Forced to Work

[erik]

$33K IS NOT A LIVING WAGE? I FIND THAT HARD TO BELIEVE BACK WHEN I PAID TO LIVE...I MADE LESS THEN THAT AND LIVED A GRAND LIFE. HAD ALL THE TOYS I WANTED, A NEW TRUCK ALWAYS HAD A SATCHEL AND NEVER FRETED MONEY ONCE. I CANNOT SEE HOW $33K IS NOT A LIVING WAGE. YOU GET HALF THE YEAR OFF. WHY SHOULD ONE BE COMPENSTATED FOR NOT WORKING?

 

I HAVE PEOPLE TELL ME I AM AN ASSHOLE, THAT THEY ARE GOING TO HARM ME, THAT THEY HATE ME, I;VE RUINED THEIR LIVES AND I DO NOT MAKE THAT KIND OF MONEY FOR THE ABUSE I GET. I NEVER ONCE HAD A TEACHER INSPIRE ME TO GO THE DISTANCE, TO EXPERIENCE LIFE OR ANY OF THAT SHIT. I WENT CUZ I HAD TO AND IT IS REQUIRED TO FURTHER YOUR LIFE.

 

TEACHERS AND THE PEOPLE WHO SURROUND THEM I THINK PUT TOO MUCH STOCK IN THEIR JOBS NOW A DAYS. IT IS A JOB GET OVER IT.

 

 

[sal]

teachers starting out make more money than i did with an equivalent education.

 

teachers make enough money with enough time off that it's a career change that i've considered. the good ones deserve more the bad ones deserve less. until we figure out how to compensate them based on ability, i really don't want to hear about their salary woes.

[mr.radon]

Necronomicon said:

Dr. Moron,

You are an ingrate. "80% of school budget goes to paying teachers" No shit. What else would they spend their money on?

 

Your kids will end up as idiots, if you don't have HIGHLY PAID PROFESSIONALS teaching them. Would you want a poorly paid doctor doing an operation on them?

Administrative, facilities, books, facility maintenance, utilities, etc.... Your obviously spouting foul smelling crap and have no clue how the current education system runs. I'm actually making fun of the 80%. The teachers get a huge slice of the educational pie, their performance yardstick? Students who can't perform at their grade level. Students, even those who take "HONORS" courses, that need to take remedial classes just to catch up in college. If we spend so much money shouldn't we expect to have the smartest students? Why can private schools produce so much better results with there students for a fraction of the educational dollar public schools spend? I know that half of the battle lies in the home. Parents uninvolved with their kids education don't do as well as kids with parents that do. I've also helped my girlfriends grade their papers late into the night before I could get some. I didn't like coming in second to the students, so I know most teachers are dedicated, but the really good ones are turned off by the crap Unions pull, and at least the ones I've run into aren't in it for the money. How would you like a doctor operating on you because the Hospital had to re-instate him because the Union filed a complaint? Or because the best doctor didn't have seniority and a crappy doctor did you got stuck with a botched operation. At least when I needed an operation to my shoulder I could shop around for the best one. The crappy ones didn't get recommendations. If it works in the private sector shouldn't it work to improve our public schools. Everywhere vouchers or charter schools have been tried, parents fight to get there kids admitted? Who's the MORON?

Luckily for me I received some of my primary education outside the US. Entering grade school in the US without speaking the language. Twiddled my thumbs for two years until we started to cover stuff I hadn't learned yet.

An old girlfriend loved to teach. She quit a public school job to work at a private school (without a union) at $19K per year because she loved her job, thought parents would be more involved with their children’s education and didn't want to belong to a union.

There is zero correlation between teacher salary and quality of education.

Educate yourself a little before spouting off. We need to fix our broken public schools.

[sk]

muffy's take....

 

you could not pay me enough to be a teacher. I adore ADORE my own children.. and even some of my friends kids... but that is it. I have alot of respect for people who can do that. what makes me sad is that we pay more and more into the system and get less and less out of it

[allthumbs]

These bitch teachers that strike like they did in Marysville are loser motherfuckers and can go to hell, eat shit and die for all I care. Cunt motherfuckers

[Necronomicon]

mr.radon said:

Necronomicon said:

Dr. Moron,

You are an ingrate. "80% of school budget goes to paying teachers" No shit. What else would they spend their money on?

