This is NOT another sport vs trad debate!

[skykilo]

[AlpineK]

Dwayner,

 

My remarks are based on a Pub Club conversation and endless posts by you on the board.

 

The fact is you just like to listen to yourself pontificate. I think you've spent too many years talking down to students.

 

In the real world of climbing you walk to the base of a bolted face climb and climb it or not. You may evaluate the route by these factors:

 

1. Sketch ie. bolts are really run out

 

2. AntiSketch ie. way too many bolts. climb condor butt for an example

 

3. Bolts are at natural and appropriate points in the climb

 

4. Bolts are in stupid unthought out spots

 

5. Bolts next to cracks

 

Of these examples only #2 and #4 are truely poor form by the FA party. #5 can be bad, but then again go climb a route like Gorilla My Dreams and ask yourself if you would be willing to fork out the dough for 7 #5 camalots in order to climb it in pure form.

 

#1 is alright if ya got the guts and #3 is just peachy!

 

Now none of the evaluations has anything to do with whether or not the bolts were placed on lead or rap. I've climbed bottom up routes where the FA party had their heads up their ass when it came to bolt placement and I've climbed top down routes where the same could be said.

 

I'm happy to see bolts pulled like on DDD because of tradition of the crag and since the route was a squeeze job, and I would have been happy to pull bolts on the route you, pope and I looked at. However for the most part I don't have a problem with bolted face climbs.

 

Face it Dwayner if you were a politician you would be like Linden LaRouche. A voice, but one of an extreme minority.

 

On another note I think we should solicit donations for a prize package that Dwayner will win when he climbs the 5.13 sport route of his choice in the PNW

I'll gladly plunk down $100 cause Dwayner will never get it.

[Dwayner]

Mr. Jay....I tried to be nice but you're wearing on me:

 

Jay say: "Most people- including myself - couldn't climb 5.13 even if doing so was their sole object in life. If someone is climbing hard 12's when climbing is merely a past-time then perhaps their claims that they could redpoint 5.13 if only they had enough time would have some credibility. If Dwayner heads down to Smith next weekend and sends some 12's then perhaps his claims would be worth something, but in the absence of any such evidence, they deserve the ridicule that they are getting. "

 

Speak for yourself and your own perceived personal limitations, dude. As I said in my previous post (and I won't impose any limitations on your ability to read or comprehend), I'll do whatever on my own terms....not yours, or anybody elses, and I'll let you know when it happens. Until then, have some dignity, man. Just as you are confident that I am incapable, I am confident that you are more capable that you probably realize. If you've got your mind shut to the possibilities, there's a good chance you'll never achieve it.

 

- Dwayner

 

 

 

 

[JayB]

Dwayner said:

Mr. Jay....I tried to be nice but you're wearing on me:

 

Jay say: "Most people- including myself - couldn't climb 5.13 even if doing so was their sole object in life. If someone is climbing hard 12's when climbing is merely a past-time then perhaps their claims that they could redpoint 5.13 if only they had enough time would have some credibility. If Dwayner heads down to Smith next weekend and sends some 12's then perhaps his claims would be worth something, but in the absence of any such evidence, they deserve the ridicule that they are getting. "

 

Speak for yourself and your own perceived personal limitations, dude. As I said in my previous post (and I won't impose any limitations on your ability to read or comprehend), I'll do whatever on my own terms....not yours, or anybody elses, and I'll let you know when it happens. Until then, have some dignity, man. Just as you are confident that I am incapable, I am confident that you are more capable that you probably realize. If you've got your mind shut to the possibilities, there's a good chance you'll never achieve it.

 

- Dwayner

 

 

 

You're just making things harder on yourself. Just admit that you have never climbed 5.13, cannot climb 5.13, and never will climb 5.13 and this will all go away.

 

Redpointing a legitimate 5.13, like running a sub 11 second 100 Meter Dash, is a standard that very few will ever realize. Having a due appreciation for exactly how difficult climbing at such a standard is and duly acknowledging the strength and skill that doing so requires is one thing, derrogating one's own abilities is another. Me saying that I'll probably never climb hard enough to 5.13 represents a realistic assesment of the level of drive and talent that I bring to the sport - and a due apreciation of the true nature of the difficulty involved. When you claim that redpointing a 5.13 sport route represents a trivial accomplishment that you could duplicate fairly easily, you are talking shit, plain and simple. I am calling you on it. I'll send a check with your name on it for $100 to the folks that run this site, and leave it undated, for you to claim the instant that you redpoint a 5.13. If all you do in response to this wager is talk, then you've made my point more forcefully than I ever could.

