Thoughts on the "Fast and Light" ethic from rc.com

[Sphinx]

[texplorer]

Many great points here.

 

I agree with TG about the exponential increase in speed with drop in weight. It is really pretty unbelievable what you can do. And . .yes to go fast you have to be solid enough to solo sections of easier terrain. I don't know who the original post was mocking but you must know when you go fast you are taking a higher risk usually in order to do a climb in a certain style. Sometimes that makes the climb easier and sometimes its just a one day sufferfest instead of a 3-4 day one.

[Bug]

cracked said:

I agree that just spending time in the mountains can be more rewarding than doing everything as fast as possible. But only occasionally. Coming back to the first point, though; you can go light and slow. Look at the ultralight backpackers. Light means faster for the same amount of effort, it doesn't mean you can't go out and spend an extra night out even though it's not absolutely necessary. I just like having a light pack. No matter what I'm doing.

I am able to cover more ground over a weekend or cover a little bit of ground after a nice nap in an alpine meadow. It depends on my mood.

[catbirdseat]

What ken4ord said. Well articulated.

[ken4ord]

cracked said:

I agree that just spending time in the mountains can be more rewarding than doing everything as fast as possible. But only occasionally. Coming back to the first point, though; you can go light and slow. Look at the ultralight backpackers. Light means faster for the same amount of effort, it doesn't mean you can't go out and spend an extra night out even though it's not absolutely necessary. I just like having a light pack. No matter what I'm doing.

 

I agree I like having a light pack it is freeing experience even when you are taking your time, you still move faster. Sometimes it nice to pack that extra treat, the rasta bivy kit, bottle of wine or beer, or some real food, though. How you travel depends what your gaols are. I myself prefer sleeping in a bed. If I can do things in a day that is my first choice.

[mattp]

As much as anything else "fast and light" is an advertising campaign designed to attract sponsorship and sell books, magazines and gear. Yes, there have been some amazing accomplishments in recent years as the "new style" has taken hold, but it is really not new. Gu is new and of course nobody ever climbed THOSE particular routes in a "single push" before, but for as long as I can remember there has been a pretty steady progress toward faster ascents and lighter gear, with some climbers taking great pride in climbing such-and-such a route with just a day pack and a great deal of praise being lavished on those who are able to run up something that previously was done only with siege tactics.

 

Lots of good points have been made here, but the bottom line remains: know your limits and think about what you are doing. A faster ascent and descent may minimize your exposure to certain environmental hazards, it may be fun, or you may enjoy the challenge of it - and it may gain you some respect or admiration. However, if you start leaving important gear behind (not the totally unnecessary items like all that extra camping equipment and "toys" like your camera or whatever) you will almost certainly be compromising comfort and you will probably be compromising safety should your plan not quite work out. And when, in the name of speed, you start soloing or simul-climbing things that you would otherwise belay, or when you decide to run it out across avalanche slopes in the middle of the sun rather than wait for a safer time of day, you know you are gambling.

 

Fast and light is fine, but don't be fooled by marketing and don't let folks tell you that the approach that you wish to take is more or less valid than somebody else's. To each their own, but, in my view, the current fixation on "time, car-to-car" is a little misguided.

[wscottf]

Sphinx said:

You stop sweating when humidity next to skin reaches 100%, according to Twight.

 

I don't believe that one bit. As a swimmer, I sweat underwater.

[rbw1966]

How can you tell?

[ken4ord]

rbw1966 said:

How can you tell?

 

I was doing pool workout this last winter and you can tell. Your body temp is up just like on land. I never thought I would sweat in water, it was a weird feeling.

[Sphinx]

rbw1966 said:

How can you tell?

No, studies have been done that prove this. That said, VBLs don't work for eveyone.

[MysticNacho]

I think everyone focuses on the "light" instead of the "fast." Every reasonable person knows what their limits are. The way I see it is the faster you are- the lighter you can go. If you are slow person, than perhaps going light means taking the lightest tent. If your fast- perhaps its means taking no tent at all. But if your as slow as hell don't think that not taking bivy gear will make you move ten times faster.

 

Also, the "speed is safety" mantrum, in my opinion, is great for routes with high objective danger. But for the routes that most everybody does around here, going superfast (i.e. simul-climbing, soloing, or going without bivy gear) is most likely slightly more dangerous than taking a regular approach to it. Part of "Light and Fast" tactics is an obvious increase in the risk level.

 

 

[Beck]

mattp said it well.

 

do not forget to be prepared to endure a suffer fest at whatever level of "fast and light" you are going it at.

A $20 emergency bivy from adventure medical kits that weighs 8 oz, it is a good "always take" insurance blanket (literally) i cannot rcommend highly enough.

