Cattle Grazing

[Dan_Harris]

I know that there is mining and timber cutting on public lands in the PNW. These are bad enough (clear cuts and strip mining), but is there cattle grazing? I am getting tired of heading up to the hills here in CA and finding cows grazing and trampling the meadows on National Forest Land. But the cow shit all over the place is even more annoying. I've seen cow pies at over 10,000 ft. I haven't found any yet in areas that have fee demo, but I wouldn't be surprised. At State Parks in the east bay area I have been told that the grazing helps keep the grasses low thus reducing fire hazard. Pay entrance fees to hike around cows and their crap. They are now getting into the mop up stage of over 30,000 acres of lightening fires in the east bay hills. Did the grazing help reduce the hazard? Would these have been worse Any thoughts?

[Alex]

no, they dont graze cattle or sheep in the PNW, only in Colorado and Wyoming that I've seen.

[lummox]

Dan_Harris said:

I am getting tired of heading up to the hills here in CA and finding cows grazing and trampling the meadows on National Forest Land. But the cow shit all over the place is even more annoying. I've seen cow pies at over 10,000 ft.

guess you dont know much about california history. that place been a cow growing megaranch since before it was part of the us. well suited for it too what with the winter grass crop (one of the few areas in the world that has that). personally i think the cows are okay. without em thered be a lot more brush to wade through in the foothills. cow shit is no big deal.

[RobBob]

I'll know that pussies have completely taken over when we close the West to cattle.

[philfort]

Alex said:

no, they dont graze cattle or sheep in the PNW, only in Colorado and Wyoming that I've seen.

 

I've seen cows wandering around in the woods on the S side of Mt Adams. May have been in the indian reservation though...

[bunglehead]

Actually, there used to be a buttload of sheep grazing in eastern Oregon an western Idaho, mostly by Basques that had come over here after reading advertisements of how green and beautiful it was. There's a Basque Cultural Center in Boise, and they even have a bar called Guernica. I digress. The grazing issue is complex. For example, in Hell's canyon there used to be sheep grazing allowed. What started happening though, was the sheep were getting this virus and spreading to wild bighorns. So the Forest Service discontinued grazing permits (I think in 96) and now large swaths of the canyon are being overrun by invasive weeds due to no more grazers eating the grass and keeping everything nice and trimmed. Rangers are terrrified of what will happen if a fire gets going in those area. Crazy. Seems to me like the best solution to issues as huge and complex and emotionally charged as this one is that all interested parties have an equal voice. Like the Steens Alvord Coalition, which consists of ranchers, environmentalists, hunters, couple of recreational groups, and at least one Indian Tribe.

 

[Jim]

Alex said:

no, they dont graze cattle or sheep in the PNW, only in Colorado and Wyoming that I've seen.

 

Way wrong on that one dude. While it's not prevelant on the west side, mostly because there isn't a large grazing industry on the west side, land values, and different forage availability; it is very prevelant on the east side of the Cascades in Washington, Oregon, and Idaho.

 

I've worked on a number of projects dealing with the management of allotments on Forest Circus and Bureau of Land Mis-Management property. Bureau of Reclamation is better as they have a wider discretion about land management and no grazing history like the other agecies. Christ, there's even grazing on US Fish and Wildlife Service Refuge.

 

While grazing can be done on public lands with minimal damage with intensive management - that's not how it's done on public land. And there is no scientific evidence to show grazing has any beneficial contribution, and there are piles of scientific papers to show that it is detrimental.

 

If you hear the argument that grazing is good for the land, for weed control for instance, they're blowing smoke. There is no data for such claims. Under very controlled conditions some livestock, particularly goats, have proven useful to reduce weeds. But open range grazing, which is what happens on public land, is nothing good for the habitat.

 

I've seen lots of grazing on the Wenatchee, Deschutes, Mt. Hood National Forests, in Hell's Canyon, and BLM land in OR, WA, and Idaho.

[Jim]

bunglehead said:

Actually, there used to be a buttload of sheep grazing in eastern Oregon an western Idaho, mostly by Basques that had come over here after reading advertisements of how green and beautiful it was. There's a Basque Cultural Center in Boise, and they even have a bar called Guernica. I digress. The grazing issue is complex. For example, in Hell's canyon there used to be sheep grazing allowed. What started happening though, was the sheep were getting this virus and spreading to wild bighorns. So the Forest Service discontinued grazing permits (I think in 96) and now large swaths of the canyon are being overrun by invasive weeds due to no more grazers eating the grass and keeping everything nice and trimmed. Rangers are terrrified of what will happen if a fire gets going in those area. Crazy. Seems to me like the best solution to issues as huge and complex and emotionally charged as this one is that all interested parties have an equal voice. Like the Steens Alvord Coalition, which consists of ranchers, environmentalists, hunters, couple of recreational groups, and at least one Indian Tribe.