 

Your kids will end up as idiots, if you don't have HIGHLY PAID PROFESSIONALS teaching them. Would you want a poorly paid doctor doing an operation on them?

Administrative, facilities, books, facility maintenance, utilities, etc.... Your obviously spouting foul smelling crap and have no clue how the current education system runs. I'm actually making fun of the 80%. The teachers get a huge slice of the educational pie, their performance yardstick? Students who can't perform at their grade level. Students, even those who take "HONORS" courses, that need to take remedial classes just to catch up in college. If we spend so much money shouldn't we expect to have the smartest students? Why can private schools produce so much better results with there students for a fraction of the educational dollar public schools spend? I know that half of the battle lies in the home. Parents uninvolved with their kids education don't do as well as kids with parents that do. I've also helped my girlfriends grade their papers late into the night before I could get some. I didn't like coming in second to the students, so I know most teachers are dedicated, but the really good ones are turned off by the crap Unions pull, and at least the ones I've run into aren't in it for the money. How would you like a doctor operating on you because the Hospital had to re-instate him because the Union filed a complaint? Or because the best doctor didn't have seniority and a crappy doctor did you got stuck with a botched operation. At least when I needed an operation to my shoulder I could shop around for the best one. The crappy ones didn't get recommendations. If it works in the private sector shouldn't it work to improve our public schools. Everywhere vouchers or charter schools have been tried, parents fight to get there kids admitted? Who's the MORON?

Luckily for me I received some of my primary education outside the US. Entering grade school in the US without speaking the language. Twiddled my thumbs for two years until we started to cover stuff I hadn't learned yet.

An old girlfriend loved to teach. She quit a public school job to work at a private school (without a union) at $19K per year because she loved her job, thought parents would be more involved with their children’s education and didn't want to belong to a union.

There is zero correlation between teacher salary and quality of education.

Educate yourself a little before spouting off. We need to fix our broken public schools.

 

Dr. Moron,

 

First, try to use "paragraphs" to organize the seperate "ideas" within your posts. Include a "topic sentance" near the beginning of each "paragraph", so that I can skim your incoherent ramblings without having to read every word you've written.

 

Thank you for enlightening me about how public education works. I am a much better person, now, thanks to your expertise. I was such a know-nothing before.

 

With respect to shitty teachers, it is the ADMINISTRATION that hires SHITTY TEACHERS, and they can be fired FOR NO REASON within the first two years. After that, they have TENURE, at the discretion of the SCHOOL DISTRICT, so don't blame the unions, FOOL.

 

After our society collapses, because you under-appreciated the importance of education, and your children are filthy neo-barbarians wandering the ruins, I'll be sure to let them know that you're the reason why their lives suck so bad, before I execute them for trying to steal my food.

[rbw1966]

Mr. Radon's magnificent intelligence is readily apparent in his exceptional writing skills. Bravo to you Mr. Radon and bravo to your educators. They did themselves proud indeed.

 

Perhaps you should look beyond the teachers at such programs as "no child left behind," et al for causes of the decline in students abilities. Teachers have to give their students so many tests that they spend most of their classroom time teaching them the information on the tests rather than other things--this is of course an exageration but there is truth to this.

 

Oh, and lets not forget about all those wonderfully helpful and cooperative parents. My wife is a teacher and I get to hear it all. Of course, no one's angel is ever in trouble at school--its always the teachers fault. Parents bitch about too much homework or not enough homework; about teachers lack of education on moral and ethical matters and then bitch about how teachers are cramming their own morality down the throats of students.

 

Teaching is a job like any other. It has its bad apples and its stars. I'm no fan of unions but I am a fan of paying someone a living wage for their work.

 

Disclaimer: I am not in any way talking about the strike in WA. I don't know jack about it.

[Peter_Puget]

Jim said:

Generally she works 11-12 hours at school, with a couple of hours at home every night. Then at least 10 hours each weekend. Then you add evening presentations, parent meetings, etc

 

OK I know you are a family of scientists but are you sure of your calculation.

 

Your wife starts work at 7:30pm leaves school at 7:30pm gets home at say 8:pm eats dinner with you (1 hr) then works from 9:00pm to 11:pm M-F? Does anyone else think this is a bit of an exageration?

