Limitations?

[chelle]

It's a little slow at work so I'm hoping to get an interesting discussion going. So please chime in.

I've been reading Twight's book 'Kiss or Kill' and found his challenge about personal commitment to push one's limits and find out what is possible to be pretty interesting.

What keeps you from making progress on climbing goals?

a. Motivation/Commitmentb. Availability of partnersc. Feard. Physical limits/injuriese. Spend too much time on cc.com spraying about itf. Otherg. All of the above

For me, my limit was fear, availability of partners with similar goals, and conflicts in priorities of where to spend my time (work/relationship/family/climbing). Fear is more under control now that I have more experience, and I'm working on addressing the other two.

[Wallstein]

h. MONEY!

[Juneriver]

Yeah, I'm feeling a bit against a wall right now.Fear is one that seems to be getting in my way. And it varys from day to day. I absolutely hate being so inconsistant that I can solo up steep icy gullys one day, and the next day get all panicky inside looking at a ten foot fall at Little Si(like what I did this last weekend).Sometimes that screaming in my head gets a little too loud. If anyone has the cure-all for that, I'd sure like to know.

Oh yeah... lack o' dough. That's the other biggie.

[Bronco]

a. Motivation/Comitment - For me it's not placing Climbing ahead of other priorities and comitments that keeps me from really "going after it".

[DPS]

weather

[Wallstein]

quote:

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Originally posted by Juneriver:

Sometimes that screaming in my head gets a little too loud. If anyone has the cure-all for that, I'd sure like to know.

---

I have a cure that works for me. Don't keep the screeming inside your head. Let it out. There is nothing wrong with a little external communication with yourself. I find that if I tell myself outload to com down, relax or just to fucking send it works a lot better than just thinking it.

[W]

This may sound out of left field, but here goes:

 

I'm discovering that the urge behind having "goals", the need to "push one's self", and "find limits", this striving and effort to BECOME, is actually the very thing that prevents any sort of progress in climbing, or anything else for that matter. All this being caught up in trying to be something other than what one actually IS right at that very moment, blocks insight and hinders understanding.

I used to look at climbing subconsciously as "filling up a box" in my life. What I've only recently discovered is that the box has a hole in the bottom. In this realization is release, and freedom. Being free from all this striving has resulted in not only a incidentally drastic improvement in my climbing and mental state therein, climbing bigger and harder routes, but there has been a equal and immediate improvement and stability in all the other areas and relationships in my life. Everything flows when we are not wrangling and stressing out over trying to be "better". The truth of this has its own, liberating action.

I think we tend to overspecialize ourselves and pursue one thing to the exclusion of everything else. But everything is related. If one relationship in your life is out of balance, so are the others. Improving one's climbing, in my view, doesn't come strictly from focusing on the climbing, it comes about through a total seeing of what is, and a concern with each and every one of the immediate relationships around you.

Finally, I might say, fear is an old acquaintance of mine just like for anyone else. I'm finding that fear is not something to be controlled. The mind produces fear and also produces the entity that says "I must control fear". If one is aware of this dualistic illusion we create for ourselves, fear passes away merely by paying attention to the mind's activities.

[erik]

i would agree with you 'w'. that all limiatations are self created.

i used to put alot more mental effort into what i was doing and only ended up over thinking situations and creating limitations. because 90% of the time you can make the move or place the gear or whatever. but you just need to know that you can do it. and thinking of consecences only makes oyu dwell on them instead of success.

now that i take climbing less seriously i have seen greater improvements within my ability and my willingness to push my pre-conceived limitations.

another thing that i have noticed to help me improve is to get more partners. i found myself always climbing with the same guy and he can pull harder then i, so i always found myself in the followers role more so. once i got more abd different partners, i found that i too had the leadership skillz i just needed to implement them.

for me to make my mind at ease whilst climbing i think of a couple things. things that i know i am good at and enjoy. it allows me to relax.

girlz and muzic dats what i use.

[Retrosaurus]

Embrace the fear. Fear can be a powerful ally. Fear is a potent motivator. It can be a tremendous source of focus, concentration and power. Learn to use it.

[chelle]

Glad I started this thread.

W- I like your zen attitude. It's something I've been striving for, but backslide into our culture's planning and assessment traps. Perhaps a liability of my current profession - marketing/strategy consulting...

Norman - I totally agree with your thoughts on gut instinct. Your story was interesting and fortunately turned out not to be a tragedy. Until I got injured from not trusting my gut, I never truly valued it.