 

 

Sorry, but wrong again. Hell's canyon is still grazed by livestock, mostly cattle. Even though there is a threat from the virus transfer from sheep to bighorns, sheep are still grazed in Hell's Canyon National Recreation Area. The agencies are working hard to get one particular sheep allotment changed to cattle because it is close to a bighorn population. But BLM/USFW rules about changing allotments are Byzantine. And there is political pressure not to do so from inside and outside these agencies. I worked on a work group of federal and state agencies, NGOs, and landowners dealing with these and other issues in Hell's Canyon for 5 years. Lots of trips to Boise and the hinterlands. The land is in bad shape because of grazing, not because grazing has been removed in some areas.

[bunglehead]

Well, Fuck! Oregon Field Guide has their shit waaay off!

[philfort]

From a Lake Chelan - Sawtooth Wilderness map I have:

 

"The Wilderness Act of 1964 let some established human uses of the land continue in Wilderness. Livestock grazing, hunting and some mining are still allowed. One band of sheep graze in a portion of the Lake Chelan-Sawtooth every odd-numbered year (Trask, take note, this year is odd-numbered), and cattle use ranges in Wolf Creek yearly."

[Cpt.Caveman]

Plenty cattle likely to graze in the Cascades at:

 

Ingalls Peak, Da Toof, Forbidden Peak

[Dru]

There's good cow pasture on the Beckey Ramps on NE Butt of Slesse.

 

If cows graze on public land does that mean the public who own the land in question can legally hunt them? "Slow elk?"

 

There's good eating on a free range cow

[catbirdseat]

Invasive weeds are by definition those that livestock will not eat or which are harmful if eaten. Since cows preferentially eat the nutritional native grasses, they allow the weeds to take their place. Furthermore, cattle spread weeds around as the seed cling to their hides. Grazing on public lands: .

[bunglehead]

Dru said:

There's good cow pasture on the Beckey Ramps on NE Butt of Slesse.

 

If cows graze on public land does that mean the public who own the land in question can legally hunt them? "Slow elk?"

 

There's good eating on a free range cow

 

Dru,

if you go hunting "slow elk" let me know. I'll help butcher it and make dinner.

[babnik]

oby the way. does anyone know what a canadian goose egg tastes like? times are tough and da birds are plentiful.

[RobBob]

no, but Canadas themselves taste good. but have ya ever plucked a goose. Jesus, it's hard work, and an endless number of feathers.

[babnik]

that is why i was talking about the eggs. they are all ovwer my campus... you can juggle them

[AlpineK]

I don't know about the eggs, but I hear the geese that hang out here taste nasty, unlike wild geese.

 

All I have to say about cattle grazing is.

 

mmmmm beef

[Dru]

bunglehead said:

Dru said:

There's good cow pasture on the Beckey Ramps on NE Butt of Slesse.

 

If cows graze on public land does that mean the public who own the land in question can legally hunt them? "Slow elk?"

 

There's good eating on a free range cow

 

Dru,

if you go hunting "slow elk" let me know. I'll help butcher it and make dinner.

 

If you have butchering skillz you are invited on the next Chilcotin trip!

[babnik]

yeah buddy i am all about snaggin me a free range cow. we just need a heli to drag its fat ass outta there, or a few peeps that wanna help me take out some pieces.

[Dru]

the traditional hunter-gatherer method of dealing with a large kill is to make camp at the kill site and live there until the entire thing has been eaten and/or smoked

 

mastodon burgers anyone?

[bunglehead]

Dru said:

[if you have butchering skillz you are invited on the next Chilcotin trip!

 

Dru, the only things I've butchered have been sides of cow, and Stairway to Heaven on my guitar.

 

[MATT_B]

Dru said:

If cows graze on public land does that mean the public who own the land in question can legally hunt them? "Slow elk?"

 

No I don't think we can hunt cows. I know of a few cougar and bears that have tryed that. They got cought and got a death centence. I think it has something to do with that endangered species act. Seeing how cows are endangered and all. The problem is with all the damn enveronmentalests trying to exterminate them cowz.

[Greg_W]

Jim said:

And there is no scientific evidence to show grazing has any beneficial contribution...

 

It's probably good for the cows, there, brainiac. Also, it allows ranchers to run larger herds than just their private holdings could handle - this allows more meat to be put to market, thus keeping the price of beef down.

[Alex]

Jim said:

Alex said:

no, they dont graze cattle or sheep in the PNW, only in Colorado and Wyoming that I've seen.

 

Way wrong on that one dude.

 

ah sorry, I guess I should have qualified that more. I was thinking solely of national forest land, and I have never seen grazing anywhere in WA state in national forests that I've visited. but I can see how the deschutes nf would have grazing, and there is doubtless some in the Wallowas etc. BLM land is another story entirely, but there isnt much land in WA or OR that climbers are interested in, besides Smith Rock - Grasslands, thats administered by the BLM. Conversely, almost whereever I went in CO and WY, they had grazing permits for sheep and cattle on nf land. I dont know much about the scene in Idaho