Dane

"Currently a limited number of guide services do have permits for the area... From the Leavenworth rock area to Stuart and the Enchantments. It is unlikely that this will change." It is unlikely to change because it is part of the multiple use deemed appropriate by the USFS which is a good thing for the most part. A limited numer of services may well indeed have permits to work the area. I never suspected any guide or instructor would have a copy of the company permit in their back pocket. How many of you guys working now have actually seen the permits you work under? If you want to find out who actually is working on a permit and who is not their is nothing that says you can't ask as a working guide (not good for your job security if the answer is bad) or as a novice climber using the area. Hell, nothing special about being a guide other than the typical headaches and keeping folks from killing themselves and others. There are any number of very capable programs ran safely and professionally in every aspect but the permit. No one in their right might draws attention to themselves when they are outside the rules. With or without a permit my programs never changed. Never thought anyone guiding currently or the companies that support them would like having to show their permit on demand ( like that is a big deal ) or any of these suggestions. Dane Burns

Here is a thought to entertain. How many of you have run across commercial programs in the Leavenworth or Vantage area? (You know, big groups hogging one area) I only climb mid week these days and I have run into what in retrospect is a good number myself...four at least just in the areas close to the road in Leavenworth last summer. Think any of them have use permits from the DNR, USFS to use the public lands? I doubt it having been in that industry for a while. You want to slow down the permit process for guiding in Leavenworth start reporting who and where commercial programs are working now. Ask to see a permit (which will cause the guides, the clients and eventually the company some serious consternation). All kinds of programs out there over using the resources available at your expense while they make money from it. I have poached clients in the Tietons, Rainier, and on McKinley as well as the Stuart Range and the Canadian Rockies. Like Dru I have avoided the permit system in the past and also been escorted by armed USFS staff from the base of SCW Not actions I would suggest repeating but I am not the first or the last. In many ways it is part of the climbing culture to avoid the rules. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at any well worn climbing area and see the over use. Commerial programs always generate more use, be it on the river or on the rock. Good commercial programs lower the inpact of their groups and help clients enjoy what is available but at the public expense.

"Leavenworth Alpine Guides used to teach classes in Icicle Canyon and I could be wrong but I think they also took clients up Mount Stuart and to the Enchantments without any noticeable problem that I am aware of." I was part of LAG and did in fact take folks into Stuart and the Enchantments as well as the Icicle in the late '70s and early '80s. Things are different now. Bottom line is too many people, too many climbers. There was no quota system in place then because there really wasn't a need to limit the access to the Enchantments. A need to limit the quality of the people that had access yes, but the damage that was done in the '70s was not over use but abuse. Later I spent a several years climbing at Vantage and never once saw a climber there I didn't introduce to the area. The place has been trashed by climbers once it became known. And not by the guys who first started climbing there...but by their never ending line of friends. Guides make an area more accessable in many ways. I would disagree that Stuart and the enchantments needs a guide concession. As much as I don't like the permit system, too many people in the area are the problem. If you want to lower the impact on the area a guide service is not the way to do it. Guide services are there to make money....I know for some that is hard to believe. The way you make money is by bringing in more clients. Take a look at the numbers on the cow path and RMI. Do you think that over use in the last 30 years hasn't effected the experience on DC or the West Butt? The USFS will defend and help the guide service in everyway they can to reach that economic goal, including giving short shrift to the general climbing community with permit allotments. You can still climb almost any were in the Leavenworth area mid week and not see anyone. Just as you could years ago on the weekends. Plug commercial programs into that mix more than they are now.....and there are commecercial operations working there now......and that too will end quickly. In the end you'll see commencial guide operations in the area. Simple reason, there is serious money to be made, if fits the multiple use definition of the USFS and my quess is most of you that have a strong opinion will still be saying "fuck the USFS" instead of doing something a little more useful.

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On the upside REI has their powershield 4 way, "One" jacket on sale for $139. Just picked one up today and a seems a fair piece. Clipit Delica can be had on-line for $40 or less I suspect. Trask doing this 3 to 5 priceless Sorry about your stuff getting ripped Bronco. It really sucks!

A number of years ago Buhler and I did Castle and hiked up to Midnight one day during the week. Got back to the car to find his Rabbit's window bashed in, our gear stolen, his North Cape pile jacket and our wallets gone. Both of us were very pissed. Couple of days later we spotted three guys top roping near Z crack and the .9 on the upper rock. One of the idiots was wearing Buhlers bright red NC jacket and my glasses. MFs. Called the local county guys later as an after thought. Deputy wondered why we didn't just kick some ass and then call. Ya, I know how that would have went down even then. Pop a cap Trask and you'll rightfully go to jail, bonehead. Best part was locking up the dude who was belaying with Carlo's jacket and my Varnets. Then retrieving their rope and cutting it into a couple of pieces for them with a rock. Deputy was right, that was more years ago than I care to count, but we should have kicked the shit out of them and skipped the phone call. Buhler was the "peaceful" type. I'd say screw the "no questions" asked. How about $1000 reward to the guy who publically IDs the POS so you (how about the entire community) can do a little pay back. You think you were the first or the last?

