BG TRAIL USERS BEWARE!!!!!!

[iain]

tight-jersey leg-shavin'

[Thinker]

So learn me up on this....

 

What's supposed to happen in those ambiguous areas in an intersection where the white line that delineates the bike lane suddenly disappears? Are bicycles traveling in the bike lane supposed to yield to turning motor vehicles? Are cyclists supposed to get off and walk their bikes across the pedestrian crosswalk? Are motor vehicles supposed to watch for bikes moving at 30mph+ coming up from behind as they turn?

 

What does the law say? And what happens in practice?

[b-rock]

I merge into the lane and expect traffic to respect me as any other vehicle....

[Sloth_Man]

Another peeve of mine is that come up fast from behind and on the right at the light thing. Whenever I pass a cyclist I always make sure to keep an eye on them at the intersection because I know they'll do this. They seem kind of stupid that way. That's what I mean about being a vehicle one minute and a pedestrian the next. Since 98% of them do not follow the rules of the road consistently it's kind of hard to predict what they'll do.

 

And I'm one of the only drivers actually paying attention and staying within the speed limits.

 

I would never ride in the city there just isn't enough room. To me it'd be like climbing right next to a constant avalanche of large blocks and saying 'well the large blocks always go down that gully. They never bounce over this way'.

[iain]

not enough room? very depressing to hear that people have this attitude about bike commuting. no wonder there are traffic problems.

[jon]

Thinker said:

So learn me up on this....

 

What's supposed to happen in those ambiguous areas in an intersection where the white line that delineates the bike lane suddenly disappears? Are bicycles traveling in the bike lane supposed to yield to turning motor vehicles? Are cyclists supposed to get off and walk their bikes across the pedestrian crosswalk? Are motor vehicles supposed to watch for bikes moving at 30mph+ coming up from behind as they turn?

 

What does the law say? And what happens in practice?

 

Yes they can ride across and yes you must yield to them.

 

Did you know that in Bellevue that you are supposed to wait for a pedestrian to be completely off the cross walk before you can turn. Who obeys that one.

 

Riders who ride up along cars at an intersection without a lane are idiots. They need to get behind a car, clear the intersection, and then get over to the right. I call people out on this all the time. I have had people yell at me when I'm at a stop light and in the middle of the lane. Reason why I and others do this is so we don't get cut off into the curb at the end of the intersection.

 

Complain and question laws all you want, I've seen stupid stuff on bikes but nothing compares to what I've seen drivers. Remember that you car is essentially a weapon and that cyclists, no matter how much you hate and despise them, are not targets or obstacles on the road, they are just normal people gettting some exercise.

[Alpine_Tom]

b-rock said:

I merge into the lane and expect traffic to respect me as any other vehicle....

 

Not me. I always assume that the car WON'T make room for me, won't let me merge, will assume that I'll get out of his way.

 

And, I stop for lights, stopsigns, and pedestrians. I figure that the cyclists I see barrelling through lights, grabbing cars for lifts, and threading between lanes of stopped cars are pissing the drivers off (and it sounds like I'm right) so I take advantage of the lights to be a positive example.

 

That doesn't keep folks in cars from flipping me off, or throwing stuff out their windows at me, (though that happens a lot more often on rural roads than in the city.)

 

And yeah, I wear a jersey. Having pockets in the back is convenient for keys, walkman, etc. Bicycle shorts are clingy to reduce wind resistance, and having had a bee fly up the leg of a pair of baggy shorts while on a ride, and sting the most tender skin on my body, I doubt I'll change from my shorts anytime soon. Sorry if you think they look tacky.

[Thinker]

jon said:

Thinker said:

So learn me up on this....

 

What's supposed to happen in those ambiguous areas in an intersection where the white line that delineates the bike lane suddenly disappears? Are bicycles traveling in the bike lane supposed to yield to turning motor vehicles? Are cyclists supposed to get off and walk their bikes across the pedestrian crosswalk? Are motor vehicles supposed to watch for bikes moving at 30mph+ coming up from behind as they turn?

