LostCamKenny

here the gloves for ya, kev. i have to sit this round out

i wuz jes pokin fun and tryin to make meself laugh, prussik - no ill feelings toward PMR or anyone affiliated with them. i am well aware of the taxi that will take you up to the top of palmer for a fee, though i have never taken advantage of it meself don't be sorry... its nothing bad. The PMR boys are the finest people for what they do

especially the part about the jersey-connecticut difference!

well said, bryan though, i respect the wildlife closure at beacon not because i find it truly necessary, but because i'd rather not be slapped with a trespassing charge. the necessity for a six-month closure at beacon (and i suppose, now, at madrone, too, if they ever get it open) is still debatable - a three-month closure might be enough...

i don't know much about tags and whether or not they should be required on bicycles, but cyclists most certainly should have to follow the same traffic laws as every other car, truck, or suv on the road. and enforcement should be revved up too since there are many cyclists who feel that they don't need to adhere to the rules of the road. i'll gladly share the road with bicycles so long as they are held to the same standard as motorists.

lack of roadside camping, yes. lack of hippies, debatable. i used to go up there every summer, as a kid, with my grandparents when they would go to stehekin and it never failed to see some group of backpacking hippie-types jumping into the lake from the landing for holden village. of course that is a pretty deep lake so i'll talk myself into believing that the piss and garbage sinks to the bottom.

i sense a good bit of logic in what you are saying, smithy, which is why i won't join the other sprayers in being absolutely outspoken towards this whole thing. but since you brought up the parents and helping their kids reach for and achieve their dreams let me add something else for you to think about. in the early 1980's (and i hate aging myself this way, but it seems necessary) as a youngster i used to watch oregon public broadcasting every saturday because it sometimes would feature adventurous topics. sometimes it was space travel, other times it was modern-day cowboys(ranchers) riding the open range for months during the summers. i also remember a few deep sea fishing programs that would put deadliest catch to shame, and any program concerning jungle exploration (or any kind of exploration for that matter) would completely mesmerize me. then there were the adventure sports like skydiving and climbing. one saturday afternoon in the spring i remember walking into my living room and flipping on the tv only to discover that the subject of that day's program was a fellow named john bachar, who was doing this extreme type of rock climbing called free-soloing. i didn't know what this was at the time and i didn't understand why he was doing it. and watching it longer and longer my only question at the time was, "what the heck is it that he keeps reaching into that bag for that is tied around his waist?" i was totally glued to the tv for those moments watching JB climb smoothly and effortlessly up the rock, and in the next few moments my mother came into the room. upon seeing what i was watching she changed the channel and told me that i could watch another channel. it was clear - after many years - that climbing was something that my mother would never have supported me doing. it took my going to college and getting bored with studying for midterms that spurred my interest in mountaineering. after our neighbor was killed on mt hood during the OES tragedy in 1986 (several years after i saw that clip of JB) it was clear that my mother would never - while i was under her roof - encourage me to take part in adventure sports. my parents never encouraged me to climb, but they always believed that i could do anything that i wanted to do. my mother, always the authoritarian, believed that if she gave me the guidance to make informed, educated decisions that i would go on to be successful in whatever it is that i chose to take part. ultimately i chose to rock climb, which led me to want to climb mt hood and the other cascades, and now i attempt such endeavors not because my parents guided my dreams (because those dreams didn't fully exist when i was a boy) but because my parents taught me to think and evaluate that with which i was presented. my mother took her job as a parent very seriously and she never approved of the risky, dangerous adventures - and still doesn't. when she asked me after my recent accident if it all was worth it i told her "absolutely." her response was, "well i guess you thought it all through then and weighed the consequences." when she and i recently spoke of that day when she turned off the tv while i was watching the late JB free-solo, i told her that i met JB and told him the same story (he laughed). she didn't know what to say. parents don't have to encourage their kids to climb for them to want to do it and if they do there is no guarantee that the kid will want to continue to climb. i've worked at a climbing gym in the past with kids aged 6-10, teaching them the basics of movement in climbing and some parents were there coaching their kids along side of me. others just brought their unexcited kids in and dropped them off, expecting them to get excited without them. you can't pump up a kid that doesn't want to get pumped up. my point (finally) is just that parents - like you are alluding to - make all the difference in what their kids do and get excited in doing. it is remarkable that jordan is doing what he is doing with the encouragement and support of his parents. if it was me and my parents i'd be at a baseball game.

reading about historical everest expeditions and then reading about and watching on the tube how expeditions have become is exactly the reason i stand behind what i posted earlier... i'm glad i'm not the only one who sees it this way. i was just looking for a more gentle way of putting it...

with respect to the impact that climbers have on a nest or scrape or what ever we are calling the site of avian procreation on a cliff, it is my feeling that an accidental, once-in-a-season-, or once-every-two-season-meeting between a climber and a nesting cliff-dwelling bird would have small effects on the bird - so long as that meeting wasn't repeated. the bird is able to adapt to changes in its environment, and subtle disturbances, while possibly detrimental to the adult's clutch, may not actually cause the bird to do anything more than squawk a bunch at the intruder. but then again it could (in a worst case scenario) abandon the nest. still, there is more that needs to be understood about the interaction between climbers and these birds before any judgement is made - future grad student climbers, that was your cue for a great thesis!

