Mountaineers Intermediate Class?

[payaso]

I finished the Basic Climbing course this year and really enjoyed the experience, as well as the knowledge I gained in about 6 months time. I was able to summit 6 peaks (4 Glacier and 2 Rock) and want to go for more next year. I've heard some of the Pros and Cons about the Intermediate program and would appreciate some thoughts from some people who have found themselves in a similar situation. My perfect situation would be to simply be able to climb at this same level next year with about the same # of climbs. I do not feel ready, nor currently have the desire to lead rock. Do you "develop" this desire to lead rock? Once again, if anyone found themselves in a similar situation please share your thoughts. Thanks.

[ 10-25-2001: Message edited by: payaso ]

[chucK]

Dude, I'm intrigued by your reluctance to lead. If it is because you don't feel ready and perceive it as dangerous, consider this. Many of the "leaders" that you are following up a mountaineers climb have exactly the same amount of experience as you do now. You are putting your life in their hands. Wouldn't you rather control your own destiny?

If you just want to climb with Mounties on the basic level you can still sign up for the basic climbs as long as you stay a member. I did that for a while. It was a bit harder to get on climbs, but no problem if you just sign up for the harder ones.

Chuck

[Bronco]

I dont know about the Mountaineers courses but, I am somewhat of a newbie myself and can tell you that just because you don't have any desire to lead on rock now, doesent necesarily mean you won't sometime in the future. I really want to learn to lead (and I am) to develop as much self reliance as possible. It's safer to be in the mountains if you arent dependant on someone else knowing what to do in a given situation. Maybe I am just a control freak and need to have the security.

[payaso]

My reluctance to Lead is mostly attributable to my having only summited on 2 rock climbs. It seems that if I go into the Intermediate class I will be starting to lead having only really done 2 peaks.

[Cpt.Caveman]

I like to climb on rock. I like to climb on ice. I like to climb on snow. I like to drink beer Rock climcing may or may not come into your interest. But if you desire certain summits and goals it might. Don't rule it out and climb like spiderman Later

[gapertimmy]

I think the best way to learn to lead is to find a generous mentor(s) who will show you the tricks. I think its highly beneficial to learn techniques from as many people as possible. Like just this past weekend, I learned tricks from my more sport oriented friends. The more tricks you got in your pack, the better.

[ScottP]

quote:

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Originally posted by payaso:

Do you "develop" this desire to lead rock? Once again, if anyone found themselves in a similar situation please share your thoughts. Thanks.

---

I believe that after doing only two rock climbs, your lack of interest in jumping on the sharp end of the rope is normal. As you do more rock routes, gaining a better sense of balance and movement, your confidence level will increase; perhaps it will to the point where you want to lead. I have climbed with a friend who has done dozens of routes, but still has no desire to lead. You might be different. You might not.

[willstrickland]

Man, I top-roped rock for two YEARS before I even had a desire to lead. Even then it was only to be able to access the tops of some crags. Things change and five years after I started leading trad I soloed my first big wall. Trad rock leading skills will carry over to all aspects of climbing. Do what's fun for you and chances are as you gain experience you'll start looking for variety. It's all for fun and personal exploration anyway right?

[Matt]

When you're just figuring things out it can be scary getting on the sharp end. For me it's off and on. Somedays I'm fighting with my partner for the best leads. I don't want to give them up for fear that I'll miss leading one of the better pitches. Otherdays I could care less and I'm happy to let my partner lead, especially if it's a sport climb and he's a stronger climber.

Basically, the more you do it the more you'll love it-- or else you'll learn that climbing isn't for you. I've known guys who own full racks but could never get over the fear factor. They would get sewing machine leg on mellow 5.nothings and could never enjoy the rush. It takes skill and know how to confidently place good protection while on lead, especially when you get into the higher grades. You have to learn how to rack your gear, how to read the rock for protection options and how to relax and hang out while you place it. The best way to learn how to place gear is to clean gear.

So yes, to answer your question, you'll get hungry for the lead. It's a great feeling to be the first person on top, set up the anchor, and belay your partner up while you check out the scenery.

