boots for Denali

[meganerd]

I just bought a pair of Nepal Extremes from La Sportiva for pretty general mountaineering around here (a bit overkill, I know) and my AOAP (As Often As Possible) trips to the Canadian Rockies and hopefully the alps. I'm just sitting here bored and wondering if they would be enough to get me up Denali, with hefty overboots and such. Just wondering if anybody had done it in leathers before...

[erik]

prolly ever single person till the 70's or 80's when plastics came out.

 

 

[Bronco]

I just finished reading "Mountain Men" and it covered the first ascent of Denali and first several attempts. Anywho, most of those guys wore "mukmuks" or some Eskimo calf high mocasin type boot made from seal skin like these:

 

that's what I'd wear, or some plastics.

[freeclimb9]

erik said:

prolly ever single person till the 70's or 80's when plastics came out.

 

"Plastics came out" during the Korean Conflict. They're referred to as Mickey Mouse Boots.

[specialed]

I've never climbed in super cold weather with leathers but from what I've heard and read, modern insulated leather boots and hybrids like the Scarpa Alpha are warm as hell. However, most of those dudes who have spent mad time in Alaska like Twight, House, et al. still swear by plastics and I would to. Its just a lot harder to fuck yourself with plastics and its nice to have a liner you can wear at the bivy and in your bag. The deal is to get some custom Raichle Thermoflex liners (not the ones for ski boots, but the ones specifically designed for plastic mountaineering boots) they run about $150 and are half the weight and about twice as warm as standard liners.

[Alex]

I would not wear leather boots on Denali. Its too cold.

 

I would wear leather boots for lower and more technical objective, perhaps below 14000, and certainly after mid-May.

 

Ultimately, if you are asking this question HERE, it means you dont have the experience THERE, and the question you SHOULD ask is "how much are my toes worth?"

 

If in real doubt, take a pair of each. It wont make a difference to the air service, or the cache at base camp.

 

Alex

[JoshK]

Interestingly enough, Scarpa Alphas, while a good hybrid are *not* very warm. Other "standard" plastic boots are generally quite a bit warmer.

[daler]

Joshk,

 

why do you say the alphas are not warm? I have worn them to -10f with no problem. I can barely tell the difference from my Invernos.

 

dale

[Jason_Martin]

I also have a pair of Invernos and Alphas. But unlike Dale's experience, my feet have been quite cold in the Alphas.

 

Physiology has a lot to do with it. Some people's feet get colder more easily than others.

 

I think you'd be hard pressed to find average climbers wearing leathers or hybrids on Denali. Many people actually wear plastics, overboots, and super-gators and their feet are still cold. Footwear is not a good place to skimp on such a cold mountain.

 

Jason

[JoshK]

I've only ever used alphas once, and while they are a great boot, I just didn't find them to be super warm. Friends who climb in Alpahs have also told me of similar exerpiences.

 

As Jason mentions, it's all about the individual. My toes definitely seem to feel cold a lot, so when I go to Denali, I am definitely going to optimize for warmth, not weight.

[meganerd]

Thanks for info. Of course I should reiterate that I would be going either with plastics or in the N. Extremes with warm overboots. Also, I don't think my feet get cold as easily as some others. On my last winter conditioning hike up to Muir, it was probably 0-10 degrees up near the top plus windchill and I didn't have insulated boots (old Karakorams in fact) and my feet weren't particularly cold (the rest of my body was a different story).

 

Anyway, it will be more than two years until I get the chance to go (spring quarter doesn't end until mid-June) so who knows what will transpire in that time.

[salbrecher]

The windchill has no effect, or very little, on how cold your feet are.

[Rodchester]

"Plastics came out" during the Korean Conflict. They're referred to as Mickey Mouse Boots.

 

Actually Mickey Mouse boots are quite different from what climber s call plastics. They hold air in chambers to insulate. They are also a "single" boot not a "double" boot. They have a rubber feel to them, as opposed to a plastic feel.

 

But you are right that they are not leather and are a synthetic material.

 

They are damn warm and were often used in Alsaka through the 50s, 60s, and 70s. They were still around during a good part of the 1980s too.

 

Denali = plastics...at least for my fat ass.

 

 

Remember to open the air valuve during airborne operations.

[Attitude]

salbrecher said:

The windchill has no effect, or very little, on how cold your feet are.

 

 

Wind increases the convective heat transfer rate from the body.

[freeclimb9]

Rodchester said:

Mickey Mouse Boots . . . were still around during a good part of the 1980s too.

They're still available, but now in black. Not quite the same fashion statement as the white bulbous ones.

