Jon, our esteemed moderator.

[Terminal_Gravity]

Jon, I don't understand why you closed the thread on Krakaur. Sure there was the typical spray, but less than on most forums that get the interest of more than 75 posts.

I personnally think that it was an interesting thread. I hope that you don't get pissed at this lame attempt to re-open it.

I've read over 10 books that have dealt with 5/10/96 on Everest and am still curious about something. If J Krakaur was so much stronger than all of the other cleints and had to wait around (resting) why did he just let people die instead of helping. Yes, we know its hard, but people died and I find him atleast partially responsible. So to me it doesn't matter if he is a nice guy or a good writer. I think that he made one of the worst mistakes a person can make (in life or the mountains)...he pussed out while people died; and then he blamed others.

[This message has been edited by Terminal Gravity (edited 10-22-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Terminal Gravity (edited 10-22-2001).]

[lisa]

I fully agree with you, blaming others is easy, and sitting back and writing as a third party while others are busting their ass to save lives and make a differance....lame!!

[pope]

What we have is this. On the one hand, a number of wealthy individuals are foolish enough to think that hiring a guide can make up for their deficit of experience on one of the least forgiving hills in the world. On the other hand, a number of men are willing to accept their tuition and lead the former group into situations that can, with a shift in the wind and a drop in the barometer, evolve into conditions in which even a seasoned party might not escape. When Krakauer claims that he narrowly escaped to his tent, in the face of the deadly storm, I tend to think he had a better understanding of the situation's hazards than we do. I don't think we're in a position to question whether he made an appropriate decision in saving his own butt. Also, his analysis correctly identifies choices and practices that resulted in having so many inexperienced climbers high on the mountain. I don't recall him criticizing how the guides and clients handled themselves during the disastrous event.

Also, here's to Jon, our esteemed moderator, for performing a thankless job.

[jon]

Thanks Pope.

I closed that thread because the last 10 posts where people just talking smach to each other, if they want to do that they can use the private messages or email, otherwise they might as well just not post it. Pretty unfortunate for such an interesting thread, go ahead and continue the converstation here, here's the link to the old one as well. http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001070.html

[Lambone]

These weree the last two posts on that stupid pointless thread,

"Hey sexy cocoa- Even though you're a oddball headcase, you still write better than dru, who seems to think he's some kind of a high fuckin authority on prose. Go ahead dru, spray me with some of your killer wit, but whydoncha try being a bit less holier than thou; ya might even get an invite to the pub for a change. Spray on genious."

"Trask, I don't appreciated being used as a weapon of war in your personal struggles with DRU. If you have a problem with DRU, work it out with him; don't involve me.

Now please apologize."

"Are you fucking serious you head case."

My question is, what took Jon so long!???

Jons a nice guy, don't talk shit about someone who is doing you a favor in the first place.

As for Krackhead, who the hell cares! I think that he reduced himself to the level of a tabloid writer, but fuck it...this is America. Others have done far worse.

It is easy to speculate about what a "wussie" he was up on Everest, at least while you sit behind your computer down here at sea level...

The simple fact is that Anatoli was probably the only one fit enough to be out there in the middle of the night cunducting a rescue. Thats how it goes...If Krackhead had been out there too, it would have been just one ore body for him to drag back to camp.

 

[Lambone]

Wow, pope and I were thinking the exact same thing at once...how weird.

[mattp]

Itis easy to sit here at your desk and criticize JK or anybody else. On Everest as anywhere else in the world there is plenty of valid criticism, of course, but there is also a distinct lack of air pressure up there and it changes everything. Before I went over there in 1996, a friend of mine told me: “if you go up on one of the big guys, don’t think it will be like a normal mountain -- its every man for themselves up there – so take care of yourself.” And he was right. On a low technical route at high altitude I saw people coming and going at their own pace, with no concern for their “companions.” And I believe that one member of our party, a doctor, pronounced another climber dead when that climber was clearly not dead, just so he could justify in his mind not helping the guy. I don’t think that our doctor would have done that in the Cascades. It is a different world up there.

[This message has been edited by mattp (edited 10-23-2001).]

[sexual_chocolate]

Yeah, but you guys are forgetting the video. I think it clearly shows that, at the moment of impact, his head jerks backward. But you know what? When I watched it again, I thought that perhaps it was a recoil, which would justify the government's position. I took a lot of flak for this conclusion, but heck, I had to say what I believed.

And, by the way, Trask never apologized! And I was being nice. You all can read the posts.

[ScottP]

quote:

---

Originally posted by sexual chocolate:

Yeah, but you guys are forgetting the video. I think it clearly shows that, at the moment of impact, his head jerks backward. But you know what? When I watched it again, I thought that perhaps it was a recoil, which would justify the government's position. I took a lot of flak for this conclusion, but heck, I had to say what I believed.

---

If you watch closely, you will see that there is actually a pause between the forward motion and the backward motion. also, how do you explain the skull fragments moving toward the back...?

 

[Terminal_Gravity]

.

[This message has been edited by Terminal Gravity (edited 10-23-2001).]

