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carolyn

This is NOT another sport vs trad debate!

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This post and the thoughts brought into it are inspired by Muffy! grin.gif

 

I went out to a bolted area this weekend and climbed. I did my first sport lead(s).

 

I watched a woman (similar to muffy's personal experience which she posted in spray) push herself on a climb, hanging from each bolt for extended periods of time...downclimbing to her last bolt, etc.

 

I saw (for the first time) someone take not just one but two big whippers. I think it scared me more than himself. I also watched him get right back up and keep climbing.

 

I watched my partner push himself more than I have ever seen him do on trad leads.

 

Im not for or against sport climbing. However, Ive been a bit backwards in my learning (ice before rock, trad before sport), so this way of climbing was a bit foriegn to me.

 

How could someone just hang from a bolt time and time again and call that climbing?!??!

 

How can you allow yourself to let it be ok to fall?!?!??!

 

How can you take the risk to go well beyond your limits on lead?!?!?

 

Oh ya...and all the chalk used! My gwad! tongue.gif(j/k...I actually pulled out my chalk bag and used some when I remembered).

 

After thinking about it some and reading over muffy's post, I can see the benefits of clipping bolts on occassion (for me anyway).

 

I can see how it boosted my confidence a bit on lead.

 

I guess if I were to catch a fall for the first time OR fall myself for the first time, i would rather do it attached to a bolt.

 

There could be some good practice involved with downclimbing to your last bolt, giving ya more confidence if you had to do that with pro instead.

 

The point of having the opportunity to push yourself w/a tad less risk involved is golden.

 

I think I enjoy the flavor of trad climbing more. I like the puzzle of where/when/how to place pro. I look forward to the wide range of climbing opportunities trad routes have to offer.

 

However, I dont think I can knock sport climbing, yet. It seems be a good supplement and training tool for the things I want to do in the future.

 

<end of babble>

 

 

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agree with your babble 100%. for me sport climbing is the means, trad is the end. (i still suck at both though cry.gif)

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"How could someone just hang from a bolt time and time again and call that climbing?!??!"

 

Exactly! You're starting to catch on!!

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first i will say that i do agree with you mostly.

 

h/e i have recently found the use and benefit of sport climbing. having recently had shoulder surgery and hurt my foot, i've found that clipping bolts has given me the opportunity to improve my conditioning w/o resorting to the gym. and oh the horror, i've actually been having some fun.

 

i recently took a lead fall that although not serious, rattled my nerves a bit. yesterday i took the opportunity to lead a few sport routes. although it certainly isn't the same as leading on gear, it did give me a chance to be above my protection and soothe my nerves a bit.

 

it all has a place.

 

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Dwayner said:

"How could someone just hang from a bolt time and time again and call that climbing?!??!"

 

Exactly! You're starting to catch on!!

 

rolleyes.gifrolleyes.gifrolleyes.gifrolleyes.gifrolleyes.gifrolleyes.gif

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Dwayner said:

"How could someone just hang from a bolt time and time again and call that climbing?!??!"

 

Exactly! You're starting to catch on!!

 

I agree with Dwayner. I think it all comes down to motivation. Although, why someone is motivated to clip bolts I'll never understand.

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Greg_W said:

Dwayner said:

"How could someone just hang from a bolt time and time again and call that climbing?!??!"

 

Exactly! You're starting to catch on!!

 

I agree with Dwayner. I think it all comes down to motivation. Although, why someone is motivated to clip bolts I'll never understand.

 

Greg...you should come climbing w/ me sometime...you might understand then...maybe or maybe not...but you should at least give it a go...

 

I think you'd be shocked at how strong you'll get...then when you go back to pluggin' gear, it'll all be good...

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Redoubt said:

carolyn said:

This is NOT another sport vs trad debate!

 

Oh yes it is!

 

another pointless debate...

 

how bout politics or religion??? rolleyes.gif

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Greg_W said:

Dwayner said:

"How could someone just hang from a bolt time and time again and call that climbing?!??!"

 

Exactly! You're starting to catch on!!

 

I agree with Dwayner. I think it all comes down to motivation. Although, why someone is motivated to clip bolts I'll never understand.

 

I disagree with Dwayner. I think it all comes down to attitude. Although, why someone believes that what they do is the only way to do it, I'll never understand.

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RuMR said:

Greg_W said:

Dwayner said:

"How could someone just hang from a bolt time and time again and call that climbing?!??!"

 

Exactly! You're starting to catch on!!

 

I agree with Dwayner. I think it all comes down to motivation. Although, why someone is motivated to clip bolts I'll never understand.

 

Greg...you should come climbing w/ me sometime...you might understand then...maybe or maybe not...but you should at least give it a go...

 

I think you'd be shocked at how strong you'll get...then when you go back to pluggin' gear, it'll all be good...

 

I don't doubt that for a minute, RumR.

 

Slaphappy, I never said my way was the only way.

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Redoubt said:

carolyn said:

This is NOT another sport vs trad debate!

 

Oh yes it is!

 

awwwww, maybe I should rename it...sport climbing trip report.

 

Ya know, I never understood bouldering either. THought it was silly and a pointless.