 

a good system for when the shiddzle hitsa the fandizzle is a must take in my opinion.

do not forget what you need to survive!

 

and i already mentioned conditioning as a necessary part of the equasion, you should still be able to run with a thirty pound pack, you can do it longer if its a twelve pound pack and gear.

 

so, not necessarily the faster you can go the lighter you will be, but the other way around. lighter= further.

further predicates the light, unless you are a grunt.

 

but, having endured sufferfests for over two decades (first time I got lost in the woods in a rainstorm, walking in a circle, I was 11. (fuck, the first three years i went winter camping we didn't even bring tents! we couldn't afford them or something?)

- i do need to chime in with,

its amazing what you can withstand as a human and not die. although, i caution, like everyone else has said in here, you need to LEARN YOUR OWN LIMITS and not what you read in a book or on a website about "hey, i shaved 20 pounds out of my pack and never carry a bivy system anymore" or whatever. BE PREPARED. however, if you need to sleep in a snowbank by just diving in the damn thing, chances are, you'd make it through the night, if you had the right soft shells on!

but, having done plenty of stupid bungle sufferfests out there, i have learned what i can endure. and it's lots. I was always going hypothermic as a youth, easily a dozen times, falling thru ice, getting lost, etc.

 

What's an old yooper trick for getting back home from the bar in a 20 below canadian clipper, a real blizzard?

 

you don't. you go to sleep in the nearest snowbank.

 

 

part of my cultural heritage, seriously.

 

and having done this on innumerable occasions, i say, give some lighter options a try. but learn for yourself what they can do for you, and never let the gear be in charge of killing you because you left it in the car. like the no gauze option, IMO it's a bad idea. duct tape a couple of maxi pads inside your helmet for the big gusher. You don't want to use your puffy as a band aid if it's 15 below. Always be prepared to staunch massive blood loss.

 

my 2 cents. I don't like seeing people die because they weren't prepared.

[cracked]

I like the gauze in the helmet idea. I think I'll do that.

[MysticNacho]

Wow Beck, you're hardcore!

[AlpineK]

MysticNacho said:

Wow Beck, you're hardcore!

 

I've heard some funny stories about an epic Beck had on the Marmot Mountain practice boulder.

[Bill_Simpkins]

Going light doesn't prevent anyone from doing anything, or compromise their safety, we just learn how to do more, with less. But if it takes a 100 pound pack to get the job done, then buck it up.

 

I have a climbing partner that is 65 years old. On every climb we've done, he wears an old pair of leather hiking boots, uses a small Jansport book bag, wraps his crampons in an old vest starpped to the top, carries his home-made ice axe in his hand, brings nylon wind/rain wear, and carries two small water bottles that he fills up in creeks and with snow. He usually eats raisins and apples. He's bagged countless cool peaks and doesn't talk about it unless you bring it up. He moves like the wind across the sketchiest terrain. He has a really good sense of what he is comfortable with and what he can do.

 

I've picked some things up from him, but the most important things I've learned is that you can handle a little more than you think you can, and to turn around when you don't feel good.

 

Some other things I picked up:

You can travel through thick brush quickly without beating yourself up. You can go through scree without getting rocks in your shoes. You can traverse wet heather fast without slipping. I never purify my water anymore, and I have never gotten sick. I threw half the crap out of my pack. Walking fast is less suffering than walking slow. Plus much more.

 

He even learned one or two tricks from a young buck like me!

 

These arn't things that are taught in books, nor could I explain them to anyone. It's called.........get this people............experience.

 

I can't wait to get old!

 

 

--addition: I think too many people these days are getting wrapped up in gear before they ever get out there and be human and use the tools that took millions of years of research and development. You arms, your legs, your heart, your brain, and your instinct. I think people should learn to use those first before they go out and buy any gear.

Edited September 12, 2003 by Bill_Simpkins

[iain]

screw you guys, I still have a big 'ol goretex armor jacket/bibs and have been glad I had it at times, particularly those times where your headlamp is rimed in the "on" position and you can't take off your hood because it's frozen to your head.

 

funny how many posts here say "so-and-so said it best", followed by a 5 paragraph pontification

[cj001f]

iain said:

screw you guys, I still have a big 'ol goretex armor jacket/bibs and have been glad I had it at times, particularly those times where your headlamp is rimed in the "on" position and you can't take off your hood because it's frozen to your head.

Yes. But many of those times you have other reasons to be there than just messing around!

 

The most important thing to bring if your trying something F & L is a willingness to turn around if something goes wrong (if'n it's possible)

[Bill_Simpkins]

iain said:

screw you guys, I still have a big 'ol goretex armor jacket/bibs and have been glad I had it at times, particularly those times where your headlamp is rimed in the "on" position and you can't take off your hood because it's frozen to your head.