In 1996, I chose to go snowboarding in blizzard conditions, even though it was only my second day on a board. My gut told me it was a bad decision, but I ignored it figuring if it sucked I would just retire to the lodge. On the second run I caught an edge and fliped over backwards on a steep section and sprained my neck very badly. Instead of retiring to the lodge, I retired from just about any physical activity for nearly two years. Now I pay very close attention to my gut instinct.

The fear I dealt with when I first started out was less about being afraid to climb because of exposure and more about performance anxiety from lack of experience. Was I strong/skilled enough to not be a liability to my partner? How would I react if something went wrong? Can I really trust the system to hold me if I fall?

I still deal with each of these questions to some degree and new ones creep in. I approach them differently now that I have more experience and know more people who climb that I can talk to.

[mneagle]

It seems like there are 2 different interpretations of the question:

"What limits you from climbing as often as you would like to?"

or

"what limits you from climbing harder?"

I could climb more often and I would probably climb better, but to do that would mean spending less time with my other passions, some physical, some intellectual and the #1 which is the woman I am madly in love with. Climbing holds an important position in my life, but it's a big world out there and spending one's life on a cliff seems too limiting. In regards to the second question, I suspect I am not unlike many others in that as long as I enjoy myself I don't really care what the route is rated. Having goals is OK but only if you take a healthy approach to it. Getting stomach cramps from anxiety on the way to the crag would not seem healthy.

Here's the question I'd ask:

What keeps you from making your life more fulfilling?

[KeithKSchultz]

After 30 years of climbing I realized that what was holding me back was climbing.

[W]

"What keeps you from making your life more fulfilling?"

I guess I might rephrase the question as- "what is fulfillment, and why do we seek it?"

It's been an arduous task to examine this question in myself. What is really behind this urge within us, to fulfill and to gratify? We are constantly moving from one gratification to another, always seeking something- the object of search frequently changes, but search continues nonetheless- whether it is climbing, your job, your search for a soulmate, or whatever. But we never ask why we seek, or whether what it is that we seek actually has any reality. The end goal of any search is the product of our own thoughts and ambitions, and through the attachment of a system, method, or a supposed "path" to that end, that truth, we actually forever separate ourselves from that truth- for the system, the method, the ideal, is what becomes all important. In other words, we use any means to gain the end- but never question whether the means IS the end. All of this breeds a ruthlessness in society that is quite apparent today, if you look at what is happening in the world today. Saying, I am THIS, and will become THAT, effectively states that you will gradually change, become that tomorrow, while today you will continue on being this in some form or another. We have occasional flashes of brilliance and then idealize them; rather than allowing truth to act upon us, we try to act upon it. Our problem is that most of us aren't actually serious about anything, though we go to great effort to prove and show outwardly otherwise.Again, I stress that it is extraordinarily important to see- not just intellectually- that the person who is trying to control him or herself, is the same person who is being controlled. The dissolution of this dual image of ourselves is the beginning of right relationship, to people, nature, and possessions. Everything else follows naturally when the self is not striving for control. It sounds confusing and self-defeating to say you can do nothing- but that is our problem, I think- We think doing nothing is just that, we don't trust the natural order of truth to guide our actions. Experience and knowledge have their importance, but all the experience in the world matters not if the mind is caught up in projections of what might, what should be, or what it wants. Notice your thoughts and attachments as you do any activity, and with careful attention you will begin to see the traps and pitfalls the mind unwittingly sets for itself.

[KeithKSchultz]

To lose oneself in the 'here and now' is my goal. My best moments in climbing are when I make a move or series of moves that come not as a thought but only as action. The loss of self as the rock projects me upon its canvass is what keeps me coming back.

My favorite memmories are from the days I was doing 1st ascents in the Bitterroots. It seems like everything else is just a reminder. It wasn't about the grades or the guide books. I go back now and find routes I did and then forgot. In a little more time I will go back and do them as first ascents again. Eventually, I will just keep climbing.

[W]

Keith, I agree- one of my biggest hindrances to climbing "better" has been an obsession with "climbing"- i.e.- the technical grades, numbers, and the attendent bs that comes with it. Funny thing is, I didn't start off with that problem, at first there was nothing but the joy of experiencing life in the mountains and these amazing, high, inaccessable places. Then the mind and the conditioning of society gradually kind of took over for awhile. After I got over the ego trip of comparing myself to others and constantly trying to measure up and perform by an arbitrary and meaningless standard, I am finding the freedom to bloom and "improve" (to use the term for convenience) without all this dead weight holding me down and preventing insight and learning.