 

BTW, Onesport used to make some extremely warm boots from leather. I've got a pair of Jannus, and they're HOT. Not the boot of choice for vertical ice, but a great extreme-cold boot.

[Dane]

"The windchill has no effect, or very little, on how cold your feet are. "

 

 

B.S. For any number of reasons.

 

But that isn't the question. If things go right and you have perfect weather any of the newer leather boots with a Super gaiter will get you to the summit. Above 17K won't be fun no matter how nice it is early summit morning and getting back down late.

 

Anything goes wrong, you get sick, weather comes in or any of a couple dozen other thing you'd have wished you'd brought plastic. Cheap insurance IMO for you not just your feet.

[fern]

Dane said:

"The windchill has no effect, or very little, on how cold your feet are. "

 

B.S. For any number of reasons.

 

 

can you explain some? ... just curious.

[Dane]

Your body protects the core temp first. Windchill saps body heat from the entire sysytem. High chill will effect your feet and hands first because as the body core lowers less blood supply goes to the hand and feet.

 

Same old adage...need to add or subtract heat, do so at the head and neck. That will protect or drain the body core temp. Body core temp in turn decides what the hands and feet get for blood supply, ie heat.

 

Your level of fitness, and how you hydrate and eat will have a great deal to do with how warm you and your feet stay.

 

Twight did a great job of addressing all this in his manual.

[Figger_Eight]

You can also think of how much each toe is worth. A pair of $400 dollar plastics break down to each toe being worth $40 bucks. This makes it a no brainer for me at least.

 

Heat is lost through boots via conduction, not convection - or your foot is trying to heat the colder boot by transferring the heat energy to it. When you cool the boot further by blowing wind on it, your foot has to try to compensate by giving the boot additional heat. Of course if you want to keep your foot warm, you prevent this from happening by insulating the crap out of the boot with a layer of trapped air between the skin and the shell (closed cell foam liner). Of course nothing is perfect and you'll lose heat anyways to the boot, which will in turn lose heat to the environment, especially if the wind is blowing it off the boot.

[ryland_moore]

So, not to drift the thread too far, what has worked for keeping feet warm up on Denali? I mean besides having a pair of plastics with high altitude liners and overboots. VBL socks? Multiple layers of smartwools w/ VBL, w/liners, w/ plastics, w/ gaitors, w/ overboots? What set-ups work for you all?

[bubblebutt]

I went up Denali two years ago and used Millet onesports.

I also own Scarpa Alphas and they are not warm enough for Denali.

Of the multitude of climbers I saw on the routes.

100% wore plastic, I'd say 50% with the yellow Asolo's, 25% with Inverno's and the remainder with Millet onesports.

You might escape frostbite in perfect conditions but they are few and far between on that mountain. Scarp Alphas from my experience are not sufficient either. Hope this helps

 

[specialed]

I've heard from a reliable source that it is just as warm to get your custom liners fitted with and wear one pair of liner socks as it is to get them fitted and wear multiple layers. I've never tested this theory in temperatures as cold as one would encounter on Denali, but in ten degrees or so thermoflex liners with just liner socks is warm as hell.

[Dru]

WHAT?? no one in the beautiful bright yellow Koflach Vertical also sold as the Koflach Arctis Expe? Best plastic there is. They even make a special inner boot with a rock shoe rand for alpine climbing though i think it was only distributed in Europe for about a year making it quite the rare item.

[gregm]

on the subject, if i ever go for denali i will likely want to wear my scarpa lazer ski boots with thermoflex liners. i formed my thermoflexes to fit with only a thin liner sock (standard prectice for skiing).

 

questions are 1) is that likely to be warm enough? (those thermoflexes are way warm, but i've never been at 20K) and 2) i've heard your feet swell at altitude. would that be a problem since i only have room for a liner sock?

[Dane]

7 Alaskan trips, single leather with super gaiters, leather doubles with super gaiters and 5 trips in plastic....all Koflacks with and without super gaiters or overboots. I suggest plastic and something to put over the boots besides normal gaiters above 17K. Normal liners worked fine but get damp. Later trips were done with custom made foam liners. Lots of good liners available now already in the boots. I used VBLs and a thin sox against the skin and a med weight wool over the vbl. Worked well in really harsh conditions. And were easy to dry in the bag every night. Save some guessing and make a couple of trips to Canada in winter and test your system there. Suffer penalities and beer are better.

 

I would look at the newest Vasque dbls if I were going again. Tackle knows as much as anyone what is needed in an technical Alaskan boot and he helped design them.

 

If they fit I'd buy them and a good hat