gosolo

I do what you describe sometimes. as CC said, many believe that rapping is the best eiquite to save wear on the anchors.... Also, I have tied in this way with another biner (one locker and one regular) while leading in blocks on very long routes in order to save time swiching rope ends. I took a 30 footer on that setup. Safety nazis will tell you that aint good, but then again, there are probably some things they aint going to do because it is not the safest, mountaineers approved method....

Here is wat I posted on a different site on his same debate that hopefully describes the history of QD's as I remember it. BTW, QD's can also be those BD spectra ones that arent as stiff as dogbones. OK, I will try and summarize and give you a simple history thing from my decrepit and wandering mind. Long ago in a time before sport, before trad (my god how can that be?) many of us used either slings tied of webbing (usually 1") and if not needed then we used a biner to clip directly into the piece. On bolted slab climbs we sometimes used two biners and clipped into the bolt that way. I remember tieing quick draws with about 2 feet of webbing which gave about a 6" loop. (6" is about the length of a dollar bill, not the short end for you guys that have to lie!) This was in the early 80's. When sport climbing started ramping up about mid 80's these things called quickdraws started hitting the store shelves. At first I was leary, what the hell was this piece of gear out that only served such a limited purpose? Voila, the purpose was to be able to easily clip your rope into a piece quickly and effeciently. Quickdraws do that job better than anything else. That is why most people use them. That is why even on TRAD routes they are a very nice thing to have. Necessary? Not really, but damn nice to have for that one job. Next time you are sketched out on a 5.12 trad route and your last piece is a few feet below you, go ahead and f&&& with your tripled trad slings, where the lower biner does not stay in the right place. Then, I think you'll know what we is talking about. If you are climbing moderate to easy trad routes, you dont need them. But when placing and clipping gear is really hairy, and your one hand is slippin out of a manky jam, I think you will be glad to have them. Bottom line is getting god gear and using the right tool for the job. Those tripled tingies are great until you find yourself all maked out fiddling around on a hard 5.11 or 12 trad route.

I am new to this great state, although I must say the dryshitties are not great....and I have observed from a few forays on the west side that some of you would probably excel at this. American Bushwacking Club Events I have a hard time believing some dudes do this for fun....

jayb, I better see where you are coming from. In fact, I see the dudes on tele's in the park on the pipe and I am like WTF is up with that, so I guess I relate. I think the next thing is to go through a crowded halfpipe with two ice tools swinging.... And commercialization? Check out that dude in the red coat snowshoeing. They gotto be selling something with that pic... Cobra, are you really doing stuff with artificial insemination of pigs? My dad was a vet and did it with bulls in the 1950's. Somehow, I am shocked the animal rights activists havent got involved, those female pigs dont get to pic the donors now do they?

Catbirdseat, I like tricams as much as the next guy, but fiddling with them on a sustained IC crack is for the ultra hard man... And I hate to beat a dead horse, I mean I can relate to slippage and stuff but here is what that post said alpinfox.... 1. The greatest variable in the magnitude of the force at the top runner is operator behaviour. Values can vary between 20 to 50 percent. Hand pressure and position, reaction time, position of operator and body mass have significant influences. 2. All belay devices seem to work, although the force in the top runner may vary. 3. The force in the top runner is surprisingly small (even if there is only one runner, i.e. very little system friction). It appears that the force in the top runner will rarely reach 10 kN (it did not even come close in the tests). The values fall mostly between 3 and 6 kN. This is independent of fall height (theoretical fall factor). Note again that operator behaviour has a major influence. 4. The 'static' devices such as the Grigri (there may be rope slip through the device of 2 to 5 cm, while it is 50 to 120 cm for a dynamic device) may produce twice the force on the last runner than a dynamic device. 5. The lifting of the operator may reduce the force on the top runner, possibly by as much as 10 % and even more. It is again influenced by operator behaviour. Sometimes no significant reduction could be determined. 6. Lifting of the operator beyond 30 to 40 cm has no influence on the magnitude of the force in the top runner. 7. Lifting of the operator may increase the stance load. These forces are, however, not very significant. Generally from two to three kN except for the 'static' devices, which could produce twice these values. The latter were always attached to the fixed anchor, because of injury concerns. 8. The force on the top runner increases with the mass of the operator. 9. It is highly recommended that a dummy runner is used at the belay. I dont usually climb with a grigri for multipitch trad or sport simply because it is extraneous and weighty. It does say that the impact force for a grigri is twice that as a belay device but from the results that means 3-6 kN. And does this mean good belay technique like the article infers? I got to hand it to you, if you guys can determine the force that your placements can take you are good. But hey, I am a proponent of the hip belay man, looks like that is where it is at... Most of my climbing in IC was in the 80's and fortunately, I did not have to see it being overrun and notice the skate marks...Memories of places are sometimes better left as memories. If there is more information on the topic, I like to think that I am an old dog that can still learn new tricks.