You put away all the images and ideals and all you are left with is the here and now.

[Norman_Clyde]

Thanks for bringing this subject up. Worth talking about.

For myself, it's the need to balance my time with family that limits my total time in the mountains, and it's the fact that I have a responsibility not to take excessive risks, for my family's sake, which keeps me on the safe side both in choice of mountaineering goals, and in where or when I back off from my goal for safety reasons. As for the fear factor: every climber needs an awareness of risks, and the ability to make a reasoned estimate of them. If you're feeling an overpowering fear, search yourself for why it's there. Sometimes you can tell it's just anxiety, because you can take stock of your situation and see you're not at serious risk. Sometimes it's there because you know you're about to do something unwise, and in those cases you better be able to listen to your inner voice. Then sometimes it's just a deep gut feeling, and I favor listening to those as well. The only time I had a deep gut feeling that something bad was in store, I was right, and it came unexpectedly. All night before an attempt on the West Ridge of Forbidden I could not sleep. I was the only member of our group who had been there before, and had the least reason to be nervous. The next day, just after we climbed onto the snout of the unnamed glacier, it broke apart beneath our feet, sending us sliding downhill on a jumble of refrigerator-sized ice blocks. We were able to leap off and escape without injury. But I can't forget how my gut warned me about what my brain didn't know.

[willstrickland]

I've spent alot of time pondering this very issue and knowing what is holding you back is only one step towards improving.

For me climbing better means four things:

1. Climbing more often to be de-sensitized to exposure and falling, to have good endurance, and to have a keen feel for the type of rock.

2. Climbing with a still mind. This is a short way of saying all the Zen related things. A calm mind operates in the now and allows you to rid yourself of unneccesary tension. This allows smoother movement, committing to moves without hesitation, and climbing quickly and confidently.

3. Climbing easy as well as hard routes. I get antsy and boulder alot when not climbing routes. This inevitably leads to overuse injury for me. I need to get in the mileage on easy stuff that allows me to tune into the rock, build endurance, and flush and oxygenate the muscles for recovery while climbing enough hard stuff to improve and climb the routes I dream about.

4. Climbing regularly with the same partner of near same abilities, but mixing in others to keep the partnership from getting stale. I look at my best climbing days and they all have one thing in common...one of my two best partners was tied into the other end of the rope.

Numbers 1, 3, and 4 are easy enough, make climbing your priority and hash out a plan of easy and hard climbing days, adjust the plan by paying attention to your body, and you're set.

Number 2 is another story. Some people require all the rest of their life to be in order before they can have a calm mind. Some people (and I aspire to this) can summon an intense level of mindfullness (the Zen state, or "zone" for lack of a better term) at will. Some folks will never be able to calm the mind. Meditation is the best way to achieve this state, virtually every culture has had some form of meditation for thousands of years. I've also been investigating the "brain hemishpere synchronization" options (they've worked for me to a limited degree, but require regular use and seem to work better in conjunction with regular meditation. I've been able to evoke deep feelings of calm mid pitch by using brain-synch methods).

I honestly believe that if every climber who wants to improve just dropped the grade they typically lead by a number (i.e. the bulk of your "ticks" on a given weekend are 5.10, climb 5.9) and doubled the number of pitches gradually adding pitches until they are cranking off 20 pitch days as the norm. Then start adding harder stuff. Chances are you're strong enough now to climb the cruxes of routes that spit you off, IF that crux was a boulder problem off the ground. Adding loads of pitches will get you climbing with better endurance, a better feel for the rock, and will have you placing pro way faster.

I think Jim Karn put it best (paraphrased):"People ask me how to train, what to eat to get better. I think that when your desire to improve at climbing becomes the most important thing in your life all the other things like how to train will become clear to you. That's all I have to say"

Cool thread BTW.

[NoBolt]

Fear seems to be my issue. But it also keeps me alive.

[pope]

Yawn. Good morning. My success in climbing is generally limited by steep rock, smooth rock, wet rock and shitty weather. When faced with ground-fall possibilities, I become scared. This is not a limitation, this is common sense. I don't have time to reflect on what sort of character flaw is preventing me from reaching my potential, or whether there is a hole in my soul shaped like the Narrow Arrow, or whatever. I'm a busy man. When I can get out of the house to climb a bit, it's so much fun I don't really give a damn whether my drop-knees and back-steps look as clean as they used to, or whether I'm ever going to be good enough to belay Alex Huber. Who cares. Getting out, feeling the wind, wrestling with a steep crack, appreciating the way the evening sun illuminates the snowy summits, coming home with sunburn and sore muscles...all affirmations that I had an adventure (5.2 or 5.12).

