Lame...Cave is now down and out...forever

[RuMR]

For more information, PRESS

[slothrop]

Huh? Your link's broken, RuMR.

[allthumbs]

[RuMR]

Ahhh...the forest service pulled over 400 bolts from cave and permanently shut it to climbing...i think you probably can't even walk up there now???

 

'twas a great climbing area...oh well...

[gapertimmy]

bunglehead and i went to some of the tubes down here to do some extremo rappin, we get there and bat gates had been installed: basically a big metal cage so bats can go in and out, but wankers can't

 

ironic how they did this to prevent humans from adding permanent fixtures like bolts, alas they have installed an eyesore, and have taken away the recreation opportunity for folks who would use adn not abuse. gay.

[bunglehead]

Agreed

 

FUCK THE FOREST SERVICE.

[RuMR]

Yeah...those tubes were soooo much nicer before climbers got there...

 

Just loved the redneck decorating touches...big bonfires, broken beer bottles and tagging...so much better than that mess climbers left (dripping sarcasm)

[Jim]

gapertimmy said:

bunglehead and i went to some of the tubes down here to do some extremo rappin, we get there and bat gates had been installed: basically a big metal cage so bats can go in and out, but wankers can't

 

ironic how they did this to prevent humans from adding permanent fixtures like bolts, alas they have installed an eyesore, and have taken away the recreation opportunity for folks who would use adn not abuse.

gay.

 

From my experience with this I would have to disagree. Even the most careful cavers can disturb bat breeding or hibernating colonies. They have a very narrow range of tolerance of temperature and humidity, and an extremely high metabolic rate. Disturbing them out of a rest state, even if they don't fly, causes them to lose use precious energy. There's some good papers out there on the energy dynamics regarding recreation disturbance to bats and the consequences, to bats not people.

 

So while the USFS should be ripped for many of their environmental policies they did the right thing here.

Goes with climbing too, not every place has to be open as an outdoor gym.

[pope]

Boooo hoooo. This is terrible news. I just feel sick!

[Figger_Eight]

Goes with climbing too, not every place has to be open as an outdoor gym

 

No kidding.

[pope]

Jim said:

gapertimmy said:

bunglehead and i went to some of the tubes down here to do some extremo rappin, we get there and bat gates had been installed: basically a big metal cage so bats can go in and out, but wankers can't

 

ironic how they did this to prevent humans from adding permanent fixtures like bolts, alas they have installed an eyesore, and have taken away the recreation opportunity for folks who would use adn not abuse.

gay.

 

From my experience with this I would have to disagree. Even the most careful cavers can disturb bat breeding or hibernating colonies. They have a very narrow range of tolerance of temperature and humidity, and an extremely high metabolic rate. Disturbing them out of a rest state, even if they don't fly, causes them to lose use precious energy. There's some good papers out there on the energy dynamics regarding recreation disturbance to bats and the consequences, to bats not people.

 

So while the USFS should be ripped for many of their environmental policies they did the right thing here.

Goes with climbing too, not every place has to be open as an outdoor gym.

 

Dude, your paragraph has too many polysyllabic words for your average sport climber to process. You should try something like, "Bats are good."

[gapertimmy]

dudes, watchdog in particular.... said tube we were going to was not one of the bouldering tubes, rather it was an obscure tube that one has to rap down into.

 

all i'm saying is that its too bad that the actions of some (whether they are grid bolters, boulderers, or white trash partiers) that didn't obey the seasonal closures has resulted in the closure of the resource to us all.... AND its effin ironic that they installed a VERY permanent structure to make it happen (read: drilling into the rock, shit loads of metal).

 

i can't stand you jack arses that attempt to turn every thread into a bolting debate, EAD!

[Mer]

Just loved the redneck decorating touches...big bonfires, broken beer bottles and tagging...so much better than that mess climbers left (dripping sarcasm)

 

Eww, I hate it when I encounter piles of dripping sarcasm. That stuff is so hard to clean off your shoes.

[babnik]

i agree that this is an extremely sensitive habitat. saying that 'our mess' is cleaner that 'their mess' is just bull. no-one should be in there disturbing the habitat. we cannot recreate everywhere. no matter how much you can get for guano.