[Cpt.Caveman]

I have never been nor do I plan to move as high or higher than 20000 feet.

Therefore I dont know what could have been done by Krakauer.

I read his book and thought that there was some evidence that he was not exaclty helping though.

You can call him all you want but you were not there so what do you know?

[Alpine_Tom]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Terminal Gravity:

I've read over 10 books that have dealt with 5/10/96 on Everest and am still curious about something. If J Krakaur was so much stronger than all of the other cleints and had to wait around (resting) why did he just let people die instead of helping.

---

My recollection from reading the book when it came out (I don't own a copy) is that he didn't say he was stronger, but he was more experienced than most of the other clients. He also said, in a way that sounded like he was assigning some blame to himself, that when he got back to high camp, he was so exhausted he crawled into his tent and let the guides handle the rescue. And that, this was to him one of the negative effects of being on a guided climb: a willingness to let the guides do the work. If it'd been a "normal" climb with just him and some friends, he'd never have let himself leave the rescuing to others.

What I've heard about climbing at those altitudes is what mattp says: you don't behave like a normal climber, even if you think you will. People leave others to die so they can summit, ignore other expeditions' accidents, ignore turn-around times and oncoming darkness. By all accounts, a monomania to get to the summit at ALL costs is part of the Everest effect. I think that this is one area where it can truely be said that you can't evaluate what others did there, if you haven't been there yourself.

FWIW, reading Into Thin Air certainly changed my view of Everest. Previously, I'd thought that getting the opportunity somehow to climb there would be like winning the lottery -- the chance of a lifetime. After reading JK's account of his experiences up there, I lost all my desire for going up there. (But, I'm getting old...)

 

[sexual_chocolate]

I think the pause is only noticeable at very low film-speed, which would allow us to view a natural body reflex mechanism. When a body-part encounters a resistance, it compensates by moving in the direction of the push, does it not? And if the push is so sudden, and of such high velocity as what a high caliber bullet would cause, there would be a pause before the body would be able to reflex, no?

Anyway, this was just my theory, after seeing the film for the first time. The show that I saw (on The Discovery channel) didn't talk about skull fragments moving rear-ward...they alleged that the skull had been doctored.

[hikerwa]

I have to believe that there was in fact a second on the grassy knoll.

[Bronco]

There is some good perspective on Everest Rescues in this account by Dave Hahn(solo):

http://climb.mountainzone.com/2001/story/html/hahn_everest.html

[Terminal_Gravity]

I do not mean to suggest that I find fault in JK's lack of action. I do think that they are suspect, however. I know how much harder 20,000ft is then 14,000ft. I can't imagine what 26k must feel like after a hard day. so, maybe he did all that could be expected.

I also know what it feels like to try to save somebodys life. I almost died trying, and I failed. I am still living with some of the ramifications of the injuries I sustained trying, but that is nothing compared to the emotional trauma I live with.

I don't feel any ill will for JK for what he did or didn't do on the mountain; I wasn't there. I do take issue with what he wrote and especially with the fact that he never publically recanted his views on Boukereiv.

[Dru]

it was a real alien in that autopsy footage.

[nolanr]

Last year I saw a slideshow by Ed Viesturs. During the Q&A I asked him if he thought things had changed much, it terms of guiding, on Everest since the disaster of '96. He said some individuals have changed their point of view on it, but it general it's exactly like it was before '96. He thought it's only a matter of time and the wrong circumstances, and there will be another similar disaster.

[sexual_chocolate]

NOBODY could have saved JFK. He was dead instantly.

[Dru]

I hope it (96 all over again) happens sooner rather than later because the publishing houses are starting to run out of tragedies to churn out best sellers about.

[Dennis_the_Menace]

Above 20,000, unless your a guide, you have no obligation to saves someone's ass. They chose to be there, accepted the risk and if they chose wrong, life sucks. Would I risk my ass to save my team member, yes, absolutely. Would I risk my ass to save a stranger, no.

[Lambone]

Thats a lame attitude, remind me NOT to help you out if the shit lands on you someday.

In my opinion, it's an unwritten rule that if a climber or team of climbers is in trouble and you are in the area, you drop what ever the hell you are doing and go help out. It's called karma - look it up.

But then again, mabye you just learned about mountaineering from the flick Vertical Limit...

[Retrosaurus]

'Bone,

I wonder if your opinion would be any different if you had just spent the last 8 hrs above 2,000 ft in the death zone?

Let us know when you get there.

-Mitch

[Lambone]

Boy, yeah I hear it's really rough above 2,000 ft...

Hey man, you do what you can - even if its just making tea in camp for people who can head out. It's a moral obligation to help if you can. If it's hopless, thaen I guess thats a different story.

Look at Alex Lowe on Denali, the dude carrys a guy that he's never seen or met before up to a spot where a helicopter can pick him up. Now thats heroism.

[This message has been edited by lambone (edited 10-24-2001).]

[terrible_ted]

Gotta agree with you on that one, bone...

That feat is the standard by which I measure mountain heroics...

Any other nominees?

-t