back in tha day I did a lot of climbin with old style friends at IC and throughout southern Utah. Only time I had a cam skate on me was when I knew it was possible cuz of the placement in Zions on Navaho sandstone. Indian Creek is pretty bomber rock. However, it is possible that a cam that is too small may skip and not bite. But lets say the belayer had a locked off ATC when the dude fell? Are you guys really tryin to say that the impact force of the grigri is higher than a locked off ATC? Personally, if I am worried about gear failing enough to warrant not using a grigri, I am then going to climb under the premise that the leader must not fall...On that climb it woulda been aid...

so are you both russian? oleg and ivan? My gf is from st petersburg.... gros vedanya. did I get that right?

Nonsense, poopy-pants! No one can say for sure, but the GriGri could have made the difference between an ordinary leader fall and decking. The Catbird might be a poopy-pants, but he might also be right in this case. I don't let my belayer's use a gri-gri when I'm climbing gear routes. I hate to bring up an off the couch ANALyses but perhaps the pro was not adequate for the crack? LIke I mean, if he stuck the right size in the right crack like the cam manufacturer (and all of those fine how to climb and look stylish while doin it books) said, perhaps the grigri would be a non issue? I kinda think that might have sumtin to do with it... I really think that his hairdo is at fault though....Glad he is OK, but damn, let your hair down man...I wonder if he knew his pic was going to be posted all over the net?

yep cool ropehook....Maybe for walls you can make it stiff enough to sit on! Mkae those hanging beelays more, uh comfy.. YEEHAW!

You dudes are north face hardmen, but that one dude in blue, is he really sans gloves? He Bad...

I started my attempts at “telemarking” almost 30 years ago. I had narrow skiis, tennis shoe like support and a no brain no pain like attitude of teenage youth. It took significant effort to telemark with this gear but it did pay off. Sometimes we even went for some huge air on those boards and sometimes we broke a few pairs of skiis. It was all in fun. My buddies were throwing helicopters back in the early 80’s on that gear and I can assure you that it was not as supportive as todays XC gear for either skating or classic. One of the coolest races I have ever seen was in the mid to late 70’s on XC gear. I don’t remember seeing metal edges then but there may have been the odd skinny ski that had that advancement. The race was from the top of the tram at Snowbird to the bottom. 3000 feet of black diamond vertical on equipment better suited for a groomed horizontal. Now if that was not the wildest free for all thing, damn that was awesome! Cruising down Regulator Johnsonson, through the bumps the nordies threw themselves. It was truly a sight to see. Great spectacular crashes and broken equipment. When plastic boots came out, I was thinking that telemarking was evolving towards alpine skiing. WTF was up with that? Some may think sport climbing and gyms opened up climbing to the public, and in the same way advanced XC gear was opening up telemarking to anyone with some cash and a little bit of ability. With the boards and boots of today, telemarking lost the formerly big learning curve. I am guilty of skiing Mt Bachelor with my skating gear and getting air over about 10 years ago. It reminded me a bit of the challenges of the early equipment. I am also guilty of skiing all kinds of black diamond runs on tele gear with a kid on my back, my son’s intro to skiing. Of course, for his safety I sported the plastic boots and fat skiis to make things easy. IMO this dude going for air and such on his skinny skiis is just playin around. Because of the difficulty and pain of crashing I doubt it will be all that popular but, evolution does not always go the way one might think. Its too bad it plays with some peoples idea of what skiing should be. Just as telemarking today has evolved into something I could not imagine 30 years ago, I bet if there were any of the original inventors around they certainly would have some mixed feelings. The fact is, when you youngsters grow old, there is bound to be a whole bunch of activities for you to shake your head at. Just as some people may think that the best climbers are those that can climb with the least amount of technical gear (think free solo), the best skiers may be the ones who can crank better than you on the least amount of techo gadgets….But damn, that plays with our gearheadedness, a quality that is innate to every climber and skier….. I still think plastic tele boots are aid, but mine are not for sale. BTW, rad snowshoe shot.

Good Yob! That looks really cool. So you did come up the Twin Lakes Trail? Thanks for sharing.