 

funny how many posts here say "so-and-so said it best", followed by a 5 paragraph pontification

 

That would be a good time to have that stuff! Experience tells you when you need it.

I agree, some people don't go prepared enough.

[Bug]

iain said:

funny how many posts here say "so-and-so said it best", followed by a 5 paragraph pontification

Yeah its like people think someone is reading this board for some reason. We all know we're a bunch of posers with pocket protectors and taped glasses. "Go fast and light" really means "palm pilot".

Good thread. Here come my five paragraphs.

The best fast and light trip I ever took was in the fall of 1976 on Commo peak in the Bitterroots. Four of us set out from the car and made it up the trail and to the top of the ridge in about 2 hours. We had day packs and one stove and some . Two guys stayed in a cave with a fire going and made soup while Greg and I free soloed the summit crag which was about 1000' of vertical. When we came to a wall that dissappeared into the fog, Greg went left up a gully. I remembered the face from a previous recon and counted on ledges and chimneys. I climbed for about 40 minutes not being able to see more than fifty feet above or below. When I topped out, Greg was just coming around the corner of the gully about 100' away and we were ina clear pocket on the summit. There is a west facing wall that dropps off a long ways and we could see the fog rushing vertically past us. I stuck my hand out and played with the fog for awhile making it shoot into our pocket and over at Greg. Suddenly, the fog blew by us and I was hanging out over about 1000 feet of vertical like it was nothing. We laughed and sent up a cloud. Then we descended to our friends and jumped down the mountain in scree and snow. So in the absence of good equipment, take lots of . That way you'll stay loose and boogie.

Sometimes I miss the carefree days of highschool. Other days, I wonder how I managed to survive.

[Thinker]

Beck said:

like the no gauze option, IMO it's a bad idea. duct tape a couple of maxi pads inside your helmet for the big gusher. You don't want to use your puffy as a band aid if it's 15 below. Always be prepared to staunch massive blood loss.

 

Take the gauze, but find a different place for it. The 'empty' space in a helmet is critical for it to operate as designed when loaded from the top, i.e. rockfall. In other words, the helmet's suspension system needs room to work and the maxipad could transmit the force of a falling rock more directly to the top of your skull, resulting in a more severe injury. Even when compressed, a pad has a certain thickness that could impair the helmet's function.

[Dru]

It's funny this thread started as a crosspost from rockclimbing.com, the forum where most posters cannot even spell their own name.

[iammo]

A friend of mine took a bad leader fall and hit his head. The helmet compressed and a headlamp clip hit his scalp and toar it wide open. Massive bleeding ensued but he really only had a superficial injury. A nice gauze pad would have been a good cushion for that, but you do have a good point for not putting anything up there.

[Pencil_Pusher]

The helmet's "suspension system"??? Is that the same as a box of grid squares?

For going light, what everyone said about losing that flab on your body as being the easiest way to go light. Take a crap before you hit the trail too. Of fast, how do we know what 'fast' is without a reference (time)?

[texplorer]

MattP,

I respectfully disagree about the advertising thing. I think that what has happened in climbing is that all or most of the moderately accessible great climbs have been plucked by the likes of Beckey and others. Yes I know that there are probably great climbs way off in the middle of nowhere but that is not the point. The common public will never know or care if you find a perfect handcrack 20 miles off the main road in a tangle of devils' club. The 80's brought sport climbing and bolts but most of those "good" lines have been plucked as well.

 

Today's generation of climber's has little left as far as first ascents. I haven't heard of any new snow creek walls or godzilla's poping up recently. The fact is that this generation has discovered that "speed" climbing routes in amazingly fast times is their small claim to fame. The true old skoolers probably thought the that the whole sport craze was just a marketing craze to get women and yellow climbers to buy mags, gear, and prana clothing.

 

Climbing fast and light is more dangerous and riskier but then again why even climb if you want safety and comfort. I think about the pioneers of climbing in yosemite and other places. They knew what they were doing was dangerous and that they were pushing the limits. The limits have changed today with modern gear and knowledge but, in my mind, the true climber still seeks that adventure that the early hardmen sought. It is not so much as reaching the top, or climbing a harder grade as it is an adventure. Today the way we seek adventures noone else has experienced is to do the same routes taking only the barest of necessities.

 

I personally take no first aid gear and do not own a tent. You may call me foolhardy and I may be but that is adventure to me where the stakes are real but the payoff is large. Oh, and I don't wear a helmet unless there are other dumbasses above me that are taking days to do the climb and can drop crap on me.