Class 3 vs. Class 4

[matosan]

It seems like there are many interpretations of the class 3 and class 4 grades. How does everyone distinguish between these two?

[lummox]

class 4 means if you fall you gonna get majorly fucked up or dead. class 3 means if you fall you might break something.

[jordop]

The definitive guide to this problem http://bivouac.com/ExpPg.asp?ExpId=102

 

There are too may variables in this matter to complie some idea of a benchmark fourth class. Generally, fourth usually includes some fifth and is a catch-all descriptor for the portion of a climb not roped up for but still sometimes hairy.

 

Non-mountaineers will epic

 

[thelawgoddess]

jordop said:

The definitive guide to this problem http://bivouac.com/ExpPg.asp?ExpId=102

 

my search for "class" produces this:

Attempting to define "4th class". Drew Brayshaw

my attempt to access that article produces this:

You must be a paid member to view Reference Article.($20 CDN/year)"

 

thanks.

[jordop]

Haha! Yeah, that only just strated happening to hyperlinked pages on bivy.com. I think Robin Tivy insterted some new protocol for externally linked pages so that ALL pages linked are shown to require membership whereas a lot of them can be accessed for free if you first go to the site.

 

PAY UP all you dirtbags

[matosan]

i've read drew's article and the responses identify the confusion i'm curious about. it seems that some expect 3rd and 4th to be consistent, while others see it as subjective. (e.g. if i didnt use a rope it's 3rd, if i roped belay to belay with no pro it's 4th)

 

The other confusion seems to come from move difficulty vs. exposure. it seems like some people expect 3rd and 4th to relate to the technical difficulty of the climbing, while others expect it to relate to the consequences of a fall.

 

i'd like to hear what other's think 3rd and 4th class relates to.

[Attitude]

thelawgoddess said:

my search for "class" produces this:

Attempting to define "4th class". Drew Brayshaw

my attempt to access that article produces this:

You must be a paid member to view Reference Article.($20 CDN/year)"

 

thanks.

It's $20 CDN. Not like it is real money. Pay up!

[thelawgoddess]

or ... find information elsewhere:

 

An Explanation of Ratings and Grades

The Yosemite Decimal System

 

(even if i wanted to pay; i don't have $20 right now!)

[bunglehead]

Made up example: a climb called "5 Blind Mice" is graded

Grade IV 5.10 A2

Grade: how long it takes to complete.

I: short 1-? pitches. Can easily be done in a day

II: Longer >3 pitches. Usually a half day ~4 hrs

III: longer still

IV: prob'ly thoe whole dazay

V: Possible Bivi except for guys like Potter

VI: multi day to 2 weeks or so

VII: relativey newer grade applies to that whack Shit in Greenland that takes like 3 weeks. Check old issues of Climbing for articles about Mike Libecki.

Class 3: walking

Class 4: scrambling.

Class 5: Well you all know what this is.

 

My girlfriend has suggested the following: Apply the Y.D.S to hiking. 4.0 to 4.14 I like it.

"Dude, I hiked my first 4.12C yesterday."

Gives the ego a much needed boost.

 

[fern]

you guys are dorks. Matt is asking for YOUR opinions, not

redirection to other websites. Maybe you don't actually

have opinions on the matter? ... must be a first for cc.com.

... Matt is an experienced guy and guidebook

writer. Maybe if you say something useful on the topic you

can get your quotes published like Dru

 

For my view on the subject: I feel that the difference between

3rd and 4th is one of exposure and consequence, while the

difference between 4th and 5th is one of technical difficulty.

4th class can be more serious than so called easy 5th, because

it might not be so difficult that you would pull out the rope,

yet if you mess up you will be in trouble.

[gregm]

3rd class = easy scrambling

 

4th class = some dirty 5th class beckey climbed where he couldn't find any pro

[Greg_W]

Anything with Class 4 is automatically a death route.

[Distel32]

Class 3: Scrambling where your hands are only going to come into contact with rock a few times and you're never really going to need to crank more than a few moves in a row.

 

Class 4: Continuous scrambling using your hands on almost every move where roping up might be necessary but pro is not really needed. Basically you need to use your hands, but its either low angle enough or huge enough holds that it is not quite 5th class.

 

I've never heard of exposure playing into it. Just exposed 3rd or 4th, but never moving it up to 4th because it is exposed.

 

my pennies

[Attitude]

matosan said:

It seems like there are many interpretations of the class 3 and class 4 grades. How does everyone distinguish between these two?

3rd class: Using hands or thoughtful balance on rock, chance or consequence of slipping low.

 

4th class: Using hands or thoughtful balance on rock, chance or consequence of slipping moderate.

[Rodchester]

class 4 means if you fall you gonna get majorly fucked up or dead. class 3 means if you fall you might break something.

 

Lummox hit it on the head in simple terms.

 

I have heard a FEW people say that exposure goes into rating the difficulty, or should IU say the technical rating of a route. I disagree.

 

The difficulty, or the technical rating of a route, is what it is regardless of exposure, length, or gear placements. That is why you see notes in guidebooks that say things like exposed mid-fifth class moves, difficult to protect.

 

It may make it feel like a 5.8, but its not.

 

All that said, ratings, as well all know, are not a perfect science or measurement.