 

Don't take all of this too personally. I wouldn't expect any less from you if the tables were turned and I was the one making the outrageous claims.

 

I think we are up to $400 between myself, Kurt, Slaphappy, and RuMr. That'd buy a whole lot of Mickeys, my friend.

 

 

 

 

[iain]

what is the lowest-end 5.13 out there anyway? seems to be a fair crowd on churning at Smith, for example.

[RuMR]

pope said:

AlpineK said:

 

My advice to more reasonable folks out there is to ignore both Dwayner and Pope. They are both dinosaurs and they will turn to oil soon.

 

 

I only jumped in to this rerun episode because Dwayner informed me at the bar last evening that Rumor had accused me of being logical and cordial in these discussions.

 

 

 

Ahhhh...i'm sorry i insulted you...lemme try and get it straight...you made a point ONCE that i understood...

 

I remember seein' ol' cilley clippin' away at the new and havin' a grand ol' time... does one really have to place the bolt or does enjoying them give enough of a tacit agreement to their existence?????

[RuMR]

Fence_Sitter said:

JayB said:

Fence_Sitter said:

dedicating just about all of their spare time to the sport.

 

spare time...i do believe hommes implied that they would receive ample compensation that they not need jobs and can dedicate all time to climbing... quite the difference...

 

It goes like this: Subject--->Verb----->Noun.

 

Some of us slow kids need complete sentences to understand what you are trying to say, homes.

 

wah... whatever fuck sticks always use the spelling cop-out when you get up a tree...

 

he's rippin yo' grammar, not yo' spellin'

 

and its "fuckstick" not fuck stick...sheesh

[Dru]

iain said:

what is the lowest-end 5.13 out there anyway? seems to be a fair crowd on churning at Smith, for example.

 

in general, your low end 13 is gonna be either

 

1) an endurance style thingy with no crux, like at the red river gorge where you have a 13a jug ladder with no individual move harder than mid 5.11 but it's graded for the pump;

 

2) a boulder problem one move wonder on a much easier route. the soft 13 will have the boulder prob at the start then easier climbing afterwards... like a 3 move v5 off the ground to a long 11c.

 

So what's it gonna be? power or endurance Dwayner?

 

Does it have to be a PNW 13 or can Dwayner get credit for ticking a comfortized and overgraded 13 that'd be 12b in the PNW at some silly crag like Jacks Canyon AZ?

[pope]

Dwayner's a talented guy. He is an accomplished pianist, speaks six or seven languages and has climbed 5.11 off the couch. Could he climb 5.13 givin all of the cheating that sport climbers employ? Maybe, but it's more likely that he'd never devote the time required for all of that rehearsing and clowning around on the end of a rope. HE'S GOT A LIFE!

 

I think we are up to $400 between myself, Kurt, Slaphappy, and RuMr. That'd buy a whole lot of Mickeys, my friend.

 

You've just listed three climbers who aren't doing 5.13 inspite of their whole-hearted embrace of sport climbing.

[Peter_Puget]

Pope Quote:

"Main whine/only complaint. God, this distinction is just enormous now, isn't it? But isn't that a classic PP tactic? When you're eating your liver, when your so full of your own horse manure that your eyes are turning brown, reach for anything you can, Peter! The spirit and intent of your drivel was to get your audience (Christ, look at them all) to believe that Dick doesn't object to the application of bolting as it is currently practiced at the majority of sport cliffs. My conversations with Dick left me to believe otherwise.

 

Sweet dreams.

 

Pope -

First of all, don't even think you can speak for my motivations.

 

Second, I simply relate my experience which is actually climbing sport routes at various locations with Dick. One of those locations was even your favorite place Vantage.

 

 

PP

 

 

 

 

 

[youngprofessor]

yup, yp believes ol’dwayner can do it. yes, the man petey & da’rest of ya call a dinosaur…soon to be “oil,” can surely climb da’5.phirteen.

 

herr doctor professor dwayner is da’man who was wearing out eb’s well before most of ya were outa diapers and learning yer alphabet. onsighting routes with runouts that would make some of ya put them diapers back on…even now.

