gosolo

Skiing is a great family thing. My youngest kid has had a season pass every year of his life and at the age of 13 has been racing for 8 years already. I taught all three of my kids and here are some things I did. Anyway, I liked the "edgy wedgies", the rubber tip connectors when they are really young and I used the harness at first too. While you may not get much skiing in if you have a season pass it beats staying home watching cartoons. Both of those learning devices were useful but like any aid can also take some weaning despite the progress with those aids. My youngest used to fall asleep on the chairlift so be prepared for that. I realized this whole effort was paying off on a cold powdery day at Mt. Bachelor. He was about 4 and the snow was waist deep. His high speed snowplow resulted in a total yard sale and as I skied up to him I was cursing under my breath cuz I thought I had a cold crying kid and I didnt want to get my hands cold putting him together. When I got there he was laughing. I hope you have moments like those too. Stick with it being caautious about forcing it and you'll have a blast. Here is a couple years ago,

I have been following this thead and a familiar with Mt. Hood. I have nothing but the deepest compassion for the climbers friends and family. But realistically, there is little hope for the two missing. Any of you who were stuck in a snow cave for that long would be jumping out seeking attention in the current weather. Reality is difficult, but holding out false hopes does not help either. Based upon what the sherrif said this morning it sure sounded like a recovery operation, not a rescue today. My condolences.

I second the mild detergent. Make sure you decontaminate your stuff! It is imperative. One time I got in the stuff and didnt. I went out bouldering, playing with chalkbag. Took a piss. Yeah, you can guess what happened. Dont have that happen I can assure you that aint fun.

I am surprised that nobody mentioned the style of the FA. This dictates responsibilities. If you are climbing the route ground-up, on site, you have a responsibility to yourself of not dying. If it turns out to be an R or X route, then thats great. Although if you are a 5.11 climber putting up a 5.7 X I disagree with that. If you start at the top and the route is cleaned and rapp bolted, it is chcken sh&& to put dangerous runouts on the route. IMO you have an obligation to make the route safe if it is a sport route. With the ground up approach, the playing field is level. The FAists dont know whats up there and the following climbers dont either. On a route that was rapelled down and cleaned and or bolts put in, the playing field is not level. The FA team has valuable knowledge that the next guys dont have. That is why I think it is chickensh&& to put runouts on a route done in that manner. I was surprised to see many of the routes I did the FA of way back when (mostly in Utah) now sport an R rating. We didnt know any better back then and minimal impact was the name of the game. You get minimal impact through ability, boldness and as Healyje said, sometimes stupidty. The mindset that all climbing should be safe belongs in the gym or at sport crags, it does not belong at traditional areas. Traditional to me means ground up, whether bolts are added or not. Doubt this helps, but I do think the discussion of how the route was put up is vital to the discussion.

Nice wayne. Thanks for sharing your adventure.

I think it is pretty difficult to compare Mountain Rock Climbs with those in the well travelled areas. Alpinfox says to use commitment level. Yes, I suppose. However, the Nose is (was?) the Grade VI in America. However, retreating off that is not too difficult. I bailed from the Great Roof, 2,000 feet off the deck on my first attempt and it took 3 hours. Hardly a high committment level for a well rounded team. Factoring this in I think that the Whine Spires Ridge Traverse is a Grade VI. I am sure there are places on the route that offer a higher degree of committment than current trade routes in places like Zion, Yos and others. Over the years, the grades and sometimes the climbs themselves change and morph over time. If you go by the fastest ascent time of routes there are few grade VI's left on El Cap. But that aint fair for us wankers...

Do your plants look like this? My bro used to live in Denver. One night he heard a crash and went down to the front door to see a hand reaching through the broken glass trying to reach the knob. He fired at least three shots with his trusty .357. The cops told him off the record, "too bad you didnt get him. That'd be one less a-hole we'd have to deal with..."

dude, you shouldnt talk thataway about someones woman, or the goats in the first pic, or mike bending over! But if its all that rock you are excited about, check out the big stone in the Winds (N.Face of Mt. Hooker). Nice pics BTW Mike...

