gosolo

well, you must be talkin to Joe. IMO people can climb anyway they want, it is not my business until they retro bolt a route. When they change the experience for others then that is crossing the line of good climbing practices... That was the original post.

I dont get that from Joseph. What I get is that all of us are victims of circumstance. We had a acertain environment that we learned in. the environment of most people today starts in a gym with bolts and rotues set for climbing. Getting on real rock in a "traditional" area can be a bit eye opening. This is easily seen by the numberr of gym climbers that climb 5.12 sport and 5.9 trad. Confuses the hell out of me. Climberrs today enjoiy the gyms and are crankin all manner of heinous things. But preserve those scary things as that is a dying art....

I agree with you JH. Furthermore, hanging, yoyoin, any of that is a far cry from retrobolting...

cool tr. Wish the pics weere bigger! good job.

DC, I agree that there are many routes from the pre-sport days that were either overbolted for the times, or chipped or otherwise messed up. I think this discussion comes down to what our ideals and values are. Back then, before sport climbing, the ideal seemed to be minimal impact to the rock. What are todays values?

While my initial post was a bit strong, I stand by some of the points. I may have been a bit short because this discussion is going on at many different areas. The majority of climbers today are seeking a thrilling yet safe experience. Safety from failure by the addition of new technology (cams) and old technology (bolts). Cams dont hurt anything, bolts are permanent. If a route is too bold for you, perhaps safety from failure can be attained by rising to the challenge? By being good enough to have some degree of certainty that falling is not likely? The fact is for every runout route there are many many safe ones to climb. Are there some routes that should be retrobolted? Probably, but these are so few as to be almost a nonexistant problem. There arer many routes that were put up in questionable style in the 70's but there were many more that were put up in god style. So long as your ascent did not change it for the next guy it does not really matter. The addition of a bolt changes the ascent. Superpin in the needles (Black Hills)is a good example. First climbed without any bolts by Paul Cleveland, his route is still unrepeated (?). the next route was done by Henry Barber at 5.10 and I think he placed one bolt. the route now has two bolts. I am not sure I would have done it with just one bolt, but probably. the fact is I did not have that choice. Someone took that away because they did not have the balls to either climb it as it was, or they did not have the balls to leave it for a time when they could do it. Either decision takes some guts. Adding bolts does not. The point is, by leaving traditional climbs in their curent state you are not changing the experience for futurtre generations. Please do not sanitize climbing more than it already is.

Here are some Generalities that anyone who learned to climb post 1990 ought to consider. Why did I use 1990? Because by then Gyms were starting, and sport climbing was pretty well established 1. In the old days it was about minimal impact to the rock. If a climb seems real bold it was because the FA was trying to preserve the rock for the next generation-not build a fuckin bolt trail so you could fall your way up it. 2. If you still call FA's on real rock "coursesetting" either learn the difference between real rock or go back to the fuckin gym. On real rock you simply climb what is provided. That is unless you are chipping then you may very well be a "coursesetter". It is ill advised to claim you are that type of course setter. 3. Think you are a 5.10 climber? Try tossing the rope away? What grade do you climb at then? Is this not closer to your real climbing ability? This may be the extreme, but the fact is if you climb 5.13 in the gym, but cant climb a 5.10 offwidth you are not a 5.13 climber and not a 5.10 climber either. 4. IT used to be not all about the NUMBERS, but rather the experience. When sport climbing came into being, the big cry was "we need to increase our standards to keep up with the euros!". I wondered whose standards they weere increasing. Not mine. The standard they were increasing was the RATINGS. But what about that 5.10X. The one with little or no bolts. The one where you didnt even try unless you had your absolute shit together at that grade? Who is increasing that standard? I like all kinds of climbing, but dont let your ignorance lead you to believe that some runout route was done because the guy was poor. Dont think that the FA team had an obligation to make it safe for you, that is utter bullshit. I do think when rapping and drilling a route that there is an obligation to make it safe, but ground up is different. Unfortunatley it is a dying breed and thosee of us who did this stuff are disappearing. Now climbers think that they have a right to climb anything and if it is too scary then they think they should add a bolt. Bullshit. Sack up or keep off. Pretty simple huh? Do you want your generation of climbing to take the risk away? Wow, what a proud concept, to stand up and say, "My generation of climberrs took the gym outside and wee retrobolted old routes to make them safer" Proud indeed.... Fear is a negative emotion. Fear while climmbing can be verry stressful on some individuals. For the accomplished Gym climber to be afraid of making porrly protected moves on real rock must surely suck, but it sure does seet the nnubers straight too. I guess 5.10 is pretty hard when failing means a broken neck....