 

my money’s on dwayner. course, he doesn’t “have to” prove nut’in to me. the fact that he’s able to duke it out with ya all here for pages and pages of posts and keep his argument on topic—and not get into “prove fest” of human feats is good nuf for me.

 

da big question seems to be…are your actions out there consistent with your philosophy, or are ya just a lump of jello…just waiting to be pushed around by a growing tide of, “if it feels good to me…it must be OK” kind of grey water.

 

+++

 

and i agree with dwayner ‘bout those CAPITAL LETTERS…irritating, and never get read…

 

[Peter_Puget]

Go to high school YP,

 

Ole Petey never once called ole dwayner a dinosaur.

 

But what is most interesting is the manner in which both you and Pope try to gain authority for your arguments by bringing in an outside unrelated fact or pseudo fact.

 

For example, look at Pope seven langauges comment and so on. Or your very own "he was wearing EBs while you were still in diapers". Both of course are non-responsive to the debate. I by the way can care less about whether dwayner can climb .13 or not because it has no bearing on my position. I do think that .13 is within many climbers ability.

 

As far as keeping on topic I would disagree completely and use it as another reason why shools aint what they use to be!

 

PP

[RuMR]

pope said:

 

You've just listed three climbers who aren't doing 5.13 inspite of their whole-hearted embrace of sport climbing.

 

Not sure if i'm in your group of three? But, i couldn't do it w/o serious work (call it training, hangdogging, dumbing-down, wussifying, wiring, etc. etc. etc.)...so none of us are what i'd call 5.13 climbers...

[youngprofessor]

p2

 

[RuMR]

Is that pitch 2?

[youngprofessor]

p SQUARED. a term of endearment, not a slam, pp.

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2003 by youngprofessor

[Stefan]

mattp said:

Stefan -

 

It costs real money to bolt "properly." Stainless steel bolts cost about $2.00 each (or more), powder coated hangers about the same, and proper chains and stuff for belay stations end up costing at least $10.00 per station. That is one of the reasons why you see some funky stuff out there.

 

As to the cost for a given 150 feet of rock, the total would depend on whether that is one pitch or two (some people are advocating 85 foot pitches these days) and how many bolts would be installed. It would cost $22.00 for a 150 foot pitch with three bolts and one belay station, whereas it would cost $120.00 for two 75 foot pitches with body-length bolt intervals and two belay stations.

 

In addition to the installed hardware, a power drill costs $500.00 and the batteries don't last forever. A $6.00 drill bit is generally shot after something in the range of a dozen holes but it can be resharpened to some degree at least.

 

Thanks!

 

Are there diamond tipped drill bits out there that people buy?

[RuMR]

Stefan said:

mattp said:

Stefan -

 

It costs real money to bolt "properly." Stainless steel bolts cost about $2.00 each (or more), powder coated hangers about the same, and proper chains and stuff for belay stations end up costing at least $10.00 per station. That is one of the reasons why you see some funky stuff out there.

 

As to the cost for a given 150 feet of rock, the total would depend on whether that is one pitch or two (some people are advocating 85 foot pitches these days) and how many bolts would be installed. It would cost $22.00 for a 150 foot pitch with three bolts and one belay station, whereas it would cost $120.00 for two 75 foot pitches with body-length bolt intervals and two belay stations.

 

In addition to the installed hardware, a power drill costs $500.00 and the batteries don't last forever. A $6.00 drill bit is generally shot after something in the range of a dozen holes but it can be resharpened to some degree at least.

 

Thanks!

 

Are there diamond tipped drill bits out there that people buy?

 

Carbide impact bits...basically masonry/concrete bits...these are not "cutting" bits...they are "chipping" bits...

[pope]

youngprofessor said:

yup, yp believes ol’dwayner can do it. yes, the man petey & da’rest of ya call a dinosaur…soon to be “oil,” can surely climb da’5.phirteen.

 

herr doctor professor dwayner is da’man who was wearing out eb’s well before most of ya were outa diapers and learning yer alphabet. onsighting routes with runouts that would make some of ya put them diapers back on…even now.

 

my money’s on dwayner. course, he doesn’t “have to” prove nut’in to me. the fact that he’s able to duke it out with ya all here for pages and pages of posts and keep his argument on topic—and not get into “prove fest” of human feats is good nuf for me.

