5 reasons to tie in...

[EWolfe]

with a bowline or variant:

 

 

1. easily adjustable knot.

2. doesn't jam even under heavy weighting.

3. tail runs back to harness rather than out & ITW ! (as mentioned, returning knot thru 8 does this too)

4. No knot to forget to untie after climb.

5. Can't be mis-tied like fig-8. It's right or it's doesn't hold together.

 

Advantages/disadvantages?

 

 

[Thinker]

CAN easily be mistied with the tail on the outside of the loop, instead of on the inside (Anyone who has tied a bowline will know what I'm talking about.)

 

plus, the knot needs to be retightend on a regular basis to prevent it from disintegrating.

Edited October 24, 2003 by Thinker

[EWolfe]

Thinker said:

CAN easily be mistied with the tail on the outside of the loop, instead of on the inside (Anyone who has tied a bowline will know what I'm talking about.)

 

plus, the knot needs to be retightend on a regular basis to prevent it from disintegrating.

 

Hmmm, never "mis-tied" a bowline.

I use a double loop bowline exclusively.

 

A simple bakup knot on the loop takes care of the second problem.

[RuMR]

I'm w/ Mr. E on this one! Double bowline rethread w/ tail and tie off...can't be mistied...can't be partially tied...

[catbirdseat]

Bowline not as strong as figure eight and does not absorb energy like an eight.

[RuMR]

Stupid point...you generate enough force to break a bowline, you're screwed anyway...

[daler]

Actually many people wrongly tie the bowline by finishing the tail on the wrong side.

 

Not giving you a hard time Erik!!!!

 

 

[MysticNacho]

Witnessed a guy at vantage a couple of years ago fall off the feathers from mis-tying a bowline. Put him in a coma. Lot's of other CC.comers there.

[EWolfe]

RuMR said:

Stupid point...you generate enough force to break a bowline, you're screwed anyway...

 

, Rudy!

 

That is such CBS

 

[scott_harpell]

RuMR said:

Stupid point...you generate enough force to break a bowline, you're screwed anyway...

 

[mattp]

The distinction between an "inside bowline" and an "outside bowline" is not know to most people. I'm not sure if I can explain it much better than Thinker did but if you tie a bowline and look at the tail end coming out of the knot, it can either be inside the loop that you have created or outside it - with both variations looking and feeling like a bowline. Mr. E may never have made the mistake of tying the "outside bowline" but in any knot class you will be told the "inside bowline" is better. I'm not sure, but it may be that we have all been told the inside bowline is better precisely because of where the tail runs rather than the fact that the knot is actually stronger that way.

 

RuMR is on the right track here, I'd say. Strength is not the issue for your tie-in knot -- the possibility for knot failure and ease of tying/untying, and management of the tail, and things like that are much more of a concern.

[Thinker]

right:

 

wrong:

[Gordonb]

I find after a couple good falls on a figure 8 (I weigh 210 lbs) it is almost impossible to get it untied. Near the end of the day when I am flamed out I can waste 15 minutes struggling with the knot. I have gone to the double bowline and I am much happier.

 

If I am on a long multi pitch it is not as big a deal since I am not falling and untying as much.

[Dru]

Bowline knots are stupid and for people who want to pretend they are old skool and stupid and stupid. And faux-old school and stuff. Stupid.

[Thinker]

from an objective source (http://www.rockandpaddle.com/rock_climbing.htm#Tying Knots):

The Double Bowline

Despite its wonderful quality of being easy to untie after hanging and falling, it consequently has been known to loosen on its own when unattended, such as on a big wall. It is also not as easy to recognize if tied incorrectly. However, with proper supervision, and a secure back-up knot, it can also be used as a knot for climbing.

[dkemp]

Checking the tie-in knot is crucial. My perception is that the bowline is difficult to check after its tied - figure 8 is easy to check.

[EWolfe]

MysticNacho said:

Witnessed a guy at vantage a couple of years ago fall off the feathers from mis-tying a bowline. Put him in a coma. Lot's of other CC.comers there.

 

That is truly unfortunate, I have never had that happen.

Definitely on the list to check for now.

Also, a disadvantage.

 

I started using it after repeated whippers at Smith, and I couldn't untie cuz I was so pumped. It's "knot" recommended for beginners, I guess.

