Dane

"I haven't been violated yet, so I don't have the motivation to get involved" And that is exactly why it continues.

If anyone is actually serious. You can contact me via private email or on the phone and we can set of a group meet in person and go through the details. Easy enough to do and be successful but not what you want discuss in an open forum. It is all legal and safe. Safe being a relative term in serious alpine climbing. I need half dozen guys or gals with a little grit to pull it off. I have the other connections to hook up the rest. Come on be a hero Be nice if it is a small goup who already know each other from CC.com. One guy can't easily do it by himself and it will take a few days I suspect. BUT the problem, short term anyway, can be easily solved. rdburns@cnw.com or 425 391 3202

They let girls climb by themselves?! Amazing, who would have though......

Anyone else care to solve the problem, send me an email. Half dozen or so good guys I supect could put an end to one groups rip off's over a couple of weekends. It's raining what else fun we got to do Caveman? Trask? rdburns.cnw.com

You'll not need chains once inside Canada i suspect. Roads are very good and serious snow fall in the Rockies is seldom. Do the Hostel thing. A search on line will show you much as will the guide book. Nice to have a warm place to sleep when the highs come in. Mid week most of the climbs aren't going to be too busy. Climb Cascade and Professors staying in Canmore but then head north for the hostels and the Weeping wall/ Polar Circus area and more solitude. Getting a beater car across the border will take cash in your pocket and a smile I suspect. Good luck! The climbing is worth the effort.

I agree. Climbed some of what is mentioned in the book. Driven out to look at more and have often been dissappointed. Even living on the west side of the state it is still only one day's drive to Banff. If I want water ice I am going north and not wasting my time wishing the ice was good. Even the best ice conditions in Washington state (past or present) are some of the worse you'll ever see in Canada.

Nice climb guys! Good job this time of year. Can anyone give me the differences between the two gullies? The West one looked really nice. What is the deal on the other? Easier, harder, shorter, longer or just the same pretty much?

On Spokane's west side, Indian Creek canyon 30'. North of CDA 15 minutes, Chilco 30/50', as mentioned and worth the visit when is up for anyone locally. Couple of more hours north, Copper Creek, maybe 130', take a right just a few yards from the Eastport Canadian crossing. The Wizard collection of drips (when it's in) north side of the highway and easily visable, near Clark Fork. 2 decent pitches are possible, may be 200', but less I suspect. Those pretty much cover Northern Idaho water ice unless some one hangs a water hose. Gibraltar Wall (decent 3 and 4 ice) is near Canal Flats BC is the best and most consistant "real" ice to Spokane. Better yet unless things are really, really IN at Banks Lake make the extra drive to Banff and get some climbing done. Makes a long weekend from Spokane but worth every minute since it will be a trade of drive time (for actual ice) or (a 2 hour drive and a slog for something that might or might not be up). Past that, what Steve said already.

Pretty funny really. Everyone dies. That is fact is hard to swallow. At some point I realised I too was mortal. Took me longer than my father and most of my friends. No clue as to why. I think it is a climber thing. We can do things most can't dream about. One thing I learned early on. No clue what it feels like to be dead. I do know the ones left behind suffer. Our society has a bad habit of condemming anyone who chooses how they live and how they choose to die. Die soloing and you are generally considered an idiot in my book......and I have soloed a lot. Die in the mountains and I figured you made a dumb mistake. (generally thinking, shit, that could just as easily have been me) But I also figure you are gonna die (given enough time) so why not have a little fun while you are around? No one would be more pissed than myslf for greasing off some crack 100 ft up. But I would be even more pissed getting wacked by a head-on on 405. A lot of climbers are troubled enough to take their own life. Never occured to me. Too much fun looking around the next corner. "Climbng is hard, but it is easier than growing up."

Fair enough Dru. What I could have said is, "you aren't going to be bold long it you don't rethink what you are doing moment to moment." For the correct context use "young" as as a measure of experience, not age. Age has almost nothing to do with the level of education on risk management in climbing, climbing experience does. Which goes along with the next sentence after your previous quote. "Experience teaches you that boldness is often survived through luck and not skill." But back to this thread's subject matter. If I assume a level of risk I am comfortable with I see little adventure coming from the undertaking. Adventure: an exciting and dangerious undertaking. Semantics again. If I have seemingly limited and acceptable risk, where is the challenge past the technical? I know what I am capable of technically. To Joe Snow, soloing Stuart in my previous post, the climb should have been little more than a nice afternoon work out. In stead ghe dies because you cna't limit all the risk. I would think that the danger and risks involved is what draws us all to the sport. You define the level of risk you are willing to under take everytime you leave the house. It changes for every climb we do. I am also willing to accept any additional risk that pops up everytime i go out. How I will deal with "accidental assumption of risk" changes with every incident.