words spoken by someone who has been tested fully, no doubt, and i have no ill words for someone who speaks with such experience. it is my feeling - being such a terribly inexperienced extreme altitude mountaineer - that there are many other such mountains in the 8000 meter area that i would much rather try than everest. by this i only mean that everest has lost its luster to me as a conquest. being on the top of the world does have a certain allure, just not for me. i'd much rather summit cho oyo, or K2 ( see now i'm dreaming ) than attempt the extreme altitude version of mt hood. but smithy, i hear your experience.

joe, someone told me once that it is better to have someone you are at odds with "inside the tent pissing out than it is to have them outside pissing in." if you think for one second that i have not considered any of what you have mentioned in the original post on this thread then your ego is far bigger than anyone can possibly fathom. i act carefully when both my career and my climbing are concerned - especially my career. to do anything hastily in this matter, imho, would be a great error. i believe in careful planning with those who think and believe in similar ideas, while at the same time consulting opposing views for flavor to the plan. in short, i believe that everyone has a voice and should have an opportunity to sound off their opinion, NO MATTER HOW SIMILAR OR DIFFERENT IT IS FROM MY OWN! you on the other hand (admittedly, no less!!!) are a selfish person who doesn't listen to anyone else and goes off to do the work of joe, and work to fulfill your own agenda. those who follow you must not actually know the real you, or they just don't get your agenda, or they are happy with what you are doing because they see it as the ONLY option. the defenders of joe have blinders on. i have thought many times about bringing you into my ideas, but you so willingly give up your own opinion every time i see you that i know your opinion and don't need to bring you in. in a way i violate my own rule of including everyone because i don't want to include you because YOU DON'T LISTEN TO ANYONE BUT YOURSELF! so what's my problem, joe? you're my problem!!! go ahead and post one of your long-winded, research-filled, pompous-sounding dictations about how wrong i am - the entire board has seen you do it before and is no doubt expecting you to do it again. i'm immune to those posts now because i understand who you are... and there are others - many others - who feel this same way. the only reason they don't say anything is because they are being nice to you. in a way they are doing you a disservice since they won't tell you the truth... i don't give a shit - i'll call it the way i see it and be honest with you. you're an ass in this way and your ego gets in the way of everything. your head is so big that it is surprising, to me, that you don't topple over backwards off the rock when you climb because of it! i'm not your enemy, joe. i am your friend - or at least i try to consider myself one. you could easily change your way of acting and thinking, but i know you won't... at 58 you're too set in your ways. that is all.

btw elaine, thanks for your tireless work in keeping everyone updated about madrone

and yet you continue to put sooo much time into observing peregrines... you're no gov't official, joe, so what makes you think that you have any impact yourself? just askin...

purification tablets are lighter... and cheaper than either of the other mechanical alternatives (better for alpine style)

I was joking in the CRG forum the other day, but maybe i was unwittingly prophesizing the future of madrone, eh?

certainly they aren't joe-certified spotters

PMR takes the snow cat during recreational climbs?!?

alright bill, now you're just pissing me off

everywhere you go i'm sure you could find someone that you could pay to take you up a hill for a long walk in the snow, ice and rock(everywhere there are hills with rock snow and ice, anyway) - hell, i could find someone in portland to guide me up mt tabor if that was my goal (there's plenty of cabbies in portland that would drive me up there for sure!). point is that everest (and other BIG mountians with guided trips) isnt such a big adventure when you can take the adventure out of climbing it by paying someone to do a lot of the work for you. i mean how many lines is Jordan going to fix on his own? how much routefindning is he doing for himself? will he melt his own drinking water or cook his own meals? seriously. i like what leclerc suggested - alpine style - though i shudder at the thought of doing it myself.

hold on there smithy, so you mean to tell me that you have an extra 30-50K laying around? what are you - a hedgefunder? and don't misunderstand me, pops... i am not criticizing the kid - he's tougher than half the sprayer population here (meself included). i can't climb everest and K2 because i am not conditioned for such an adventire and i can't afford to travel to that part of the world for the time required to make such a dream a reality. therefore i stick closer to home where i can actually afford to climb.

this one's my fav

still, climbing everest is shown as a theme park ride almost - pay for the guide service and have the endurance to make it and you're there. anyone can climb everest if they have the money and drive, and that is fairly well accepted... even if it is a significant accomplishment. Backpacker magazine did a feature on Jordan and it painted a very down-to-earth picture of an adolescent taking part in some very serious business in the mountains. Jordan's climb of everest is anything but something to be jealous about. rather, one should be in awe of the mental toughness that the kid has to achieve the summit and return to basecamp safely. even with that said, everest is no longer just a mountain - it is a tourist attraction for the wealthy, also. sure, jordan's parents may not be wealthy, but that doesn't take away from the fact taht everest is becoming/has become a summit that can pretty much be bought so long as you (or someone on yer behalf) can foot the bill... everest: beyond the limit, anyone? surely that show defends this claim better than any opinion related to the subject can. personally, i want to see the kid make a go at K2 - when he's ready.

this'll teach me to fall in the early spring - everyone and their fucking dawg is going to the valley this spring! I wanna go!!! have fun scotty!

for some that is the definition of adventure.