 

PP

[cj001f]

ehmmic said:

Yeah, CA seems like a joke of a state to live in right now, but for teachers it's a great place to be. Starting salary for a new teacher right out of school is about $40k. The cost of living is high in a lot of places, but at least they're getting paid a living wage.

$40k ain't squat in the Bay Area, and most of the school districts there are laying off all the newly hired teachers (gotta love seniority rules!). CA is not the place to be a teacher right now.

 

As for Firefighters - in San Fran there were something like 50 firefighters paid more than the chief - and he has a 6 figure salary.

[Jim]

Peter_Puget said:

Jim said:

Generally she works 11-12 hours at school, with a couple of hours at home every night. Then at least 10 hours each weekend. Then you add evening presentations, parent meetings, etc

 

OK I know you are a family of scientists but are you sure of your calculation.

 

Your wife starts work at 7:30pm leaves school at 7:30pm gets home at say 8:pm eats dinner with you (1 hr) then works from 9:00pm to 11:pm M-F? Does anyone else think this is a bit of an exageration?

 

PP

 

Seriously PP - no bullshitting. I would say the average day she gets to school by 7:15 and leaves by 6:30. I generally cook during the week, we eat, and she does a couple of hours of work. This past weekend she worked 3 hours on Saturday, and then went into school for 4 hours Sun afternoon in preparation for the parents open house on Thur this week. I'm just telling you like it is.

 

I'd say 75% of the teachers at her school have a similar schedule. They're very dedicated. If you're kid has them as a teacher, they're lucky.

[mr.radon]

Necronomicon said:

Dr. Moron,

 

First, try to use "paragraphs" to organize the separate "ideas" within your posts. Include a "topic sentence" near the beginning of each "paragraph", so that I can skim your incoherent ramblings without having to read every word you've written.

Why, you want me to dumb it down to your public education level?

BTW: I took the liberty to correct your spelling; separate not seperate & sentence not sentance.

 

Necronomicon said:

Thank you for enlightening me about how public education works. I am a much better person, now, thanks to your expertise. I was such a know-nothing before.

You're still a know-nothing. Obviously a wonder of uncaring parents and a failing public school system.

 

Necronomicon said:

With respect to shitty teachers, it is the ADMINISTRATION that hires SHITTY TEACHERS, and they can be fired FOR NO REASON within the first two years. After that, they have TENURE, at the discretion of the SCHOOL DISTRICT, so don't blame the unions, FOOL.

 

You are right, the administration hires good qualified teachers. However, it's the UNIONS that deny recognition to the good ones, protects the bad ones and doesn't give a crap about the students.

 

Necronomicon said:

After our society collapses, because you under-appreciated the importance of education, and your children are filthy neo-barbarians wandering the ruins, I'll be sure to let them know that you're the reason why their lives suck so bad, before I execute them for trying to steal my food.

Sorry, first thing I did was to teach my son to shoot (even before climbing). My arsenal includes several high powered, pre-Brady bill assault weapons along with a few dozen other assorted firearms. I'm going to be living high on the hog off your stash.

 

Sorry, but I care a lot about my son's education. I'm sure he'll do his part to keep the good'ol USA from falling into your neo-barbarian utopia.

Oh, and even an idiot can tell I appreciate our educators system. I just can't stand to see good minds wasted in a failing system.

[scrambler]

Teachers typically tend to spoon feed facts to their students. Instructors show you methods. Personally I believe that there comes a time in your life when education is your own responsibilty, especially in college or other higher education. A professor might be a guide but it's largely your own initiative to learn.

 

MIT (Mass. Institute of Tech.) offers a free and open educational source available for all.

link to MIT OpenCourseWare

 

"With the publication of 500 courses, MIT is delivering on the promise of OpenCourseWare that we made in 2001. We are thrilled that educators, students, and self-learners from all parts of the globe tell us that MIT OCW is having an impact on education and learning. We hope that in sharing MIT’s course materials, and our experience thus far with MIT OCW, we will inspire other institutions to openly share their course materials, creating a worldwide web of knowledge that will benefit mankind."

- Charles M. Vest, President of MIT

 

[JayB]

Ursa_Eagle said:

School teacher should be the highest payed and most sought after profession. They have huge impacts on kids lives (I blame my climbing *and* my profession on my HS physics teacher), yet they get paid shit. WTF is a billion-dollar CEO doing to shape individual kids lives like that?