 

What does the law say? And what happens in practice?

 

Yes they can ride across and yes you must yield to them.

 

Did you know that in Bellevue that you are supposed to wait for a pedestrian to be completely off the cross walk before you can turn. Who obeys that one.

 

Riders who ride up along cars at an intersection without a lane are idiots. They need to get behind a car, clear the intersection, and then get over to the right. I call people out on this all the time. I have had people yell at me when I'm at a stop light and in the middle of the lane. Reason why I and others do this is so we don't get cut off into the curb at the end of the intersection.

 

Complain and question laws all you want, I've seen stupid stuff on bikes but nothing compares to what I've seen drivers. Remember that you car is essentially a weapon and that cyclists, no matter how much you hate and despise them, are not targets or obstacles on the road, they are just normal people gettting some exercise.

 

Wow, Jon, you're getting pretty worked up here, even imputing some motives to me that don't exist. Fact is, I try to be respectful of cyclists....I consider many of them friends, even Alasdair.

 

Thanks for the info on local laws on the question I posed; it's quite informative, and something I've been wondering for quite some time. And with the several experienced riders contributing to this thread right now I thought it would be a good time to ask it.

 

I'll not further address your snipe about my hating and despising....it's simply not true and you don't have a basis for implying it is.

 

Peace Bro

[cj001f]

Alpine_Tom said:

And, I stop for lights, stopsigns, and pedestrians. I figure that the cyclists I see barrelling through lights, grabbing cars for lifts, and threading between lanes of stopped cars are pissing the drivers off (and it sounds like I'm right) so I take advantage of the lights to be a positive example.

Stopping at stop signs may change in Oregon:

 

HB 2768 - Passes the House 47-9 and moves to Senate

House Bill 2768 allows bicyclists to recognize stop signs as yield signs, requiring them to maintain and yield the right-of-way but not requiring a zero mile per hour stop. HB 2768 is based on a similar law in Idaho. Idaho transportation planners find that non zero mile per hour stops for cyclists are safe, do not impact crash rates, make cycling easier, and do not endanger children or pedestrians.

 

 

 

[jon]

It's all good.

 

If you have any questions a guy I race with is a police officer and I can ask him.

[Sloth_Man]

I try not to hate cyclists. But the holier than thou attitude doesn't do much for me.

 

And I'm not daily road rager either. I ride the bus to work. Cycling could be fun if it weren't for the autos. I hate autos more than anything else in the world (except when it's taking me to the mountains). But I've got to question your intelligence if you think it's fun to ride on city streets. Maybe you guys have lost your sense of smell and hearing, as well as your sense of self preservation. Exhaust smell and engine noise are some of my least favorite things.

 

I think there should be whole roads, lanes, whatever dedicated for cyclists and pedestrains. But from a pedestrains point of view many cyclists seem a lot like drivers on commute to me, and that's where I started in this thread and that's where I'll end it.

 

 

[jon]

Sloth_Man said:

I try not to hate cyclists. But the holier than thou attitude doesn't do much for me.

 

And I'm not daily road rager either. I ride the bus to work. Cycling could be fun if it weren't for the autos. I hate autos more than anything else in the world (except when it's taking me to the mountains). But I've got to question your intelligence if you think it's fun to ride on city streets. Maybe you guys have lost your sense of smell and hearing, as well as your sense of self preservation. Exhaust smell and engine noise are some of my least favorite things.

 

I think there should be whole roads, lanes, whatever dedicated for cyclists and pedestrains. But from a pedestrains point of view many cyclists seem a lot like drivers on commute to me, and that's where I started in this thread and that's where I'll end it.

 

 

You should move to Holland, I think there is an article in Outside about how they are essentially elimating cars.

