WTF? roped climbers on Rainier w/o pro...

[Attitude]

____________________

[Rodchester]

I'm not sure, but wasn't that famous self arrest on K2 where everybody was roped up and one person saved them from a self arrest? I believe no pro was placed then.

 

I guess they were all experienced folk.

 

You are correct Stephan. That is also my point. Its usually not the technigue (SP?) used, but those using it.

 

But I do agree with him that the example of the six tied together on Lib-ridge is not safe, and that the "I'll belay you up" while he simply coiled rope withoput any actual belay is a totally unsafe and crazy way to do it.

 

I bet he hit it on idiot day.

[Sloth_Man]

Must've really pissed off a bunch of mounties with this one or something.

 

Fuckin morons couldn't understand the simple logic of the original post. I'd sure like to see someone stop the leader with a self arrest. G'me an f'n break. Just the outcry itself says a lot about how stupid these people are and how personal they take criticism of a technique that they undoubtably employ themselves.

 

Ya know rather than getting your mountie panties in a knot maybe you could have addressed the issues raised in the original post and explained how it was prudent to rope up on steep exposed snow without a running a belay.

[Rodchester]

Ya know rather than getting your mountie panties in a knot maybe you could have addressed the issues raised in the original post and explained how it was prudent to rope up on steep exposed snow without a running a belay.

 

Sloth-man:

 

Simple Simon Assumption that everyone is Mountie.

 

I think some, in fact many, of the posts addressed the issue more or less directly. Mine included.

 

Why the bitterness? Why are you calling people stupid for calling people stupid?

 

If I misread your post, I'm sorry. I won't assume you're stupid.

[glassgowkiss]

you hit this on the head sloth man.

for all you unbelivers out there please- go to your local crag, tie a 100lbs tire, give yourself 20 ft slack on the rope and have someone throw the thing off the top. now try to catch it with a hip belay. i would bet a large sum of money 9 out of 10 would go to the ground. iam talking from my own experience here. and add now another 40, 60 or 80 lbs. now you are also standing on a 45 degree slope......if you go to any crag a 30- 40 ft fall will yank a beleyer of the ground. there is a reason for it, called gravity (climbers body mass and acceleration)

on a 50 degree slope the speed of falling body is pretty equal to a free fall and if you read any book it will state this clearly.

another factor (i am not talking about second falling, but the person on the sharp end) that you are trying to catch a fall 2 factor. because of this even if you catch that other person during a 300ft fall, the rope is going to brake. This is how Kukuczka died on S face of Lhotse. "Napal" Pawlowski had a strand of rope left, broken at the device after the leader took a 300 ft fall.

Now all you mountie readers read this carefully. i am not talking here about glacier travel, crevasse falls and all this stuff. i am talking here about climbing on a 40- 55degree slopes weather ice or snow. using rope in these conditions is way more dangerous then solo- if you don't put pro. it gives you a falls sense of securuty. while unroped you know the consequences of the mistake, hence you focus more.

The posts pointing these fact were not chest beating or anything like that. simply it is a dangerous trend, spreading like a bad weed. and not only you are a danger you yousef (which i don't care about), but also to everyone around (including myself- which i care about). accidents like one on Mt Hood last year are the living (or dying in that case) proof how false this technique is.

[Bodynazi]

Easy there ladies. Geez. I never claimed to be "joe alpine master," OK? Perhaps my tone was a bit too negative and I should have been neutral - but then would we be having this fun?

 

AlpineK Glass, Slothman - my sentiments exactly. - yes if it were hard ice for prolonged periods I'd consider simo (sp?) climbing w/ fixed pro.

 

If anyone is dumb enough to think that I climbed that route unroped to be "tough" then you are indeed a dolt. We did rope up for crossing the berg at the top for ~ 20' so there!

 

You think you want to be roped up when dealing w/ crevasses?????? Brilliant. I never thought of that

 

My point was that people were roped up w/ no pro on slopes that were steep enough that if someone fell, with the slack in the rope, it was likely that the party would not be able to arrest the falling climber - and that seemed dangerous.

 

I guess there are people who get their panties in a bunch on all boards. Deep breath and relax....

 

I passed a party of six 500' before Thumb Rock - going up - and they were roped together w/ no pro. On the descent of the Emmons-Winthrop route, we passed a group of 7, yes 7, climbers roped together not placing any pro. Winthrop, when soft, is not steep enough to really fall on so that may be OK.

 

We did leave earlier than everyone else as to avoid roped climbers above us.

 

Yes - it's rather obvious that if a party is going to encounter repeated technical sections where a belay is necessary then keeping roped up between those sections would save time and be a good idea. Not exactly rocket science...

 

"if you're roped up to someone competent" I believe I said in my 1st post that experienced climbers can arrest a falling climber - groups of 3,4, and yes, 6 probably will have a difficult time with that task should it become necessary with major slack and general unawareness abound.

 

It looks like many agree - I was hoping so. Thanks.............