"I didn't say you were old, just older than me" OK. I give this time. Hell, at my age I am just happy to wake up every morning. I'm off to Leavenworth this morning...anyone else?

Buffy sez: "When we were packing up to leave some older guy showed up and free soloed the whole thing." That is twice in one week on this BB someone has called me old...... Fred is OLD! Hell, even Yoder and Nelson are old....I am not old . Hair color has nothing to do with age. Even red heads turn grey at some point. Now the real real question is how does Cocaine Crack turn into a 5.7? Not off the road, but Fault, Catapult, Winter Solstice is a combination that is one of my favorites also. Stack on that South Ramp at Midnight or the Flame & Roller Coaster Chimney combo and you have a couple of hours and just a bit more than 5.8.

Hey Josh. Saw the mention of the track stuff in one of your posts. I thought you might appreciate the car and know SIR. As you already know, they are both big fun.

"You guys are ungrateful." Oh, please! I pay my taxes and they hired on to "protect and serve". Now about that driving thing? If I had only known sooner how much fun it could also be just to get to the climbs

"Ya sorry, I missed that, it should be "LOOOOOOOOOOOOSERS !" "My question is how anybody who is unemployed can be posting on here during the day at all.... go out and climb. Let the rest of us poor bastards with office jobs do the spraying. " Finally something I can agree with But this, "old fart" now we are really talking some smack

Of all the silly ass things I have seen on this board.... "Just keep in mind, that there will more than likely be inexperienced (fill in the blank) out there that will be observing your (fill in the blank), and thinking to themselves: "Hey, that guy is (cool, stupid or GAWD or fill in the blank as you see fit), I guess that means that it's ok to do so...... I'll just follow his lead." "My point is this......." Since few of you have a point or any common sense. I'll make my point. What might be safe and sane for me may not be for you. I might have a better car, better skills or just more money and can afford a ticket at 200 mph (ya I wish). Being irresponsible is being irresponsible. The traffic laws are there for a reason, that doesn't make them safe or sane at any given moment in time. Climbing use to be about the individual and taking responsiblity on yourself and making your own decisions and being able to live with them. Then came the Internet where few even remember how to spell your own name. Get a ticket for 75 in a 50 and you pay it or not, but for heaven's sake let's not whine Take a whipper and deck 'cause your pro pulled, (bolt, TCU or Camalot) take some responsibility for your actions....you choose the climb and you FAILED. Get over it. Some piss ant wants to duplicate the feat you aren't responsible for their actions. The peole who supply your gear (placed, bought or stolen) are not responsible to hold your hand while taking a leak or tying in. I am now convinced most who post in the Internet don't climb, never will past a gym, go to church and would never, ever, speed, get drunk or committ petty larceny, or abnormal sex let alone know what to do if they forgot their harness or the rope. Ya sorry, I missed that, it should be LOOOOOOOOOOOOSERS !

"ALL I CAN SAY IS THAT CARS ARE NOT TOYS" And this from an insurance adjuster.......sheesh. Climbing aint fun either, shit happens and people die or you end up cutting off your own arm. Get a life. A good one involves risk, education, good judgement and responsibility for your actions. I'll remind Twight that there are no experts the next time we talk and of the friends who have died from mistakes. I'll remind myself the next 1:20 minute drive from the HWY 2 Junction to Issaquah. Maybe that was why the WSP was hanging on 97 and waiting. That is a go straight to jail ticket BTW. Life's a risk. Prepare for it. Take some driver's ed, buy a better car and a Valentine radar detector. Cheap insurance It is a fact, WSP are traffic cops. It is their job afterall. Most of them are beating down the door to SI I suspect. A lecture about driving responsibly and climbing doesn't really go hand in hand do they? Some how the comparison is loss on me.

Dude it is only your feet! I have broken both ankels pretty badly....much worse to recover from. Broken metatarsals more time than I can count. Between 39 and now 49 breaking them has gotten a lot more painful and it takes longer to heal. Enough so that I decided last year I was NEVER going to break one again. Breaking metatarsals had become a part of my job description. Just about killed my feet and my climbing. I use to wear 9.5 rock shoes and loved them on my size 11.5 foot. Now the only way I get into a shoe is with a pair of sox and it has to be big and comfy. I am using one of the 5.10s but can't remember the name of the model right off, "old guy shoes" would be a good description with a heel pad. My feet are getting better now with every season. I can wear my sport shoes for short periods but not more than a few pitches as of yet. I figure late this fall I will be game again for more. Give it time and let the pain tell you what you can and can not do. That is the best control of your rehab IMO. When it hurts, stop doing it. Advil is a good catch all. The sooner you get back on your feet without doing them any additional damage the faster you'll be climbing again at your past level. Good luck! Damn hard to climb hard in shoes that roll off your feet....but better than not climbing at all

"Tower Rock is above a kids camp along the Cispus River" Ya, same place. So, anyone climbed there?

