing culture. I've been all over the world and it's only in America that people act this way, I believe it's become part of our culture to second guess everything, and I put it squarely on the shoulders of the American media. Also in the context of the internet its about insecurity and anonymity. Most people in these chat rooms are new to climbing, not a lot of experience, so they want to validate their own selves, and this can be easily done in the hidden world of chat rooms. The only thing to do from others mistakes in the world of climbing is to learn from them and not repeat them.

[Lambone]

Yesterday one of my best friends passed into the afterlife as a result of a wakeboarding injury. He once was a hardcore climber, until he took a small fall and hit his head. That fall scared him, and he sort of moved away from climbing and toward wakeboarding.

 

He died as a result of a severe concusion from hitting the water, which caused swelling of the brain, the treatment of which resulted in pneumonia like symtoms, which eventually took his life.

 

The kicker is that at the time of the injury he was riding with an ongoing concusion, and he knew it. Yet he still pushed himself to go bigger and faster and better than he had ever been, in the face of the risks. And as a paramedic, I'm sure he was aware of the risks he was taking.

 

So how do his friends resist the temptation to cast blame on Ryan for this tragedy. Why didn't he stop?

 

I've thought alot aout this over the last few weeks while Ryan has been in a coma. I have come to the conclusion that to blame him for the risk he took is like trying to ignore the person he was. He was a man of extremes, a person who took things to the limit, allways. It was part of who he was, it was in his blood, and to blame him for that is just unfair. Because take that away from him and he wouldn't have been the same person we loved.

 

I think a similar theme carries on with alot of climbers, myself included. We live to face risks, we thrive on it, we yearn for it, we sit on the internet and bullshit all day about those risks counting down the minutes until we can take them again.

 

When a climber or friend triumphs in the face of risk, we like to share in the success with praise, props, beers, whatever. When they fail in the face of risk it is our nature to cast blame upon them. To say it was their fault for this reason or that. This is the easiest way to ignore the fact that sometimes...shit happens. It's the easiest way to ignore our own fears, that shit can happen to you, me, or anyone just as easily as it happened to my friend Ryan.

 

Sorry to get all heady here, it's been a rough day.

[catbirdseat]

Nice post, Lambone. My condolences.

[minx]

a friend of mine broke her elbow falling of her horse. her husband was furious b/c he had asked her countless times to give up such a risky sport. shortly after her accident he broke his elbow walking into the kitchen from the living room. i guess he better give up getting his own coffee from the kitchen

 

in other words shite happens. some of us choose risky passtimes to fill our lives others of us sit on the couch and develop coronary artery blockages. something's gonna get ya sooner or later.

[David_Parker]

ditto for LAmbone's post I like to celebrate a life rather than mourn a death. People like to call bullshit on the saying "at least he died doing what he loved". I call bullshit on that. Nothing wrong with that saying. It's not how you die, but how you live your life as long or short as it may be. We all accept the risk that comes with climbing even if we tend to sweep it under the rug.

Edited October 28, 2003 by David_Parker

[bunglehead]

David_Parker said:

ditto. I like to celebrate la ife rather than mourn a death. People like to call bullshit on the saying "at least he died doing what he loved". I call bullshit on that. Nothing wrong with that saying. It's not how you die, but how you live your life as long or short as it may be. We all accept the risk that comes with climbing even if we tend to sweep it under the rug.

 

I agree. I'd hate it if I died, my 'rents put something in my obit like

"We always told him those types of activities were dangerous, and now look at him"

 

Choices that expose an individual to risk are the essence of freedom of choice. I mean if you think about it, every time you order a salad in a restaurant you're exposing yourself to risk.

 

I say do what makes you happy. If it invloves hazards or risks, minimze them, and go for it. Life is short.

Enjoy it while you can.

[Bug]

David_Parker said:

ditto for LAmbone's post I like to celebrate a life rather than mourn a death. People like to call bullshit on the saying "at least he died doing what he loved". I call bullshit on that. Nothing wrong with that saying. It's not how you die, but how you live your life as long or short as it may be. We all accept the risk that comes with climbing even if we tend to sweep it under the rug.