I would rate it 10+ to 11- (old school). But like many cracks it is dependant upon hand size (I have big ones). For a person that has climbed many cracks (ie: IC type) it is not to difficult. Good route. I only had Friends at the time and a number 4 was the largest I had and it never felt like I wanted anything bigger than that. My guess is that the ratings (up to 11+?) reflect a lack of crack climbing experience on different rock at different areas around the country. If one has travelled a bit and experienced many cracks in the 10 to 11 range it is not too bad. I thought the climbing above the crux was quite good.

There is a reason why you guys are still alive and kicking and posting on cc.com and not a rapp statistic. That is you have good tips and insight into the dangers of rapping. I too have a Mammut with the red blue weave and the three marks (two at ends and one in middle). Setting it up to rap last weekend I thought to myself that it was stupid for them to make the same marks. Then I remembered that climbing demands that my brain is ON at all times and I can't blame a rope manufacturer for my inattentiveness. It was pretty obvious how much rope I had pulled through the anchors. If it broke thats a different story. Here is another tip. When you start rapping off, make sure you have everything with you. A party in front of us had started the 1st of 3 rapps and left their rack and all slings lying at the top of the first rappel. First time I had seen this mistake and they did feel kind of silly for the error. The worst case would be if the ropes got stuck and they needed the rack to climb and free the ropes. That'd be a bummer.

Not much. I have not been to those routes but I was up there last weekend. I would not take crampons. I would take Bug Dope, especially near Blue Lake TH, those bugs are bad...

I remember the pulpit as being a challenging 5.9 and that was 25 years ago. The Best 5.7/5.8 in Zion is the Cave Route at the Base of Cerberus. Otherwise there aint much worth doing in that range.

I was up in that area last weekend. Not much snow, I doubt that approach has snow. I would never sleep in that parking lot due to mosquitos, they are hideous there. Not to mention that it says no camping. There are better and numerous places to camp towards Mazama within about 10 miles. Plan for about 1 1/2 hours (?) for the approach. It will help if you have other routes in mind in case there are crowds on that one. Approach is well marked. Start up Blue Lake Trail. Two looooong seitchbacks thru forest to Meadow and up climbers trail on the left. Watch for Steep Climbers trail veering left almost directly up to notch East of Liberty Bell. Have fun.

I agree with PP and cj, and not condoning us vs them, we are afterall all climbers, gumbies and experts alike! Even the expert is a gumby when he is out of his environment. However, I do believe that the gym and sport atmosphere more easily breeds that inatttention to detail in safety than climbing outdoors multipitch. And I too have seen the experienced climber screw up. This thread was about the newb transitioning to outdoors, and I am opining? in that context.

Good Points. That last one illustrates what I was tryin to say. What does it mean to get better? In the context of gym and sport it means higher grades. I would argue that safety becomes so routine in these situations that it becomes an afterthought. Safety is presumed. Bolts, TR's the objective of the gym and sport is improving the grade you climb or movement and strength. It is typically not to improve ones ability to face outdoor situations. My theory is that climbers who have this background need to shift gears (like mattp said) to recognize that until they get the requisite experience they must be more careful out there. I think this is why many beginning climbers have such a discrepancy between their trad and sport levels. They recognize there are different things going on and use their fear (in a good way) to regulate their climbing ability. I am not saying one way of learning is better than another. And while I may be coming off as a safety nazi, that is really far from the truth. It is just that learning 30 years ago placed an importance on having some understanding that on many routes falling was not a desired option. Therefore, the belief that safety was a given was also not there. The safety on an R or X route is in ones head and having the abiliity to know when not to fall (as well as protecting what is given you). I dont know what happened in this accident. But I do believe that ultimtely, when one learns in the gym, they must shift their way of thinking outdoors. Ultimately, to get better as an all around climber (trad, sport walls, alpine, ice), one must have a multitude of skills and judgement. What serves one well on difficult sport climbs may not be so good on a poorly protected route in the back country. Damn, thats a lot of hot air coming out on the keyboard!