 

Although its really not my cup o tea, either, I can see it being useful for (my) training purposes.

 

Heck, those of us in the 'flatlands' (as dru would be so kind to point out) have to take what we can get! grin.gif

 

I think minx summed it up nicely...."it all has its place"

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How can you allow yourself to let it be ok to fall?!?!??!

 

 

Bolts.....

 

How can you take the risk to go well beyond your limits on lead?!?!?

 

Bolts...

 

Don't like it, don't climb it..... bigdrink.gif

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I'm no rock star, but what I like about sport leading is that I actually learn the limits of the possible (and it's way above what I thought I was capable of at times). I feel like I'm about to grease off, make a desperate lunge for an improbable hold, and stick it. That is such a great feeling. Call me a headcase, but it's something I have trouble doing on trad lead. I'll back down to my last piece and cogitate. Learning just how long you actually can hang it out there makes it easier in the trad realm too (at least for me). You learn a lot when you go to total failure and your hands just open up off the hold (rather than your brain saying "no way I'm trying that")

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People grab pro on trad climbs too. It is not uncommon for people to yard from piece to piece on hard cracks. Heck how many people hang on Sentry Box? How many people grab a sling after a runout slab section?

 

PP bigdrink.gif

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Peter Peter Peter...that is different!! Sheesh...I don't know how, but it is... rolleyes.gif

 

[DRIPPING SARCASM]

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carolyn I also had a hard time coming into sport climbing as I had been climbing choss routes for years before where the climbing was easier but falling was simply out of the question. It can be hard to progress in sport mode if you don't let yourself fall often but it is part of the game.

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...or how about the "bold" 100' trad lead where the leader places 15 pieces of pro versus the "chicken bolted" 100' route with 6 or 7 bolts... rolleyes.gifrolleyes.gifrolleyes.gif

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"How could someone just hang from a bolt time and time again and call that climbing?!??!"

 

Sport-climbing is a "dumbing down" of rock-climbing. By creating routes dependent upon closely-spaced bolts, not only do you degrade the rock, you bring it down to your own level. (Consider, for example, the famous Dan's Dreadful Direct" incident of a couple of years ago...it was thought to be too dangerous for the average Joe to protect so they bolted it.). "But Dude!", you say. What about all those heinous unprotectable faces and such?" Dwayner says.....bolt them very sparingly on the lead if your conscience will allow you to morally justify it (e.g. many climbs at Peshastin) or preferably not, top-rope them, or leave them alone. (Vantage would have been a lot better off if people had kept to trad-climbing the cracks and top-roping the unprotectable faces.....today it is a tragic embarrassment.)

 

Something else: if you're falling all the time....it's probably too hard for you. Change the "rules" allowing unlimited hang-dogging and rehearsal of the moves and personal time-sacrifices and YOU TOO can be a 5.13+ climber!

 

Here's an example:

This is Richard Simmons and his grandmother:

richard.jpg

 

 

Neither know how to play the piano today.

piano-front-page.jpg

 

 

Give them enough time to rehearse and musically hang-dog, and both Richard and Granny will eventually play a Beethoven sonata.

beethoven.jpg

 

Give them enough time to rehearse and hang-dog, and both Richard and Granny will eventually have the moves wired to climb a 5.13.

 

I've met more than one individual newly introduced to climbing who after a week in the gym or Exit 38 tell me they climb 5.11. Give them a rack o'gear and point them in the direction of a Castle Rock 5.4 and they will shudder within a few feet from the ground. Who's climbing 5.11 now?

 

"But hang-dogging makes me stronger!" I'm sure it does. So go do some pull-ups or even go to one of those obnoxious indoor gyms. At least the gyms are cognizant of being artificial!

 

Do you guys leave your snacking garbage at the base of the climb when you leave for the day?

Shouldn't your climbing ethic be to leave as little trace of your passing as possible? Shouldn't that include bolts as well, i.e. if they can be avoided by top-roping or not bolting at all? Isn't that a better thing? Shouldn't you be disgusted by grid-bolted atrocities like Vantage?

 

garbage.jpg

 

 

 

"Although, why someone believes that what they do is the only way to do it, I'll never understand."

 

Dude.....we think our way is better. You may disagree. No one is stopping you. America....what a country!

torial-yak_inset.jpg

 

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Peter_Puget said:

Heck how many people hang on Sentry Box?

 

HECK, HOW MANY PEOPLE CLIMB THE SENTRY BOX?? HAVE HAD A HARD TIME FINDING THOSE ROUTES.....

 

 

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Dwayner...i seriously doubt you too could be a .13+ sportclimber...maybe or maybe not...but you will never know will you??

 

One way to go figger it out is to become, dare i say it, a pad person? That way, you won't lower yerself to clip bolts...but you can try some v10's...if you send, i'd say you're a .13+ climber...otw you're just spewing about something you may or may not be able to do, but is now undetermined...

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or you can just let people do what they like to do, let em do their own thing, and don't give a fuck if they clip bolts or pull on their pro!

 

just climb

 

yellowsleep.gif

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RUMR.....maybe I can, maybe I can't....you don't know me, and that's not the issue. I can have an opinion on the subject even if I'm confined to a wheelchair.

rolleyes.gif

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