Yeah. Party if I die in the mountains. Chances are better that I will die on 405 on my way home. THAT would suck. Of course, I do not WANT to die in the mountains because then my wife would stand over my grave and say "I told you so." Only my friends would know that I had lived a good life. But if I had a choice, and I guess I do but we could all live in Oklahoma too, I would rather die in bed having climbed everything my body was able to, right up to the last day it was able to. And while I am laying there in bed dying and my wife asks me what I would like her to tell our children, I will say "Climb hard. Breathe deep. Dive into a high lake and dry off in the sun. It doesn't get any better than that."

[olyclimber]

I have always viewed those who flame or show a lack of sympathy (especially on cc.com, because we're all climbers, wannabees or experts) for those injured or killed climbing as people who are insecure in their climbing ablility. They might actually be great climbers, but they are insecure. (Myself, I am not a great climber, and I'm secure with that for now. I'm working on it) The fact is we could be killed anywhere, and stupid decisions or chance that kills people occurs everywhere, not just in the mountains. While almost every accident can be attributed to human error on some level, that error was not that they were or are climbers. It can be a set of conditions that could happen to the most skilled people, like a non-lethal fall that leads to lethal decisions afterwards. I wish that people would show more respect, but then you just have to feel sorry that they go through their lives feeling so insecure.

[j_b]

kailas said:

It's not "the climbing culture' it's the American view of the climbing culture. I've been all over the world and it's only in America that people act this way, I believe it's become part of our culture to second guess everything, and I put it squarely on the shoulders of the American media. Also in the context of the internet its about insecurity and anonymity. Most people in these chat rooms are new to climbing, not a lot of experience, so they want to validate their own selves, and this can be easily done in the hidden world of chat rooms. The only thing to do from others mistakes in the world of climbing is to learn from them and not repeat them.

 

[lummox]

j_b said:

kailas said:

It's not "the climbing culture' it's the American view of the climbing culture. I've been all over the world and it's only in America that people act this way, I believe it's become part of our culture to second guess everything, and I put it squarely on the shoulders of the American media. Also in the context of the internet its about insecurity and anonymity. Most people in these chat rooms are new to climbing, not a lot of experience, so they want to validate their own selves, and this can be easily done in the hidden world of chat rooms. The only thing to do from others mistakes in the world of climbing is to learn from them and not repeat them.

 

'I put it squarely on the shoulders of the American media.'

ya. you and rush limbaugh.

btw validate this:

[sk]

Bug said:

David_Parker said:

ditto for LAmbone's post I like to celebrate a life rather than mourn a death. People like to call bullshit on the saying "at least he died doing what he loved". I call bullshit on that. Nothing wrong with that saying. It's not how you die, but how you live your life as long or short as it may be. We all accept the risk that comes with climbing even if we tend to sweep it under the rug.

Yeah. Party if I die in the mountains. Chances are better that I will die on 405 on my way home. THAT would suck. Of course, I do not WANT to die in the mountains because then my wife would stand over my grave and say "I told you so." Only my friends would know that I had lived a good life. But if I had a choice, and I guess I do but we could all live in Oklahoma too, I would rather die in bed having climbed everything my body was able to, right up to the last day it was able to. And while I am laying there in bed dying and my wife asks me what I would like her to tell our children, I will say "Climb hard. Breathe deep. Dive into a high lake and dry off in the sun. It doesn't get any better than that."

well said and I MUCH AGREE

[chucK]

Great posts here.

 

To get back to Dryad's original point, I think perhaps her negative view of the climbing culture is more in the eye of the beholder. I think her well chosen words speak directly to the point:

 

"it's hard to get any kind of real sympathy."

 

There are often expressions of sympathy after the accident reports; however, noone thinks much of them as real sympathy, but more as rote condolences, since the poster doesn't know the victims or their family any more than we know Elvis. On the other hand, if something negative is said about the victims, plenty of people think that is harsh, whether we know them or not. So basically I think the sympathies are balanced with the attacks, but the attacks for some reason seem more genuine and stick in our minds.