[Cpt.Caveman]

I like climb rocky!

[texplorer]

To climb is human, to lead divine.

Leading is a bit scary starting out simply because you don't understand all of what can and can't happen. Read the many good points above, find a competent leader and pay attention to him/her on the rock. It's actually great training to belay a leader. You learn when they need rope or tension and how to posture yourself to clip bolts or place gear confidently. If you continue to climb chances are you'll get tired of having to toprope everything. Try to get over your fear of falling and learn to place good gear. Be smart and you too will enjoy many experiences on the sharp end. Carpe Diem

[DPS]

I don't think anyone has mentioned it specifically, so I will. You said you have only rock climbed in the mountains. To get better and develop the skills necessary to lead safely you must go to the crags. The short approaches and more difficult terrain will hone your budding skills far quicker than climbing peaks.

[mikeadam]

Good point Dan. I just wanted to add one thing.

Cragging (sport and traditional) will develop your overall TECHNICAL rocks skills (movement and gear management) faster, but may not neccesarily prepare you for efficient movement over 3rd and 4th class terrain such as found in the mountains. Ability to climb/lead 5.11 and ability to climb 1500ft of 4th class using various roped movement techniques should be considered as well when designing an overall program of climbing development.

Mike

[Cpt.Caveman]

For sure there is a difference in the mountains and crags. I think I like both

Crags are friendly and well travelled. Bolts are there and anchors on tops too. Cracks tend to be clean of moss and dirt. Loose rock is mostly gone from well travelled crags. They are usually not comitting either.

Mountains = not so friendly all the time. Loose rock on less travelled routes, lichen encusted in some places, and scary runouts at times. Need to place your own anchors too. More comittment = not next to car. 4th class can be scary because a lot of times placing pro there is a pain anyways. The hospital is farther away too. Weather and so on.

Go to the dirt it is your destiny

[ 10-25-2001: Message edited by: Cpt.Caveman ]

[chris_w]

Cragging is a good way to get your confidence on rock. Once you get the confidence, it is great to look at a route and say "I can climb that" . With that confidence, and knowledge of rope handling, then start thinking about leading. And then start out on routes well below your ability. I didn't have mountains were I grew up, so I top ropped for a couple of years before I could get on any leadable multipitch. If you can find a mentor, that would be great. And you still can sign up for mountaineers climbs. There are some great leaders in the mountaineers. You just need to find them.

[Terminal_Gravity]

It was along time ago for sure. But I never felt really comfortable leading until I took my first leader fall. I was so hellish gripped, Intellectually I knew I would probably survive. I knew it was about to happen but I never gave up finally muscles failed & I popped. Scraped up and a bit of the wind knocked out of me, but still alive. I rested and finished the pitch. My emotions went through the same thing when I first used a friend. I bought my first few from Jardin in the valley. 25ft out above a 3 cam placement in a flared crack on Half Dome, and the sucker acctually held my 50ft wipper.

The moral or my point. Scared is normal but the shit acctually works. I've taken about twenty trad leaderfalls and the worst injury was a broken ankle and I've only zipperd out 2 pieces free climbing. But leading is truly a more rewarding experience then following. You should aspire to it.

One comment, even though the system works, don't let yourself fall, try your absolute hardest. The equipment is a back-up. This attitude will re-inforce good climbing habits and make you a better and safer climber. To often mid level sport climbers give up to easily because there are no possible consequinces to a fall.

my 10 pesos

[nolanr]

I agree, get more comfortable on rock cragging first, work up to leading there, then you can lead alpine rock routes. It took me several years to work up to that.

Another thing that was invaluable in developing the ability to keep my nerves calm when leading was doing 3rd/4th/maybe low 5th class scrambling free solo on various peaks. Never technically difficult, sometimes poor quality rock, but the mentality of "falling is not an option" was developed. You learn pretty quick that you can't allow your nervousness or fear, which is normal, to paralyze you. You stay in one spot, you peel off eventually. Sometimes you just absolutely have to move up or traverse or something, but you have to move. It's a trip, I did quite a bit of that one summer/fall, and the next year leading was quite a bit more mellow for me.