Is this kind of like who can piss the farthest? Or who is the best spraylord? Or maybe my dad can beat up your dad? Climbing is obviously only as stupid as the participants...

I think another way of saying this is that the biggest issue is the proliferation of climbing internet sites and the gapers who spend all of their time on them

dru said.... Not sure if you get it or not, so let me expound. back in the day when many of the runout routes were put up they were done on lead, ground up, fair means. A runout route done under this style IMHO is fine and should be maintained. Way to many climbers expect that the great outdoors should be "safe" like their gym experience. I also think that guys who make sport routes dangerous are missing the point.

I just onsited this thread...no, your beta was not useful

Dirtyleaf, as you can tell, the posters here are all way VSC and VSP (very serious posers I mean posters!) .....Good Luck in your search!

Such an interesting thread I can’t help myself. I was living in Lawrence, Kansas at the time. Middle America, mortgage, leave it to beaver neighborhood…..The perfect life right? Only my wife at the time (now ex) also said I was middle aged. Got me to thinking I should climb the big stone but I couldn’t take the time off. Do it in a day! I trained my butt off and did the Salathe in 23 hours. The climb itself went wonderful, even the hollow flake, sans pro in the middle of the night. But the work to get there was pretty killer, especially since most of the movement training was on my garage wall in Kansas.

I think you need to be careful about where you stick your rope....

Actually, I thought they bolted the thing because they thought it was outside the wilderness area. In which case you would be ill equipped if not approached via 4x4 or atv, and for god sakes take a chainsaw to remove the offending brush and survive a cold bivvy with a real fire...

Does that stick need to be surgically removed?

By the way, dont be grabbing any pro on Everest either. Its bad style. another one.... DSL Connection on cc.com

Telemarker was honest about his ascents and french free doesnt add more fixed pro to the climb. In other words it doesnt affect any other climber but him. Having yarded my way up the NoseIAD and SalatheIAD (different days) I guess I suck because of the style. Funny thing is though, I think the guys throwing shit bags off kind of sucked. If you want to learn to climb things fast, it is probably really good practice to go out on harder things than you can climb and climb them as fast as possible. How many of you stylists have ALWAYS bailed on a climb cuz you couldnt do one move near a piece? If you have then I applaud your style. Plastic telemark boots are aid.....

Thanks for sharing. That is a cool looking wall.

The Finger of Fate Route on the Titan is very cool and pretty clean for the Fishers....At least 22 years ago it was pretty clean (in terms of loose rock). Having said that, the old bolts were only 1/4" by 1 1/2" long so be wary if there are any of those left. That rock can be manky though, a friend was juggin and there was an outward force on one of those old bolts. The bolt didnt pull but it did pull out a whole chunk of rock with the bolt! Pretty amazing actually.

You could be getting quite a deal on that used helmet, there may even be little critters inside...

as far as ratings....I doubt that the guide has been written that everyone agreed to the grades...That wirebound deal is much better than bound.

You fall in that hole and your hand are gonna freeze....

Nice job and pics. thanks for sharing. Hexes - old school, gotta dig it.

I like it....A lot more personality than another Falcon Guide....But I have only been to the place twice.