[Toast]

Dwayner said:

Hey big-talkin' Toast and Alistair:

 

Maybe you shouldn't bother calling "the pigs" when someone is busting into your car, house or whatever in the middle of night, or when you're getting mugged in Seattle, hit by a bike, car or bus, etc. And if these law enforcement officers should show up to assist you when you're in dire need, make sure you address them as "pigs". They'll probably insist on helping you despite yourselves.

 

Okay Dwayner, point taken... My comments were stirred by years a cycle commuter and several instances in younger years where the encounters with police were never positive.

 

Today I'm a little more respectable, a little more likely to garner a "Sir" from an officer rather than a "punk," a little more likely to have something the police would protect.

 

I acknowledge that the police do server the public and do deserve some respect from that standpoint. At the same time I think we all need to acknowledge that Law Enforcement in general can get quite wacko without adequate public oversight, that civil liberties are abused regularly through intimidation on the streets, that youth, minorities and the socially disenfranchised are often the targets because they don't have a voice that carries much weight.

 

That's where the Pigs came from...

 

[Attitude]

jon said:

Some facts. The reason you see some cyclists on roads and then on sidewalks and back and forth is because in a region that claims it is so devoted to cyclists they are aweful at putting in cycling lanes. This is the land of the disappearing bike lane. It dangerous for everyone involved.

Bike lanes suck.

 

Cyclists have the right and responsibility to be an integral part of the traffic flow. As Thinker points out, the problem with bike lanes is at intersections, where typically the bike lane disappears.

[Toast]

I think this is covered already but... One thing that peeves me is when cyclists hug the curb at a red light when they intend to go straight. I try to either occupy the lane or hug the left side to allow a car to turn right. Unfortunately sometimes assholes drive up the slot, then try to blow you off the line. So much for being courteous.

[Off_Route]

Sloth_Man said:

I can't even count the number of time's...I've seen jersey boys go...oh my god what's with the large groups of matching jersey boys? ...AND WHAT'S WITH THE FUCKIN JERSEYS AND TIGHT SHORTS? ...we have to see your fuckin balls...look sweaty going down the road...Ahhh... those testosterone poisoned confidence challenged guys, ...there just isn't enough.

[Dave_Schuldt]

Wow look at the shit storm I started! Seen on the BG trail in the U district today; a woman riding a road bike while talking on her cell phone. I was blown away. FUCKING STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!

[AlpineK]

MisterE said:

Dave_Schuldt said:

Libral and proud of it!

 

Uhhh, Dave? You are making conservatives look smarter with that kind of spelling...

 

Jesus Dave, I'm sure you have a spell checker, at the very least check your signature.

 

Or change your signature to say, "Idiot and proud of it."

 

 

And Dwayner.... Fuck the Pigs.... and fuck your sorry, conservative, dilettante ass

Edited June 13, 2003 by AlpineK

[Dwayner]

Alpine K writes:

"[Pube-Club] Dave, I'm sure you have a spell checker, at the very least check your signature.

And Dwayner.... Fuck the Pigs.... and fuck your sorry, conservative, dillettante ass"

 

Classy K....if you're going to resort to such language, YOU might at least use a spell-checker for such words as "dilettante".

 

- Dwayner

 

[AlpineK]

your right D, but it ain't my sig, which appears over and over.

[estivate]

Sloth_Man said:

Another peeve of mine is that come up fast from behind and on the right at the light thing. Whenever I pass a cyclist I always make sure to keep an eye on them at the intersection because I know they'll do this. They seem kind of stupid that way. That's what I mean about being a vehicle one minute and a pedestrian the next. Since 98% of them do not follow the rules of the road consistently it's kind of hard to predict what they'll do.

 

Most drivers don't pass bikes like they pass other cars. They usually won't pull out into the other lane to pass. Why shouldn't we pass you right back, if the traffic slows? Bicycles pass on the right; cars pass on the left. That's the implicit rule.

 

I take it the scenario you are describing is the light has changed but there is a line of cars and you aren't moving yet; bike catches up and passes.