 

I believe this theory is born out by the flipside. When the victims are personally known by people on the board it seems like, if anything, the tendency is more toward true sympathies rather than blame laying. When the victim is known it seems like the naysayers generally hold their tongues.

 

Thus for the same reason that sympathies for an anonymous victim seem hollow, casting blame on anonymous victims doesn't seem as ugly. This allows people to act the cad and call dead folks idiots.

[forrest_m]

I’ve made this analogy before, I couldn’t find it with the search… I was a dinner party a few years ago and ran into a climber I knew. The conversation turned to a recent climbing accident. A non-climber listening in accused us of being morbid by discussing the details, but then another guy chimed in who was a commercial pilot, ex military pilot. He thought it was the most normal thing in the world. He explained that in aviation culture, pilots are encouraged to report even minor mistakes that didn’t lead to an accident, and discussion of accidents and close calls made up a large part of pilot shop talk. In his view, it was this ravenous dissection of incidents that kept aviation relatively safe – considering that it is an inherently dangerous enterprise.

 

Obviously, some of the post-accident chatter (climbing or flying) is Monday morning quarterbacking of the “it wouldn’t have happened to me” variety. Nevertheless, in a lot of cases, the cause of an accident is not obvious. Usually, more than one thing has to go wrong before someone gets killed. If we are to learn anything from these incidents, we have to analyze them. It’s not as simple as just “don’t repeat the mistakes.” I think the key is to try to be a bit humble – how many things have you done that make a funny story now that would appear foolish if they had happened in the prelude to a serious accident?

 

At the same time, I think it is important to try to maintain a certain level of decorum in this kind of discussion. I personally know of one accident after which the parents of the deceased spent weeks scanning the internet for any mention of their son. My guess is that this is not uncommon.

[dryad]

What I was trying to address originally had more to do with the reactions to taking risk depending on outcome. Back to the original arbitrary example, Wayne's success was greeted with lots of and , as it righfully should, but no "Dude, it's great you made it but that was a pretty dumb thing to do". People are generally encouraged to push themselves and take risks (to some extent) and they're applauded if they succeed, but they have their judgement and decision to take that risk called into question if something goes wrong.

[cracked]

chucK said:

Great posts here.

 

To get back to Dryad's original point, I think perhaps her negative view of the climbing culture is more in the eye of the beholder. I think her well chosen words speak directly to the point:

 

"it's hard to get any kind of real sympathy."

 

There are often expressions of sympathy after the accident reports; however, noone thinks much of them as real sympathy, but more as rote condolences, since the poster doesn't know the victims or their family any more than we know Elvis. On the other hand, if something negative is said about the victims, plenty of people think that is harsh, whether we know them or not. So basically I think the sympathies are balanced with the attacks, but the attacks for some reason seem more genuine and stick in our minds.

 

I believe this theory is born out by the flipside. When the victims are personally known by people on the board it seems like, if anything, the tendency is more toward true sympathies rather than blame laying. When the victim is known it seems like the naysayers generally hold their tongues.

 

Thus for the same reason that sympathies for an anonymous victim seem hollow, casting blame on anonymous victims doesn't seem as ugly. This allows people to act the cad and call dead folks idiots.

 

I somewhat disagree. As climbers, we are part of a small community. When someone in that community dies or gets hurt, it strikes closer to home than when the same happens to someone that we truly have no connection to. I have some friends who are into skiing truly nasty terrain. Hence, when I read about the skier/boarder fatalities on St. Elias, it hit home, as one of the unfortunates could have been one of my friends. Same with climbers. The guys who died on Snow Creek Wall are a prime example. I had no idea who these guys were. But one of my friends knew one of them. Could have been me, or someone I know. Due to this effect, I think most people do not offer condolences as a mindless courtesy. They mean it.

 

As for the flame wars, I have noticed the flaming occurs usually when someone gets into trouble up there, but makes it out fine. Look at the Lambone/Glacier Peak thread. People are worried when their friends are in trouble, even if they know that person only through internet contact or common friends.

 

As for risk, I think about the risks I take often. I don't know why I climb, as it is an unnecessary risk we choose to take. That's probably part of the attraction, but I'm not sure.

 

Here's to life.