As far as Mounties intermediate class, I have a buddy who has been working on that for 1 1/2 years. You'll have to be a leader on a bunch of beginner climbs. Sometimes he's had fun w/ it, sometimes it's a drag being stuck w/ a bunch of gumbies. It might be a good option for you to gain more experience. Anyway, have fun whatever you end up doing.

[nolanr]

Alright, who gave me one star?! Battle cage buddy.

[Terminal_Gravity]

How did Caveman get down to a 2 star? He must be the most rated poster around!

[Lambone]

Caveman hath many enemies...Don't worry buddy your next!

Oh, and payso, don't worry just keep climbin and the desire to jump on the sharp end will come to you. Have fun!

[ 10-25-2001: Message edited by: lambone ]

[plexus]

I said I'd never buy an ice ax....And I did.I said I'd never cross a glacier....And I did.I said I'd never get engaged....And I did.See a pattern here?

Terminal, 20 lead falls?! Damn, you've earned your name haven't you.

Qwestion, can you call it a lead fall if your hold snaps off before you can clip into the piece you've placed? Or does taht go in the asterisk category?

[chelle]

Hey Plexus - I've had the same experience. Now most times when I catch myself saying never I realize that it's something I'll have to try.

This is my second year of leading trad climbs. I found a couple of good mentors to show me the ropes and evaluate my placements on lower grade climbs. When I wanted to push myself a little harder by climbing alpine routes and was concerned about my partner's ability to teach me away from the crags, I hired a guide for a weekend.

I've seen some mixed opinions about hiring guides on this site, but if you're clear about what your goals are they will teach you whatever they can. I learned a lot of things that have come in handy.

[ 10-26-2001: Message edited by: ehmmic ]

[terrible_ted]

Hey Pay:

If you enjoyed the basic course, then you'll probably find the intermediate course more satisfying. The instruction (always a variable...) is going to be more 'personal' and you'll find that leading on rock is approached in a 'baby steps' fashion.

Unless you're out climbing regularly with more experienced people, you probably won't find an easier introduction to leading trad climbs. I think the pace of instruction is gentle enough so that by the time you've learned enough to lead your first pitches, you'll be anxious to do so. Most of the folks that do complain, complain that the course isn't 'fast' enough or 'hard' enough.

You'll find that the 'basic climbs' that the mountaineers run are really not much harder on lead than they are for the follower. You have 5 years to get a handful of those and and a pair of more challenging 'intermediate' climbs to go, so no big rush in any case.

Besides, you need to take on the problems that leading on rock brings up in order to really make much progress as a climber. Learning how to rig and evaluate your rope systems is the next big step to take, even if you don't plan on getting into anything that hairy. In my opinion, the physical challenges are just not as significant as the mental challenges until you get up past 5.7 or so... A 5.11 gym monkey still needs to learn to avoid the Am. death triangle no matter how 'comfortable' they are on rock.

Besides, 4 out of 5 proctologists agree that leading is more fun... especially on ice!

-t

[Terminal_Gravity]

quote:

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Originally posted by plexus:

I said I'd never buy an ice ax....And I did.I said I'd never cross a glacier....And I did.I said I'd never get engaged....And I did.See a pattern here?

---

Plexus, I think getting engaged was the scariest thing you could have mentioned. The exposure is certainly extreme.

You know that is a going to be a good day when you grap the mail, head to the kitchen for some cereal....

and you find your girlfriends picture on the cover of Playboy

Your climbing partner on the Wheaties box,

and your wife on the milk carton!

[jhamaker]

I agree with all of the above. To learn to climb, you need to climb - lots.The Intermediate class assumes you can lead. Lots of people can't, so they get partway through the course, and have to bail.You will get the most out of the Mountaineers if you climb lots (w/ and w/o the club). Consider applying for the leader's list in a few yrs.

The Intermediate Course requires you to teach the basic classes - so wait to join the Int. Course when you feel you need a refresher on all those skills. Be sure to take the practice sessions before testing to do intermediate.

Don't be in a rush, there are several lifetimes of peaks out there in WA that will never require more than one ice axe and a rope to get to the summit.