 

Supply and demand. My mom was a teacher, and I have a tremendous amount of respect for the job that they do, and would like to see them paid more - but the fact of the matter is that there is a vast supply of people out there who are both in posession of the necessary skill set and willing to work for the pay that the districts are offering, the result being that wages remain relatively low.

 

One thing that I've never understood about teacher's pay scales is that there is no difference between what a Physics teacher makes and what a Home-Ec teacher makes. Virtually anyone can teach kids how to bake brownies and balance a checkbook, while it takes a considerable amount of dedication and sacrifice to complete a degree on physics, chemistry, or the other hard sciences. Yet there is no difference in their pay. That, plus the fact that graduates in physics and chemistry have significantly more, and higher paying career options available to them equals a permanent shortage scarcity of qualified instructors in the field. Yet I'd be willing to bet quite a bit of money that were a district to pay science teachers more than other teachers with comparable levels of experience the Union would go ballistic...

[EWolfe]

Wouln't it be funny if Marysville flooded and after all this time, school was cancelled?

[allthumbs]

MisterE said:

Wouln't it be funny if Marysville flooded and after all this time, school was cancelled?

[marylou]

I'm coming into this a little late, but the talk of the evil corrupt unions makes me want to hurl.

 

Why? Because I was a union leader for years. Alongside my work in tech theatre, I volunteered for years, and occasionally got paid, to do things like put together a very modest 401(k) plan, do countless contract negotiations, and sit on the Local's executive board, trying to steer a bunch of people who really wanted to run off in different directions. At the end of all of this, I was, you guessed it: a union business rep. It was hard, hard work. The building where my office was, was filled with other reps for other labor unions working their asses off. Nights, weekends, days, phone calls at all hours at home from members who had some problem or another, you name it. One day when the other rep, my boss at the time, came over to my house to hand off the pager, he said, "Oh, by the way, XXX XXXXX shot himself." Suicide attempt. I had members threaten to destroy me, and employers scream at me through the phone. I was being paid, three years ago, 20 dollars an hour to administer 10 million dollars per year of labor contracts. This is all pretty par for the course for a rep in a small union like mine. No one ever stole anything, hell, we barely had enough money to keep our office running.

 

I still work in the rank-and-file job I had from before, but I had to escape from union leadership. It was gruelling and thankless.

 

So before you start in about how rotten and corrupt union leaders are, you might want to learn a little bit, because trust me, you have no idea what you are talking about.

[j_b]

JayB said:

Supply and demand. My mom was a teacher, and I have a tremendous amount of respect for the job that they do, and would like to see them paid more - but the fact of the matter is that there is a vast supply of people out there who are both in posession of the necessary skill set and willing to work for the pay that the districts are offering, the result being that wages remain relatively low.

 

 

and this would explain why, say, tv people are paid the way they are relative to teachers?

 

education has nothing to do with free market economics. if conservatives ever figure out that education and similar fields should not be held accountable for not generating direct profits, the school system may have a chance.

[chucK]

Muffy_The_Wanker_Sprayer said:

what makes me sad is that we pay more and more into the system and get less and less out of it

 

Do you have any basis for this statement?

[Dan_Harris]

I guess it's time for me to jump in. I am a high school teacher. Most of the posts have some validity, some more than others. I took a big cut in pay to teach. Do I wish I made more? Sure, but it did allow me more time with my family. I do not care for the union, but I guessed I whimmped out and joined to keep them off my back at first. I wouldn't get the dues money anyway. It now lets me annoy them and be a pain in the ass to them and slowly affect some change. Not as much as I'd like. There are good teachers and bad ones. I see teachers racing kids out of the parking lot and others who spend untold amounts of time to help kids. I have seen this as a colleague and as a parent. In the private sector I saw the same thing in the work force.

 

Parental involvement is a big determinant in the success of students. I teach an advanced freshman science class and on back to school night the room is full of these the parents for these classes. For my low level classes there were 4 parents. Kids in both classes come from all socio-economic levels. We teach what is to be valued by our kids not only by what we say but also by what we do. Enough for now.