 

da big question seems to be…are your actions out there consistent with your philosophy, or are ya just a lump of jello…just waiting to be pushed around by a growing tide of, “if it feels good to me…it must be OK” kind of grey water.

 

+++

 

and i agree with dwayner ‘bout those CAPITAL LETTERS…irritating, and never get read…

 

High five, young Prof. You've packed a lot of wisdom into your few years. And don't worry 'bout PP's juvenile insults ("go back to HS"). Remember, he's the one admonishing everybody to keep on the debate's topic.

 

[Dwayner]

Self-defeatist Jay B. requires (hopefully) one last reply.

 

Here he is! "You're just making things harder on yourself. Just admit that you have never climbed 5.13, cannot climb 5.13, and never will climb 5.13 and this will all go away."

 

Dwayner: Have I ever climbed "5.13"? no. Can I do one right now, today?.....highly unlikely, especially with my temporary injury.....might I do so if I adopted the sport-climbing tactics of unlimited rehearsal? I think so.

 

Dwayner: Question for J.B. (Doesn’t require an answer in writing as I think I’ve heard it twice already.) Did you read the last post? I gave you the benefit of the doubt last time and assumed you were probably a cool cat trying to catch a bit of the action. Now, I’m convinced you’re just another jackass who likes to listen to himself.

Let me spell it out for you.......

a) when you speak of abilities or potential, keep your own, self-limiting prognostications to yourself, sports-star.

b) if or when I waste my time hang-dogging to climb a 5.13. I’LL LET YOU KNOW.

c) I don’t require your juvenile locker-room bet. I mentioned earlier that the only way you MIGHT get some action out of me on YOUR timetable is if you compensate me for my salary and expenses for wasting my time.

 

j.B.“You're just making things harder on yourself...Admit that you have never....and it will all go away.”

 

Dwayner: Sounds like school-yard taunting...or a North Korean re-education camp!!

 

J.B.: “Red-pointing a legitimate 5.13, like running a sub 11 second 100 Meter Dash, is a standard that very few will ever realize.”

 

Very, very poor analogy with the running. Apples and oranges...5.13 is becoming more and more common all the time! Rehearse the moves over and over and over again and it should be possible for many people. I remember when they used to say the same stuff about 5.11! And wait till the shoes get even stickier.

 

JayB“Me saying that I'll probably never climb hard enough to 5.13 represents a realistic assessment of the level of drive and talent that I bring to the sport - and a due appreciation of the true nature of the difficulty involved. When you claim that red-pointing a 5.13 sport route represents a trivial accomplishment that you could duplicate fairly easily,..”

 

Dwayenr: Dude....I never said it was trivial nor that it could be done fairly easily. It could take me weeks of rehearsal or longer. I stated that I believed it could be done by lots of folks, including myself, if one is allowed unlimited rehearsal ala the sport-climbing ethos. Feel free to "realistically assess" your own personal limitations and levels of drive and talent, but imposing them on others (including those whom you do not even know), at least to me, is very sad. Jay thinks Jay can’t, so Jay probably won’t, and you won't either. If you ever have to deal with kids, I hope that you will NEVER advise them in such a way.

 

“you are talking shit, plain and simple.”

Very articulate, young man. You and your buddies can take your checks for that “big money”, use them to buy some beer and chips, and then sit around and talk about the stuff you don’t think you are capable of doing, or maybe the good old days when your high school football team had a winning streak.

 

Hey Bro. Dru! Thanks for spelling out some of the options....I prefer the short bouldering problem followed by the 5.11 stretch. Or the 25 ft. route that’s a sequence problem. I’ll let you know when it happens. See you at Jack’s Canyon!

 

Petey P. Say: “I do think that .13 is within many climbers ability.”

 

Dang! Me ‘n ole Petey actually agree on something!

 

- Dwayner

 

[JayB]

....Edited comment about physique consistent with redpointing 5.13...

[Crackbolter]

Add another $50 to the pot please.

[erik]

ill toss in $50 too and a case of mickey hand granades!

 

 

[RuMR]

shoot...can you guys pay me to go redpoint a 13????? Please?? I just got screwed on raises!!

[erik]

RuMR said:

shoot...can you guys pay me to go redpoint a 13????? Please?? I just got screwed on raises!!

 

 

RuMR

rOcKrAgE

 

 

 

Reged: 04/26/02

Posts: 1279 <---------------------

Loc: Seattle

 

who would've thought!