Anybody ever climb there? Drove by in a hurry today but looked like it might be worth going back and taking another look.

"Also In the fall, Chimney Rock is an excelent place to climb trad alpine cracks." Road opens typically by early June. Elevation is around 7000 feet. The guide is by Green called, "Idaho Rock" IIRC. Vantage became the hang out for many of the WSU guys once they found out about it. Chimney rock is by far the best trad climbing in the area, but Laclede has a few plumbs as do the other areas around Sandpoint. The new sport climbs are worth a visit too. Even Dishman and Minihaha will give you a good lead or two if you have the interest. But for some of the best crack climbing in the NW.......as good as any granite in California, Chimney Rock is a very cool place. Better than Midnight rock IMO. Shorter than some at Index but with pitches that rival anything there into the mid .11s and on better rock. 2 to 3 pitches on the west side and 4 on the east and NE side. "don't forget to check out the alpine faces/routes of Harrison Peak, Gunsight, and Roman Nose." Unless you are into a nice walk neither Gunsight or Roman Nose are worth the effort for the climb. Rock isn't all that great. Although shorter, the S. Face of Harrison should be on everyone's list.

The info center is saying Monday, the 14th, at 11am.

The bolts I saw left of the 2 main crack pitches of Outerspace late last fall I assumed were "new" anchors to the face climbs on the upper part of the Shield. Looked to me to be 50 meters apart and none of the typical nylon cabage around them to mark a rap anchor. New bolts occasionally strung out between them too for the weak of heart. If anyone does rap off and uses those pieces I would like to hear the end comments.

Click the week date signs and take a look at the east face of Liberty bell last week....looks like it is still winter up there to me. Also looks like the walk wouldn't be bad if you did a little hitching with the DOT or avalanche control crew. Now's the time obsydian.

Ya, I found the same conditions in '78, '80, '82, '85, '90 during May, guess I should try another month Hated the sled every time (and still do) and left my skiis.......as did most, at 11K. If you go to ski, the best turns are below 11 anyway on the glacier. If you are there to climb, the walk between 11 and 145 is beautiful. I have never seen Motorcycle Hill as a great place to make turns, too many big holes lurking around and nothing but wind pack. YMMV

You couldn't pay me to take skis to 14K. Leave them at 11K. Make a carry to windy corner from 11K first if no one in the party has been on the mountain. I suspect you'll all chuck the skiis once you screwed around on that slog once. I also would think about skinny skis and the appropriate light weight shoe and skins to go with them to 11...lighter warmer and much much EASIER getting to 11K from the strip even with a sled. BTDT. In icy conditions no one sane skiis around windy corner anyway. One pair of plastic boots and one pair of liners is more than enough. You are asking for a really miserable time hauling all the shit you ar thinking about including the AT gear. The only front pointing if you're forced by hard conditions, is just out of 14 on fixed lines and I have yet to see anyone front point the headwall that had any sense. You want FLEXABLE ankles and warm boots. Not seen a pair of ATs that are as flexable as I would want them...it is a looooooooong walk in crampons from 11K up and back. Nothing you'll want to do in ski boots, IMO.

7 Alaskan trips, single leather with super gaiters, leather doubles with super gaiters and 5 trips in plastic....all Koflacks with and without super gaiters or overboots. I suggest plastic and something to put over the boots besides normal gaiters above 17K. Normal liners worked fine but get damp. Later trips were done with custom made foam liners. Lots of good liners available now already in the boots. I used VBLs and a thin sox against the skin and a med weight wool over the vbl. Worked well in really harsh conditions. And were easy to dry in the bag every night. Save some guessing and make a couple of trips to Canada in winter and test your system there. Suffer penalities and beer are better. I would look at the newest Vasque dbls if I were going again. Tackle knows as much as anyone what is needed in an technical Alaskan boot and he helped design them. If they fit I'd buy them and a good hat

Your body protects the core temp first. Windchill saps body heat from the entire sysytem. High chill will effect your feet and hands first because as the body core lowers less blood supply goes to the hand and feet. Same old adage...need to add or subtract heat, do so at the head and neck. That will protect or drain the body core temp. Body core temp in turn decides what the hands and feet get for blood supply, ie heat. Your level of fitness, and how you hydrate and eat will have a great deal to do with how warm you and your feet stay. Twight did a great job of addressing all this in his manual.