 

BTW, Lance is kicking ass in the Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré if anyone is a cyclist

[Rodchester]

accidents like one on Mt Hood last year are the living (or dying in that case) proof how false this technique is.

 

Accidents like the one on Hood are of no comparision what so ever. They have nothing to do with the technigue. On that ground/terrian the technique works, and it works very well.....assuming that the climbers are experienced.

 

The accident on Hood was caused because too many climbers were compresssed into too small of any area and few (if any) had the real experience and training need to self arrest effectively in what is classic self arrest terrain.

 

The slope on which it happened is not steep, and many here on this board have walked down it.

 

The technique works on the right circumstances, with the right people.

 

It is excessively simplistic to say that the accident on Hood is proof that the system doesn't work.

[glassgowkiss]

just don't get anywhere near me with you proper technique mountie......

[Bronco]

Our party was a day behind Bodynazi's. I think the group you're talking about also left a dozen blue bags at Thumb rock. The conditions were firm snow with big bucket steps pre-kicked. I think a very strong climber could have arrestted a falling rope mate (shortroped) but, we still placed pickets between climbers on the rope because we had them, my 2 partners were't feeling 100% and there was a little rockfall. I don't think I'd want to be on a rope of 6 (or climbing below them) so, I'd have to agree with the inital poster that they should've placed pro if they weren't comfortable soloing.

[vegetablebelay]

Maybe they couldn't decide on who would carry the rope

[Cpt.Caveman]

I think putting that many people on a rope is a possible hazard. Situations dictate though...

 

I believe more than 3 on a rope would be hard to hold any falls.

 

Also I think people bitching and complaining about it could be a good eye opener for others. Of course you cannot force anything like rope and glacier travel technique on them though. It's up to them to make those decisions. I'm no alpine master but I know it's FUCKING hard to arrest a fall without pro sometimes.

[Bronco]

Cpt.Caveman said:

I'm no alpine master....

 

More like an alpine bastard!

[Bug]

Rodchester said:

I'm not sure, but wasn't that famous self arrest on K2 where everybody was roped up and one person saved them from a self arrest? I believe no pro was placed then.

 

I guess they were all experienced folk.

 

You are correct Stephan. That is also my point. Its usually not the technigue (SP?) used, but those using it.

 

But I do agree with him that the example of the six tied together on Lib-ridge is not safe, and that the "I'll belay you up" while he simply coiled rope withoput any actual belay is a totally unsafe and crazy way to do it.

 

I bet he hit it on idiot day.

I agree. The K2 arrest involved two separate ropes of three with one in a makeshift stretcher. The arrest was made by driving his ax shaft into a crack in a rock, not snow or ice. Very specific details involving very intensely experienced climbers.

[Rodchester]

6, or as he said one group had 7, on a rope would be a bitch to handle even on a relatively flat glacier. As I said above, I agree that is too many on a route like Lib-Ridge. Personally I can't think of ever having more than four on a 50 meter rope on a glacier.

 

But the technique is not in and of itself a bad one as Glasgowkiss seems to asert.

 

Leaving blue bags on the route.

 

I doubt they were locals, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

And Glasgowkiss, I'm no Mountie...never have ben one either. Self taught. Now i guess you'll say that expalins it or some BS.

[Dwayner]

Stefan said:

I'm not sure, but wasn't that famous self arrest on K2 where everybody was roped up and one person saved them from a self arrest? I believe no pro was placed then.

 

I guess they were all experienced folk.

 

It seems to me that the famous incident on K-2 with Pete Schoening, Dee Molenaar, etc. involved a quickly placed boot-axe belay which saved the day for the whole big rope-team.

[Cpt.Caveman]

Dwayner said:

Stefan said:

I'm not sure, but wasn't that famous self arrest on K2 where everybody was roped up and one person saved them from a self arrest? I believe no pro was placed then.

 

I guess they were all experienced folk.

 

It seems to me that the famous incident on K-2 with Pete Schoening, Dee Molenaar, etc. involved a quickly placed boot-axe belay which saved the day for the whole big rope-team.

 

I've never heard of anyone else ever pulling off such a feat. I dont know the specifics of that arrest but have heard of it.

 

I know it aint easy to arrest just one other climber if he\she gets moving. You can convince yourself otherwise by justifying this ONE situation but that's pretty silly if you ask me.

[Stefan]

Funny thing. You never hear about the stories about the rope teams on extremely sloped terrain that never make it from a fall. Well, maybe that isn't so funny.