 

If you rode on a bike you would understand that a lot of drivers do crazy dangerous, heedless things. To quote you, "Since 98% of them do not follow the rules of the road consistently it's kind of hard to predict what they'll do."

 

 

 

 

Sloth_Man said:

I would never ride in the city there just isn't enough room. To me it'd be like climbing right next to a constant avalanche of large blocks and saying 'well the large blocks always go down that gully. They never bounce over this way'.

 

Assertions like this suggest you don't know much about urban riding. Large speed differentials are scary; crossing traffic when you are moving at high speed is scary. In real urban settings, e.g. broadway or downtown seattle, you can more or less keep up with the traffic. There is minimal speed differential. You can often just take a lane. It's actually a safer riding environment than places like bellevue.

[Pencil_Pusher]

I agree, riding in Seattle is good enough. You worry more about pedestrians crossing the street than cars. Riding on Airport Way sucks but then it's that speed differential thing. I'm not too keen on riding in the rain, more due to driver visibility concerns.

Off topic, Denver is a good city to ride in because they have two separate off-road bike paths (paved) that take you right into downtown from suburbia.

[Off_Route]

 

Yep, it's when I'm close to traffic that is going a lot faster that I feel most vulnerable; if the speed differential is great, the potential for catastrophic energy transfer is also great, as suggested previously in this thread. For that matter, my hair stands up just a little more if I'm going much faster than the traffic too. Same difference.

 

As the practicality of bike riding in Seattle goes, increased crowding of cars seems to be actually favorable! I note an increasing proliferation of tracks where a half-way capable rider on a road bike can often keep pace traffic, or close to it. Also, bike lanes and sidewalk access provide alternatives that work well, especially if the biker maintains a generous consideration for both pedestrians and drivers, regardless of who may or may not have the legal right of way.

 

On my present commute, I've found Aurora (of all the places) to be a favorable stretch. There is a lot of room, and with traffic the way it is these days, a bicylist can often keep a speed common to the flow. I feel comfortable, most of the time, riding a bike around here. In my view, it's folks that are cooped up and watching from a perspective of inexperience or naivete that are suffering from most of the freaked-out perceptions.

 

[gregm]

my what an enjoyable ride to work i just had; cool, quiet, pleasantly invigorating...

 

i've been avoiding this thread because i figured it would be the usual, and now that i skim it i see that it is.

 

while bikers necessarily freak out about cars because of the enormous potential for injury i can say that the biggest collision i've had ($40 damage to my bike) was from a collision with a biker behaving stupidly.

 

i think the sad truth is that bikes will always play by two sets of rules. there are too many weird dangerous intersections to be a vehicle all the time. sticking to traffic laws will not in any way insure a bikers safety because the biggest danger is still the biker not being seen by the motorist.

 

most of the motorists and bikers i encounter are very curteous, some motorists and bikers are assholes. i see guys on bikes with cell phones that aren't watching where they are going (in addition to the motorists of course).

 

in these times of hatred and intolerance i think we should examine the utility of avoiding sweeping generalizations when deciding who makes the roads unsafe.

 

YAASS

 

 

[chucK]

Thinker said:

When climbing, on the other hand, the vast majority of the consequences are directly related to my actions alone. I can choose whether or not to cross a slidy looking slope, to run out a rock route, or to back off and go drink beer.

 

But the point is that the risk in climbing, at least for me, is much more directly related to my decisions alone....compared to cycling in the city where one relies on traffic to obey traffic laws and upon drivers to actually see you.

 

 

In climbing, the reason the vast majority of consequences are directly related to your actions is because there are SO MANY MORE CONSEQUENCES. Virtually every minute you spend climbing can result in injury or loss of life. I don't think you can say the same about biking (unless the only biking you do is on Lake City Way or something like that).

 

You can view biking the same way. Cars are an objective hazard. There are things you can do to minimize the hazards. Different bikers choose different levels of risk. Just like climbing. In your analogy, with respect to bikes you have decided to "back off and go drink beer".