Hi, you can choose this, me in a BAT tent on Mt Hooker in the Wind Rivers...... or this, retired's double on zodiac.....How much does a fine hotel bed cost and how much is it worth? If you are thinking of the Nose, you dont need a ledge, for emergency use a hammock is fine there. If the weather goes to shit it is easy to bail from up high on that route. Most parties dont even take a hammock, depends on crowds I guess...

dont take any spray personally about size of rack. You are craggin. it is SMART to take gear. Just throw on what you think you need outa your stuff. bragin about the small rack you take craggin seems to imply a biological defeciency of some sort. BTW, the coulee is not a destination area. It s a desperation area. there is a difference.

Lower johhny Creek CG. Woke up on 9/19 and found that my backpack with gear was missing. I was sleepin in the truck and it was near the rear bumper. North Face red and purple Ice sac? sometin like that a big sucker they made like 6 yr ago. inside: New Metolius Fusion harness, Old metolius Big Rig. Newer ATC's and Lockers (auto lockers HMS type) La Sportive Fusion, Scarpa Dominator in size 10.5 La Sportiva Mythos ladies about size 7. Rack: FUCK several HB offset. old ones New set of Metolius Stoppers Tricams first few sizes CAMS Mix of Metolius, WC and some Brand New Camalots, doubles up to Camalot size 4 I think. Biners, some old and new, petzl Spirit, BD the small new ones dynatron? anod green. the old ones may be Chouinard Lt D's stamped wi GO. about 15 draws. mix of stuff. SO this year I decide to buy a bunch of new cam as the old WC from he early 80s are gettin worn...... I been lurkin to see where this stuff might show up... Also, two helmets. WTF is someone goin to do with this shit? Please PM me if you see the initials GO on an old biner or sometin........ I can go back to usin my old rack now. At least I trust it....But those damn HB's, now that pisses me off....

bob (and I dont know him) may not appreciate when he learned to aid climb. F%%%er may have been born climbin out of the womb (his por mama). But I liked your report and pics. I will PM you info I have on the Nose. Good Luck.

obviously based upon the "litter" left on top, you dudes aint playin with a full deck. Now, your detractors, are forced to take a full deck to the top, one more item to carry, aside from actually gettin of their ass and climbin...You coulda left a full deck man.... BTW, nice send. Ever climb in the Black? Just wonderin if choss quality is similar...

dude...impressive send in the bugs...but do u ever free climb?

sounds like there are some deals better left for the next guy...

DC, not sure what your point is. Here is mine. Superpin had a bolt placed. I have done that route a couple times. IMO it is too bad that there was a bolt added. Now every single climber has to experience it differently than the FA. Would I have done it without the bolt? Probably, but that is not the point. It is still a dangerous climb. Should it be bolted more? It would be such a premier bolt route to such a coool summit. If it were well protected bolt route then it would loose about 99% of the challenge and appeal. My point is that all across the country certain individuals are wanting to retrobolt stuff done many years ago. I think that is BS. It does not matter that it was done before sport climbers or after. The point is the same. Leave it alone. You want some more routes that have been altered pre-sport? Dorsal Fin III 5.10d FA G. Lowe 1965 - a very proud lead for those times - bolts added in the 70's Athletes Feat 5.11? FA by Royal Robbins - Damn. Too bad someone bolted the sucker and made it easier. The point is that if you climb for 30 years, it is still a snapshot in time. How can even experienced climbers pretend to know the boldnmess of future climbers? By bolting routes done years ago because a person is too afraid to sack up, you are changing the future. Why? What is wrong with saying, "Damn, Not Today." Why dont we just TR the thing. Nearly 10 pages......

YEAR 2051, 10,000th edition of CLIMBING Magazine Ropegun Malone set out to climb all of the OLD BOLD Lines of previous generations but was thwarted in his attempt. There had been so many bolts added to bold routes that he could not determine which were placed by the first ascent team. "None of these routes are bold. It seems as though previous generations decided that they needed additional bolts to make them safe. There is virutally no way for this generation of climbers to even compare ourseelves with the climbers of the past because they bolted anything that was scary. I am very dispointed that I cannot experience the route the same way as the first ascent team did. I guess it was the selfishness of previous generations that robbed me from my quest." Would additional bolts to a Peter Croft Line really be doin the community a favor? Done 20 years ago but todays hardmen are forced to add bolts instead of sack up? Yeah, the sport of rockclimbing is progressing, it is progressing into a sanitized sport where the use of 50 year old technology replaces risk...I dont climb 5.12 regularly nor as good as I used to. However, if todays STD is 5.15a then why add bolts to 5.12? Especially when you said you can stick clip it?