[b-rock]

Gordonb said:

I find after a couple good falls on a figure 8 (I weigh 210 lbs) it is almost impossible to get it untied. Near the end of the day when I am flamed out I can waste 15 minutes struggling with the knot. I have gone to the double bowline and I am much happier.

 

If I am on a long multi pitch it is not as big a deal since I am not falling and untying as much.

 

A trick I read somewhere is to thread the rope through your harness twice before rethreading the 8, and this takes the bulk of the tension without tightening the knot too much. I use it on routes where I think I might be hanging a bit (wait, that's most routes... )

[Ursa_Eagle]

b-rock said:

A trick I read somewhere is to thread the rope through your harness twice before rethreading the 8, and this takes the bulk of the tension without tightening the knot too much. I use it on routes where I think I might be hanging a bit (wait, that's most routes... )

 

I'm curious as to how this works. The force transmitted to the rope remains the same regardless of how many times you go through your harness...

[catbirdseat]

I knew from sailing how to tie a bowline long before I ever knew how to tie a rewoven figure eight. I can tie it quickly while upside down, hanging by my toes, with a spray blasting me in the face. The figure eight is a better knot for climbing. The fact is born out by the number of people who use it.

[Thinker]

Dru said:

Bowline knots are stupid and for people who want to pretend they are old skool and stupid and stupid. And faux-old school and stuff. Stupid.

 

Yep, who needs to know a knot you can tie into a rope with when you don't have any other gear at hand? A bowline on a coil is absolutely worthless to practice. Who needs to know a knot you can tie around a tree with a bight in the middle of a rope?

 

One of my regular partners climbs using a bowline with a Yo finish. I trust him to tie it properly and maintain it throughout the day....but I do look at it at the belay stations to double check, and I'm sure he looks at my tie-in knot from time to time, too.

[rbw1966]

Ursa_Eagle said:

b-rock said:

A trick I read somewhere is to thread the rope through your harness twice before rethreading the 8, and this takes the bulk of the tension without tightening the knot too much. I use it on routes where I think I might be hanging a bit (wait, that's most routes... )

 

I'm curious as to how this works. The force transmitted to the rope remains the same regardless of how many times you go through your harness...

 

I do this most times when cragging. The same force is transmitted to the rope but the extra wrap around the harness lessens the amount of force transferred to the knot.

 

Or something like that.

 

I know it works--I've tested it in the field and have found that its much easier to untie the 8 after a double-wrap on my harness before re-threading.

[Thinker]

MisterE said:

with a bowline or variant:

1. easily adjustable knot.

2. doesn't jam even under heavy weighting.

3. tail runs back to harness rather than out & ITW ! (as mentioned, returning knot thru 8 does this too)

4. No knot to forget to untie after climb.

5. Can't be mis-tied like fig-8. It's right or it's doesn't hold together.

 

4. No knot to forget to untie after climb.

 

That in itself would unnerve me. Anyone else?

[AlpineK]

catbirdseat said:

Bowline not as strong as figure eight and does not absorb energy like an eight.

 

I think you need to study your knots a little more CBS. You always seem to come up with bad info; like saying a clove hitch isn't very strong, etc.

 

As an example: I drop chunks of wood that are heavier than most people on rope that is much more static than rock climbing rope, and the clove hitch is the knot of choice for a tie off knot. I've never had a c hitch fail; however from one of your posts a while back you said the knot was not very strong.

[cluck]

Agreed. It works.

 

Sure you have noticed that to properly snug up a well tied 8, you have to hold the knot and pull on each of the 4 strands that make up the knot individually.... rope side, 8 to harness, harness back to 8 and tail side out.

 

Putting the loops around the harness before reweaving the 8 means that when you hang dog or fall, the weight on the front side of the 8 pulls the loops snug, rather than transfering force back around to the other side of the knot and cinching it down hard. Loops are kind of like how the cowboys always just looped their reigns a few times around the hitching post and there is enough tension to keep their trusty side kick from running away. In the end, 2 parts of the knot pull tight instead of 3 and it is enough to make a dif.

 

It is hard to explain, but it def. makes getting 8 untied after hanging, falling a ton easier. Try it in the gym this Winter.