[Dwayner]

Pope writes about the beauty of his climbing experiences: "Getting out, feeling the wind, wrestling with a steep crack, appreciating the way the evening sun illuminates the snowy summits, coming home with sunburn and sore muscles..."and trying to talk Dwayner into wearing a wig and stuffing his shirt..."all affirmations that I had an adventure"

[carolyn]

Thanks for the topic!

And thanks to those of you who are so honest. Often times, as someone new to climbing, it seems that those with experience know soooo much, have no fear, and can climb whatever they want. Its good for me to hear that even those of you w/different levels of experience have similar "limitations'.

A big part of climbing to me is about learning. Learning about oneself, the environment, and those around you. I guess if I REALLY thought there was an end to the process I wouldnt continue pursuing it. The responses on this post have demonstrated, to me, that climbing IS a constant growing/learning experience.

I guess my biggest limitation (other than location, finances, etc) would be my self confidence while climbing. Minus safety factors, I know there isnt any real "right" or "wrong" way to climb. You dont have to complete a climb. Its okay to slip and take a short fall. There will be times when you dont know and you have to use your own judgement, your gut feelings, and make a decision. These are all things I "know". I need to stop selling myself short.

Another limitation would be that I need to stop being so damn analytical. I waste so much energy (emotionally and physically) thinking and planning rather than doing. If given the chance I could sit at a spot where I am struggling on a climb and analyze it all freakin day w/out making a move (ok, so maybe that is stretching the truth...not by much , tho ). If I just TRIED different things instead of thinkin about it so long I would probly get further than I could ever imagine.

Finally, fear - which has been a common theme. I really dont have much physical fear (as of right now). And when I do experience it, Im very good at working thru it and moving on. My fear is centered more on my decisions as to whats really safe and whats not. My guess is, as I gain experience (and confidence) this fear will diminish somewhat.

This past fall I had two wonderful experiences which helped me realize these limitations...One where I climbed all day w/out much analyzing. It was amazing! Like a dance! I strive to make every climb like that day.The other, my partner decided to start "yelling" at me whenever I would stop. Okay...HE put a bit of fear in me by yelling! But that fear pushed me to stop thinking about the next move and just go...and fall..and go...and fall. It was a great reminder that falling(literally and figuratively) is ok and can help you learn (usually faster) than analyzing.

One more thought, and then I PROMISE I will stop my rambling .

Often we look at our limitations or weaknesses and try to figure out how to get rid of them. I guess I like to challenge myself and would challenge the rest of you to look for a way to use them as strengths instead.

Now, Im done.

Thanks for hearing me out!

carolyn

[Cpt.Caveman]

My fat belly really slows me down. But one day I will go on an expedition and lose it Yeah right

[texplorer]

There is too much "getting in touch with your feelings" talk on this post. Just go climb. Be bold and when fear knocks on your door embrace her. For fear is life and without it life is boring. I have turned back on climbs from prudence but never from fear.

PS. many good points amongst the earth talk crap on this post.

Carpe Diem

[sexual_chocolate]

Krishnamurti quotes on www.cascadeclimbers.com! He was quite the climber himself, you know. Unfortunately, it usually consisted of climbing on another man's wife. How disappointing this was to find out, yet "Heros eventually fall....", as Outkast (make sure you check Aquemini!) raps....

But, damn if W's post ain't straight-up insight! I wonder how many times I've grown to hate climbing, simply because I've gotten caught up in the mentality of striving for some future gain or goal (once I'm better, THEN I'll really climb!), instead of being where I'm at, either inspired right here right now, or NOT inspired (and forgetting about climbing until I am inspired.). I always need to forget about being "better", and simply do what inspires me. There really seems to be no "better" or "worse", only "try as hard as I can"! "Better" or "worse" is just comparison to some projected ideal, and god it sucks! It's so limiting, and soul-sucking! I always hate climbing when I'm trying to measure up to some silly and arbitrary(!) ideal. I don't give a fuck what anyone else climbs! (Whew. I feel better now.)

So, to answer the question of what limits me (in terms of having fun. If climbing ain't fun, then what is it? A silly method to try to prove our self-worth?):

1. comparison to others, or some ideal. 2. believing that there are limits. Any limit I believe in would simply be a projection of my fears, no?

Hey, thanks for listening, my CC.com revolutionary comrades! Merry Holidays!