I agree with ya. I wonder if there was a gym - real climbing thing though. In a gym everything is all set up and raring to go. Regardless, it is a tragic thing and I hate to hear about these accidents.

sweet lookin rock...and that summit pitch looks way cool. Good job and thanks for sharin

Everyone probably has a different perspective from their learning environment. You and your buddy could learn the exact same way from the exact same guide and still end up with some different perspectives. As far as general guidelines I learned in the 70’s mostly through basic and advanced rockcraft with Royal Robbins as my initial “text” books. Here are a couple old school perspectives. First, if you don’t fall on the climb, then the descent will be perhaps more dangerous and especially so if you are rapping. Rappeling can be dangerous and if you don’t fall on your climb then it is the only time you will be weighting your safety net system. Therefore, things must be checked and double checked. I have rarely used knots in the end of ropes and rarely used prusik back-ups. Instead, use the brakehand, and KNOW where the end of the rope is. This has served me well even when backing off the Nose from the Great Roof, some 20 rappels in bad weather. The other thing some of us old schoolers think about is falling. I do remember the (sometimes appropriate) saying that the leader must not fall and sometimes that is the best protection. While things have progressed, the simple fact is that if you don’t fall and don’t rappel, the rope is simply along for the ride and was an extra. Note that this is counter to Gym and Sport Climbing. So many people are out there thinking that the rope will save them whenever their protection system is weighted that it becomes second nature to depend upon that. Case in point, a climber was climbing a route I put up in Arkansas over 14 years ago. It was a long run to the first bolt. Since this was a sport climb I am sure that the climber was depending upon that bolt to be good. Note that the crux of the route was above the third bolt or so. The climber fell and the rock surrounding the bolt broke. When I analyze the accident, I see 3 things wrong. First is that the rock is sandstone and should have been suspect. Second, if you only have one thing between the ground and you, then care must be taken cuz you aint got no backup. Third, if the climber had been climbing more within his level I doubt he would have fallen there. This third point is lost on many. If you don’t fall then your ascent will be safe in the end. I believe that this second nature of trusting the rope has caused more accidents than the second nature of not falling and believing that your protection system is suspect unless you are very sure. While this statement may seem totally ridiculous to the seasoned sport climber, it is important for the newb. For it is the newb who may not be able to judge safety. My guess is that you guys who fall a lot are not newbs and have some idea of when it is safe to go for it. I am not saying that one cannot learn to depend upon the rope. Rather I am saying that the way gym climbers are taught presents them with confidence in the rope and belay system and sometimes that confidence is not warranted, and or not respected as much as it should be. Since this thread was about the newb, I believe that the self-preservation of the old school ways prevent more accidents than what is taught in a gym. I also think this is why many people can climb more difficult sport climbs than they can trad climbs (difficulties and strenuousness of pro aside). I don’t know if this young teacher’s tragic death was due to the transition from gym and sport to multipitch stuff. But I do think a healthy and different respect can prevent accidents. Sorry for being long winded but many of you are trying to put your experience to the newb. That is the problem. Many newbs don't have your experience to go on.

Totally Awesome pics. Thanks for sharing!

Good Job and thanks for sharing. And not to start a flame thread or anything but I had a sincere question. What factors did you weigh in your timing? (ie: it has been f$$$ing hot, why climb now as opposed to when it was colder.).

Way to regroup and snag another classic!

Glad to hear you are ok! That sucks.

The best traditional climbing in that area is at Sams Throne, Arkansas. Its been over 10 years since I climbed there but I remember it being about 2 hours south of Springfield off Ark Hiway 7 near Mt. Judea, Arkansas. There are good trad climbs from 5.7 to 5.12 almost all 1 pitch on awesome sandstone. It is a really cool place to climb and one of the best in that part of the country. I believe that there is some "misery" choss limestone around there as well, but personally, I wouldnt do that (been there dun that) as there are few redeeming qualities unless you are really hard up. If you are there in the summer, I would forget it. Spring, fall and winter are all pretty good but climbing in 100 degrees in 90% humidity is a kind of suffering that the Cascades don't prepare you for (hehe). You can find more info on rockclimbing dot com and maybe mountain reject. But here is what we is talking about: THE NATURAL 10a, great climb up a steep arete ARKANSAS REALITY 11dish If you are there when the season is right it is definitely worth a visit for cragging.

Cougars? Be careful they are the most dangerous of all wildlife...

yes, now that you mention it!