[glassgowkiss]

and this was after FS agreed to keep the place as status quo, ie. no more bolting and no pulling bolts out. this is how much we can trust these fuckers. FYI i was personally present at all public meetings in 94 and 95.

these caves- 3 of them- were not really caves, but big overhangs. Hidden forest in particular. it sets a dangerous presedent every overhanging feature can get cassified as a cave= zero climbing.

i am sure there were issues. the biggest issue was Larry King ( a guy from Portland, not a TV host) and his personal vendetta on climbers and any other users of the area. he wanted his own personal pissing territory. he lobbied hard for about 2 years to achive his goal. he was the one, who pulled the bolts out of the caves, after using Portland Rock Gym as a training ground.

The routes in hidden forest cave were rather on the hard end of spectrum, hence there was only a small group of climbers= no problem with overcrowding. it sported some of the hardest routes in the country, most likely first 8c (14b).

Access Fund was involved. I think their tactics don't work, I am stoping to support these guys. There must be a major change in the strategy or we'll find ourselves without places to climb in the US. Every major battle on access issue was lost by access fund. I think the tragedy is that they go to negotiations trying to be resonable, while the land managers have thier minds made up. The strategy should be to fight as hard as junkyard dog and in case of any closure to sue the fuck out of any land manager establishing climbing as part of regular recreational activity.

Yet another point- most of the enviromental organizations are in a sense anti- climbing. climbers rather should seek support of groups like snowmobilers, hunters and such.

[Figger_Eight]

i can't stand you jack arses that attempt to turn every thread into a bolting debate, EAD!

 

It's more about environmental impact than anything. It ain't a bolting debate.

[babnik]

i still think it is bull shit that they put fucking iron bars on the cave. hello!?! is it really about impact? i am sure that the drilling and shit was great for the habitat!

[glassgowkiss]

babnik said:

i agree that this is an extremely sensitive habitat. saying that 'our mess' is cleaner that 'their mess' is just bull. no-one should be in there disturbing the habitat. we cannot recreate everywhere. no matter how much you can get for guano.

babnik- have you ever visited these caves, do you even know where they are? you are taking pure shit buddy. if these areas were so sensitive, I am sure everything what was sensitive died years ago with a smoke from tire fires and in a barrage of gun fire from drunk rednecks unloading boxes of ammo there. actually climbers were the one protecting these areas, cleaning fire pits, not allowing target practice. Maybe you should educate yourself first before blabing estabished slogans.

[gapertimmy]

word glassgow!

 

lets face it, one of these tubes was used by the gov't as a test site, they lit a bunch of railroad ties on fire inside to see if they could sense the thermal heat from space.

[Figger_Eight]

climbers rather should seek support of groups like snowmobilers

 

I think that's the last user group I would want to be affiliated with as a climber.

 

An steel gate barring access to the cave would be the same as the Muir toilet. If a small fixture is what it takes to prevent widespread impact, then so be it. I was mostly talking about the bat populations anyway. They can still fly in and out.

[Dru]

bats are cool but so was beer caving

[glassgowkiss]

gapertimmy said:

word glassgow!

 

lets face it, one of these tubes was used by the gov't as a test site, they lit a bunch of railroad ties on fire inside to see if they could sense the thermal heat from space.

you are correct, i think in the mid 70's. we did not climb in that one (i think it was skylight cave?), but i remember walking through there in ankle deep ash.

[babnik]

glassgowkiss said:

babnik said:

i agree that this is an extremely sensitive habitat. saying that 'our mess' is cleaner that 'their mess' is just bull. no-one should be in there disturbing the habitat. we cannot recreate everywhere. no matter how much you can get for guano.

babnik- have you ever visited these caves, do you even know where they are? you are taking pure shit buddy. if these areas were so sensitive, I am sure everything what was sensitive died years ago with a smoke from tire fires and in a barrage of gun fire from drunk rednecks unloading boxes of ammo there. actually climbers were the one protecting these areas, cleaning fire pits, not allowing target practice. Maybe you should educate yourself first before blabing estabished slogans.

 

are there bats there? yes. is your presence detrimental? yes. again. the "their impact is greater than our impacts" thing is bull shit.

[gapertimmy]

YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR ELEMENT BABNIK STFU!

[babnik]

gapertimmy said:

YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR ELEMENT BABNIK STFU!

 

lemme guess "1000's of your buddies died face down in the guano for climber's rights in that area, taking shrapnel from rednecks and NPS rangers while being lambasted on the home front." ???