[Peter_Puget]

4th class also assumed the use of ropes but no protection being placed. Third class assumed no ropes at all. Thus the expression “I third-classed Butterballs” means I climbed it w/o ropes. Less common is the phrase “4th classed” but if something was runout especially at the top of a climb it is often just called 4th class.

 

PP

[matosan]

Rodchester said:

class 4 means if you fall you gonna get majorly fucked up or dead. class 3 means if you fall you might break something.

 

Lummox hit it on the head in simple terms.

 

I have heard a FEW people say that exposure goes into rating the difficulty, or should IU say the technical rating of a route. I disagree.

 

The difficulty, or the technical rating of a route, is what it is regardless of exposure, length, or gear placements.

 

i just need to clarify something.

 

it sounds like you are agreeing with lummox (how much will you hurt yourself if you fall... relates to class 3 vs. 4)

 

but then you say the rating should only relate to technical difficulty of the climb.

 

is that a contradiction?

[Rodchester]

Yes, but no. I said he got it right in simple terms. And I agree with it in a general sense.

 

But your implication is correct: that the moves are the moves regardless of how far you'd fall or how screwed up you'd get in a fall.

 

Exposure has nothing to do with the damage that will occur in a fall. Exposure, at least in my mind is more mental. You could be six feet off of a ledge that would catch you in fall, but the exposure could be wicked. And that could be on a class 3, class 4 or some aid route.

 

So no direct correlation in the sense of actually rating it, but in a simplistic and tongue-in-cheek manner, his point is on target.

 

But thanks for calling me on it, you're right.

[Peter_Puget]

As originally defined class was only loosely alligned with difficulty and was specifically defined with manner of climbing. (ie how belays were set up, when hand holds stated to be used) Consequences of a fall can be deadly anywhere. The clearest example of this is some of the trails in Zion National Park. In many places a slip on one of these trails would result in a huge fall and certain death. Yet this would still be class 2.

 

When first created all 5th class routes were rated merely "5th class" There was no distinction between 5.0 and 5.8, for example.

[richard_noggin]

If the Mountainsteers rope up it's 4 class.

Use of hands and if you fall, you will probably die.

Rock climbers solo it .

Alpos carry a 3ft ice ax.

 

[chucK]

fern said:

Matt is an experienced guy and guidebook

writer. Maybe if you say something useful on the topic you can get your quotes published like Dru

 

If Matt really is trying to get info for a guidebook, then the answer is obvious. Clearly 3rd and 4th class distinctions vary widely between users and even sometimes vary with context within user. Because this is the case, a guidebook written by Matt should clearly define what HE considers to be implied by the words 3rd and 4th class.

 

If Matt is trying to decipher another person's beta for inclusion in his guidebook, he shoud query that person for what they mean by "4th class" in the specific context.

 

Finding some consensus using a thread on CC.com then using that as your basis for grading scrambles in a guide, then considering this is a well-known standard would be a poor strategy .

 

Finally, if Matt was specifically asking for guidebook help, maybe he should have stated as such. And if he wasn't asking for input for his guidebook, then Fern is the dork .

 

 

[Dru]

class 2 = an easy scramble. you need to use your hands a bit, but not consistently

class 3 = you are using your hands constantly, but the scrambling is not difficult

class 4 = a difficult scramble where less experienced people will want a rope for mental security even though they can do all the moves no problem. overlaps with low 5th class. practical difference is mostly related to other factors than how hard it is, namely exposure, greater position on a route or whatever.

 

Class 4 can include both simul climbing and pitches which are belayed but on which pro is not placed (leader solos dragging rope for benefit of second) as well as pitches which are 3rd classed but which the scrambler feels are more difficult than class 3 and should be noted as such.

 

For instance:

 

Class 2 - south ridge of tricouni Peak from meadows to west; summit ridge of McGuire

 

Class 2-3 - chimney on Black Tusk; west ridge of Needle Peak; Crown Mountain summit pyramid; SE slopes Mt Truax; standard route on Lady

 

Class 3: south ridge of Welch; SW slopes oF williams Pk.; w ridge N twin sister if you deke out right on the face wherever things get tough

 

Class 3-4: east ridge of Welch Peak; west lion Tourist Route

 

Class 4: Castle towers central summit (crossing notch); NE ridge needle pEak; W ridge of N Twin sister following crest; N ridge of Shadowfax; standard route on Rexford; north ridge of Tricouni

 

[klenke]

If you're climbing a route and you drop your cell phone and it tumbles all the way down the mountain, it is class 4 or 5. If it only drops into a hole between boulders, it's class 3. If you drop your cell phone and then step on it right afterwards, it's class 2. If you drop it on your rug at home, it's class 1. If your cell phone call gets dropped, it's class 0.

[catbirdseat]

The class has nothing to do with exposure or the consequence of a fall, but only with the difficulty of the moves. Distel32 is absolutely correct. The decision to rope up or to protect a route is influenced by a combination of the risk of slipping and the consequence of falling. It is completely subjective.

 

Class three = occasional use of hands required

Class four = extensive use of hands required.

[lummox]

catbirdseat said:

Class three = occasional use of hands required

Class four = extensive use of hands required.

i hada girlfirend who was kinda kinky. class four fersure.