[Bronco]

I'm thinking it was possibly the big group from Denver in crackman's photos. (see Lib Ridge photos thread)

 

Here's a funny story, within 15 minutes of each other, we had 2 teams of 2 arrive at Thumb Rock on Saturday afternoon. The first group (wearing shorts and tee shirts) melted snow and took off immediatly, carying less than 20 lbs each. The second group had these beheomoth packs that had to weigh over 60 pounds and had a full rack of ice screws, dog bone quick draw's on each screw, jumars and were wearing full on expedition type goretex bibs. The temp was about 60 degrees. The second team was beat and comented how glad they were to have stowed some gear in Gacier Basin (I cant imagine what they left behind). The first team just shook their heads and took off again. We talked to the expedition team and found they had a lot of high altitude experience (a lot more than we did) and were just used to taking that slow and heavy approach. I don't doubt they could live up there for a week no problem where as we were thankful for the heat so we didn't have to burn up our last day's fuel to melt water.

 

Also on Friday afternoon, from camp on Curtis ridge, we witnessed a group of 3 out on the final slope to Liberty Cap that had reportedly first been seen leaving the proximity of Thumb rock at 8:00 am. I don't think they summitted until 5 or 6 in the evening, moving slow and making us worry about the conditions. I'm really curious as to what casued them to move so painfully slow.

[Bob_Clarke]

Body Boi Nazi girl you crack me up. You were whining like a school girl (trask - can you picture it?) trying to get over the schrund. Yea I'm the guy that left over an hour after you and passed you on our way to the summit.

 

Your opening statement was pretty bold. But being from Colorado I'll forgive you and not going to waste any more of my breath.

[Off_Route]

Stefan said:

Funny thing. You never hear about the stories about the rope teams on extremely sloped terrain that never make it from a fall. Well, maybe that isn't so funny.

Sadly true, few such stories go 'round spoken by the victims. Still, there are plenty of third-person accounts to clarify that being roped up can getcha dead, sometimes more often than not.

 

Rope is good. False sense of security is bad.

 

[iain]

Ropegun2002 said:

Body Boi Nazi girl you crack me up. You were whining like a school girl (trask - can you picture it?) trying to get over the schrund. Yea I'm the guy that left over an hour after you and passed you on our way to the summit.

 

Your opening statement was pretty bold. But being from Colorado I'll forgive you and not going to waste any more of my breath.

Now THAT'S funny Maybe they weren't acclimatized...oh wait

[Norman_Clyde]

Another interesting detail about Pete Schoening's heroic save on K2: it was not a boot-axe belay, but a hip-axe belay.

[Bodynazi]

Ropegun, I’m not gay, but your manliness certainly makes me wish that I was – along with you. Only someone with extremely large testicles would do LR w/o a helmet on. Are you by chance single?

 

You should feel extremely proud catching my partner and me – as he had time for little training and was far from peak condition. I’m surprised you didn’t catch us earlier.

 

“Whining?” Right. Luckily, I was able to keep my skirt away from my crampons on that section – plus the Vagisil helped there too.

 

Another strong point: slamming Colorado climbers – exactly. I will take personal responsibility for the lack of glaciers here; I do sincerely apologize to all. I climbed a section of WI3 once (on TR of course) – and I drove to the top of Mt. Evans (14K) last summer – so there! (Actually I had a headache, so my girl – I mean boyfriend had to drive as I was lying down)

 

Your points were right on to the concept of my original post – thanks for playing.

[iain]

[David_Parker]

Dwayner said:

Stefan said:

I'm not sure, but wasn't that famous self arrest on K2 where everybody was roped up and one person saved them from a self arrest? I believe no pro was placed then.

 

I guess they were all experienced folk.

 

It seems to me that the famous incident on K-2 with Pete Schoening, Dee Molenaar, etc. involved a quickly placed boot-axe belay which saved the day for the whole big rope-team.

 

I believe it was none other than local climber Dee Molenaar that made the save and you can read about it in "K2, The Savage Mountain" There were two ropes, but they became entwined and there was a certain amount of luck that they all lived. Also at the time they were coming DOWN with Art Gilkeys dead body. This is quite a different scenario than a fall while going up.

 

I contemplated this very thing while tied to my Partner while climbing N. Face couloir of Buckner a few years ago. When we headed up, we expected to put in intermediate pro. But as it turned out, we were both totally comfortable climbing 50'-60' slope without the pro. It was a matter of us both wanting to keep moving and not deal with putting in picketts or putting the rope away. Plus, we never really knew if we were going to put something in if it was really available. I agree that a picket in the case of 150 feet of rope out between climbers is pretty worthless after the leader puts it in and has moved 30 feet passed it. What went through my head was that the second should have a system where he can quickly escape the rope and let his partner fly by and die by himself if he can't self arrest. One dead is better than two. Still, if the second falls, the leader has a chance of catching the second if the rope is fairly taut between them and he always has at least one tool in. So basicaly it's a crap shoot. I'll let some mathematician play with the odds.

 

Basically, it amazes me the that 1/2 experienced so called "ice climbers" are not willing to solo. Like Alpine K said, if they don't feel comfotable, maybe they shouldn't be there. All ice climbers climbing with TWO tools should consider their tools as PRO period. Leave the rope in the pack, climb side by side, talk to each other and enjoy the comraderie of climbing together!