[JayB]

j_b said:

JayB said:

Supply and demand. My mom was a teacher, and I have a tremendous amount of respect for the job that they do, and would like to see them paid more - but the fact of the matter is that there is a vast supply of people out there who are both in posession of the necessary skill set and willing to work for the pay that the districts are offering, the result being that wages remain relatively low.

 

 

and this would explain why, say, tv people are paid the way they are relative to teachers?

 

education has nothing to do with free market economics. if conservatives ever figure out that education and similar fields should not be held accountable for not generating direct profits, the school system may have a chance.

 

Who is talking about profits?

 

Market forces play a much more limited role in public sector performance than private enterprises, but public enterprises are not completely insulated from them either. Take a look at tertiary education, in which institutions have to compete for students who have a choice as to which institution they attend - envy of the world. Compare that to the remainder of our education system. And market forces have nothing to do with the shortage of qualified teachers in the sciences?

 

The bottom line is that if there is a prolonged shortage of workers in a given field, employers offer higher pay to attract more applicants. Incentives do influence behavior.

[j_b]

JayB said:

j_b said:

JayB said:

Supply and demand. My mom was a teacher, and I have a tremendous amount of respect for the job that they do, and would like to see them paid more - but the fact of the matter is that there is a vast supply of people out there who are both in posession of the necessary skill set and willing to work for the pay that the districts are offering, the result being that wages remain relatively low.

 

 

and this would explain why, say, tv people are paid the way they are relative to teachers?

 

education has nothing to do with free market economics. if conservatives ever figure out that education and similar fields should not be held accountable for not generating direct profits, the school system may have a chance.

 

Who is talking about profits?

 

Market forces play a much more limited role in public sector performance than private enterprises, but public enterprises are not completely insulated from them either.

Take a look at tertiary education, in which institutions have to compete for students who have a choice as to which institution they attend - envy of the world. Compare that to the remainder of our education system. And market forces have nothing to do with the shortage of qualified teachers in the sciences?

 

no they don't. artificially low teacher wages due to lack of funding is responsible for the flight of scientists to the industry. many scientists would rather teach than work in the industry if wages were reasonable enough.

 

The bottom line is that if there is a prolonged shortage of workers in a given field, employers offer higher pay to attract more applicants. Incentives do influence behavior.

 

who said there was a shortage of labor? check out the number of science graduates (for example physics phd's) who work in some other field. moreover wages in the scientific private sector are not above that of other fields for equivalent level of education. it is just that wages pretty much throughout academia are low especially when the length of the work day is taken into account. so the incentive for going to the private sector is not that of higher wages in response to shortage of labor but truly that of escaping pittance wages for hard earned qualifications or simply lack of jobs (especially in tertiary education).

[scott_harpell]

for equivalent level of education.

 

that's what he was saying. they have more education than the average teacher.

[EWolfe]

j_b said:

JayB said:

j_b said:

JayB said:

 

Here we go again

 

I always get confused when these two start going on.

[Scott_J]

The Marysville situation was and is going to be a terrible thing for the community to deal with. No matter how it comes out there are going to be bitter feeling for years. I worked for Marysville in 1999-2000 school year. I had retired from the Alaska system and got a job here. They needed math instructors...so we needed money and I took the job.

Pay was fantastic, but I found out why. School size and class load was the some as where I taught in Alaska, but that is where it ended. My Alaskan job had high end blue collar workers and white collar workers in our school. Marysville was very low end with little or no interest in helping their children. I am used to parents that work with the teacher and student. Not so in Marysville. Example: OPEN HOUSE..I had a 17% turn out to visit with the teacher of your child. Parent Teacher conference time: 7% turn out. Needless to say the year I spent in Marysville was the worst experience in 25 years of education.

I have a ton of accolades from students, parents and colleagues. I was one of those people that worked a ton of hours at schol and home to help students. I have students visiting me in the Lower 48 and writing to me to tell me where they are headed with their lives. I really loved teaching, but I did not like Marysville. To get a student thru the year takes a pound of flesh in that school district. Sure they are paid well but they earn it

By the way if the district get what they want I would be looking at an 8,000 dollar cut in pay, middle of the road teachers will get about 5,000 dollar cut. How many of you sanctimonious scoundrels can take a pay cut like that. If you can maybe you should hire out to the Marysville School District to help.

[rbw1966]

Well put sisu.