JayB, I do not have a problem with sport climibing. I have put up about 30 sport rotues in Utah, Arkansas and Missouri. I also, do not feel that there is any wholesale retrobolting thing going on. This thread started by someone asking the question about adding bolts to an existing route. One caan only surmise that someone asking such questions is either new to the sport, or trolling. I assumed they were new to the sport. To me, ground up rock climbing is an art that is being lost. My comments are here mainly to support the preservation of runout or difficult to protect routes. This question of retrobolting goes on all the time all over the country. There does appear to be more climbers that say safety is paramount even to the point of saying that a route is like a trail, why not perform some trail maintenance? Anyway, I like JH's first response the best, "ask yourself why you want to add bolts to a route." I only really feel the need to try and let new climbers know that the history of the spoort once suported ground up ascents. To me, if all crag routes are made safe, then I really feel that Climbing will have evolved to a sanitized sport for the massses and the real heart of climbing as it was when I started in the 70's will have been lost. Hell, I like cliping bolts too. But Nothing can replace being on the sharp end on a FA or even on a route like Superpin in the Needles. Each of us have our goals and ideals. Preserving rotues done in a bold manner helps preserve one of my ideals. I respect those routes and am merely expressing that here to the guy who was asking about adding bolts to a route. Have fun anad be safe and dont add bolts to an existing route

Matt I couldn't agree more. Perhaps the biggest problem with the whole (I believe mythical) "70's Ethos" is that in practice it becomes nothign more than a self-serving method of controling others whose actions you might not like. As with most controling myths it cannot be rationally argued. It gives those judging others a platform to feel superior and a justification of appealing to a greater authority. The myth contains the seeds of its own destruction. Matt and DC. I happen to agree with many of the things youu guys say; however, I do really disagree here. First, DC calling this a myth. Wasant a myth for me dude. Maybe you only dreamed about putting routes up in good style but some of us (as evidenced by JH) haave actually succeeded at this stuff. I find your comments to be inferring that we thought those ethics up in our dreams and I caannot disagree m ore strongly. And Matt as far as vision goes. What better vision is there than minimum impact and adventure? In Big Cottonwood Canyon, Utah in the early 80's I put up about 30 new routes at a time when there were only 30 routes in that canyon. All were ground up without preinspection. I put in 1 bolt in thosee 30 routes. I think that was too bad but at least on those routes the rock is there as my partnerrs and I left it, in a natural state. It is not a myth, and it most certainly is the best style because manmade junk is not left behind. The original topic was retrobolting. Some want to retro thosee routes I put up, fortunately, the community agrees not too. At what point in the future will they decide oh F%%% it and bolt them? To me that will be a sad day for all climbers and will be a sign that climbing is no longer the sport I practiced....

JayB, perhaps I should have made myself more clear. Not all climbers think it is their right to bolt routes for safety, but some do. My position is that risk is a relative thing and is inherent in all climbing. I have seen these debates all across Utah and in Cali and I responded so sharply because I am tired of it. My position is that if a dangerous climb is too dangerous for a climber, no matter what grade, then that climber does not have the requisite skill base for that route. What I am saying is that the ability to climb runout rock is as impoortant to me as the ability to climb 5.whatever is too someone else. Retrobolting a route to make it safer changes the difficulty of the route. It may not be reflected in the rating. Many climbers disagree with that, to them the difficulty of the moves is when there is adequate pro. My position is that there are more climbers expecting a danger free experience. What I find unacceptable is: climbers bolting next to cracks that take pro, climbers retrobolting a route that has been done many times, and climbers who think that it is their godgiven right to climb any piece of rock. I believe that my position is also similar to most other climbers. My position is that if the true standard of rock climbing is 5.15a then why the hell can't people sack up and climb a 5.10, 5.11 whatever...without additional hardware? To me the person that adds bolts to a classic route because they fear a fall is every bit as bad as someone who chips a hold. They are performing the same deed: dropping the climb to their level. Rock is a finite resource, use it wisely. BTW, after about 30 years of climbing and having done some of the things I have done, I do not need anyone else to help me with my ethics opinions. They have been formulated in about 18 States with about 100+ new routes, both sport and ground up. Not once did I say sport climbing was for pussies, you somehow perceived that. The strange thing about many of these debates is that often they are centered around a route that wass done 20 plus years ago. And we cannot accept them the way they are? JH said that all climbers are advancing on the shoulders of others. I believe that is true. I also think it is important to acknowledge that by leaving them the way they are. People get real pissed when someone chops bolts. To me, that is an act that says the chopper does not respect that climb. By adding bolts the bolter is doing the same thing as the chopper. The rock suffers and the climmbing community suffers. Some are just not smart enough to understand that yet....