[Bug]

dryad said:

What I was trying to address originally had more to do with the reactions to taking risk depending on outcome. Back to the original arbitrary example, Wayne's success was greeted with lots of and , as it righfully should, but no "Dude, it's great you made it but that was a pretty dumb thing to do". People are generally encouraged to push themselves and take risks (to some extent) and they're applauded if they succeed, but they have their judgement and decision to take that risk called into question if something goes wrong.

When I "Yo Dude " someone for doing something bold, it is because I have been there and felt very alive and incredibly free. Hearing someone else's account puts me back there for a fleeting moment and I have to smile.

When someone dies and the shit flies, it is inevitable that someone out there would have done it differently and can tell that at a glance. That they are brash and disrespectful is not a good thing but to rehash a worthwhile point most certainly is. If the style of it stirs you to think about it more, then you are all the more edified by the encounter.

As we explore this medium and define our social norms, we will find ourselves changing. That can only happen if we step outside of "acceptable" boundaries now and then. Experiment. We do need to change or find a new planet. Beem me up.

[j_b]

dryad said:

What I was trying to address originally had more to do with the reactions to taking risk depending on outcome. Back to the original arbitrary example, Wayne's success was greeted with lots of and , as it righfully should, but no "Dude, it's great you made it but that was a pretty dumb thing to do". People are generally encouraged to push themselves and take risks (to some extent) and they're applauded if they succeed, but they have their judgement and decision to take that risk called into question if something goes wrong.

 

soloing is a perfectly acceptable mode of climbing (not for the general public and this is reinforced but media approach to the problem). among climbers criticism arise if the soloist attempted something beyond his/her abilities but that is no different than analysing an accident due to human error. the later approach is valid because it allows us to identify unwanted behavior and reduce risk.

[Billygoat]

You gotta die sometime...

 

Kailas, right on that. People in America tend to look for some one to blame

[Peter_Puget]

Over the years I have had many friends die while climbing. Mostly in the moutains but several rock climbing as well. One of my earliest memories multipitch climbing was seeing blood stains at the base of a wall where someone died. As a youngster the blood was merely added a sense of spice to the game. Now that I am older I find it much easier to empathize with the friends and family of an accident victim and view climbing as an essentially empty activity. If someone really thinks that a climbing success is worth a significant risk my first impulse to feel sadness at how shallow their view of their own life is and how little potential they can see in the future. A while ago a friend of mine climbed a bit with a climber well known for climbing solo in Colorado, I went there for a visit and came away convinced that his behavior was the result of something close to what would otherwise be construed as a mental health problem. The climber later died while soling. A climber from my hometown in CA was well known for his soloing epics suffered from manic depression disorder and later committed suicide. As a young teen I remember being very impressed by him. To the extent the climbing “community” exalted these people it acted poorly.

 

Gotta work will finish these thoughts later....

 

Pp

[Stefan]

I suspect many of you who have responded have not had an accident.

 

I have been a victim of a climbing accident whereby I know I am fortunate to be writing this response to you right now. I have seen both sides of the coin. Albeit more positive than negative, but I suspect a lot of folk don't want to talk negative to me becuase that might not be considered kosher.

 

I did receive actual sympathy from people who were personally close to me and not so close to me. I got flamed a little bit here on cascadeclimbers.com for my accident too which someone thought I did something wrong. No big deal, just different opinion. (I will never know what actually went wrong.)

 

I see the same thing with firefighters. If one dies, there is an investigation and usually someone is assessed blame. But if one lives through a harrowing experience, his buddies slap him on the back and make him buy ice cream for the rest of the crew.

 

I now see injuries and death different of climbers. If an accident occurs I have empathy for what climbers and the family/friends of the climbers are going through, and I wish all the lives affected can be returned to normalacy as quickly as possible.

 

After my accident, Dru congratulated me on bagging my summit (the accident occurred after the summit). I will cherish that memory of his congratulations forever in my life.

[lummox]

dryad said:

It seems like if you get injured, it's hard to get any kind of real sympathy. It's seen as some kind of character flaw

werd. but if you had already incorporated the western anti-hero image epitomized by characters in serigo leone films you woulnt think it was so strange.