Guys I am not disagreeing, just a different view point. I have turned around on climbs for reasons ranging from the hair standing on the back of my neck to what I wanted for dinner. Only young bold climbers fail to rethink the situation on every climb, moment to moment, or they don't live to be old climbers..... Not a lot of bold, old climbers. Experience teaches you that boldness is often survived through luck and not skill. I think the sematics are at issue, what may be a perfect safe situation for you (extreme and experienced alpinist) may be suicide for me (5.6 top rope gumbie). The more you know about the dangers you expose yourself to and the level of your personal experience, the less risk you are required to assume via neglect, accidents or even GOD's will. Should you be willing to rethink your decisions? Absofuckinglutly. But the best climbs (certainly my best climbs) are the ones where the risk zoomed past what I was originally intending. I found myself living through a level of risk that I would have never bought if I had known the level of commitment it would take to succeed initially. Yes there were always places to turn around. Some bypassed intentionally others just sailed past unseen. No one likes to hear it but climbing is actually a dangerious past time. I use to try to convince my mother otherwise. But it really is. You can die any time you decide to partake, rope or unroped in a zillion different ways. Not bringing a jacket can be a start. Having a bad hair day can be just as bad as deciding to take up solo first ascents. Not recognising that dying is part of the sport and the risk you assume everytime you go out is deceiving yourself IMO. Even for a 5.6 gumby Not trying to rain on anyone's fun. I still solo stuff, but no longer at the upper level of what I can lead. The house payment, the college funds all weigh me down. But I am more aware of the ramifications if I screw up. Takes some of the fun out of it if you have to spend too much time weighing the risks. Yoda was good for that answer, "do or do not, there is no try"

Are you sure of that? Any accident could be defined as "oversight". Depends on the skills, experience, mindset, or degree of luck the individual is blessed with. That was my point, there are very few real "accidents". Call "chance" the hand of GOD. It is also #3 in the definition from Webster's. The first two are the general rule for an accident. Accident: an unintented happening, a mishap, a chance. For example, freak rock falls generally aren't. They are generally predated by heavy rains, free/thaw, wind or any number of other reasons. What may be unintended on your part, such as a belay failure, generally means you didn't set up the belay correctly. Every time you climb you take the risk of the belay not being set up correctly for any number of reasons. Getting hit by lighting generally means you were climbing where you shouldn't have been at that moment. Any time you set off to climb "you unwitting assume" risks than you can not fully gauge. Doesn't matter if you have done the climb a dozen times or never done the climb. That is what a guide book does, lower the risk by giving you some knowledge of what you'll run into, as will a weather report. But why would you ever think that you shouldn't "unwitting assume more risk than one had originally bargained "? Be a boring life if everything was cookie cutter clean on the level of risk assumed.

Joe Snow has climbed the north ridge a dozen times. Regularly solos 5.12 and has lead every trad .13 route in NA. Runs a sub 4 minute mile in Colo Springs every month of the year. Joe decides to solo the NR of Stuart on a cool day in late Sept. Weather conditions are perfect. Takes every item he needs including the gear that will allow him to survive a few nights out. (which aint much BTW) While hanging the rope at the top of the rappel a big rocks falls for the summit area and drives Joe's helmet to his belly button. Shit happens. Dude, climbing is the assumption of risk. The harder, higher, lighter you climb the more you accept. There is no one that cuts it to zero, not the the guy doing a 5.0 boulder or the best soloist in the world. Shit happens...driving, climbing or getting out of the shower. Part of climbing or other endeavors like skiing fast is, accidental assumption of risk. Key is how prepared are you to handle the accident Tyrone is always there and waiting for you to falter. Part of the risk is not being able to handle the risk at all, like a helmet driven to your belly button. Helps to know the rules of what you are risking.

Leavenwork: Air Roof (a little thin but there is a hand or two mixed in Easter overhang ( a little wide but a hand or two also) Corner Crack Hyperspace (the upper twin crack are perfect) Catapult (a favorite hand crack) Start in the left hand cracks at the base for the Burgner Stanley on Prusik. Index: Thin fingers Davis Holland (parts of) Gonzilla/Slow Children (parts of) Vantage: Sex Party Minni: Strawberry Jam Don Q. Chimney Rock in the Idaho Selkirks: (the best list "locally" outside Squamish) Illusions-Free Friends Yahoody Grey Matter Greystoke Eye of the Tiger (and more)

Idaho, Washinton or Montana?

Dishman Rocks, Cliffs of Sharron, LaClede near Sandpoint, ID, and Chimney Rock and the Selkirks out of Sandpoint can give you some of the best short crag climbing in WA State. Vantage has some decent climbing but nothing in comparison to the variety of what is closer to Spokane. While Chimney Rock is a decent walk and a fair drive, with no top ropes, you would be hard pressed to find better alpine granite. Takes very little to hang a top rope @ Dishman or Minni. A few dbl size slings will easy do it. Most have multiple bolt anchors on the top which you and your dog can easy walk to at either area. Both areas are more than worth the effort. Try Minni first as the routes are generally easier and more varied. Good stuff for beginners can easily be set up. If that gets boring drive 15 minutes across the valley and try Dishman.

Chalk..the powdered laxative for the constipated mind.

"they didn't catch on that quick " Let's not attempt to rewrite history after reading the current Wild Country catalog The reason they got hauled around in a "black bag" was because the use of Friends allowed any number of difficult cracks to be climbed that were not going to go free without fixed pins, which no one was excited about. And some clearly wouldn't allow. Things were pretty competitive in the Valley during the '70s. Jardine and his mates knew what they had. Besides the business side of having one of the big advances to free climbing in there hands and the finacial sucess it might bring, there were climbs to be done! Fire's were almost as much a leap forward for free climbing but harder to hide. But here is question for you? Pat Timson was leading hard face climbs in funky shoes, Washboards @ .10c in '71, and Timson's Face @ 5.10d in '76. Then Timson flashs (by the guide book account) Super Crack @ .12c in 1980. All climbs well above the grades being done by even the typical hardmen of the day. Gotta wonder if he bothered with using "friends" on Super crack. Anyone actually know the story behind that climb? Gotta be a good one!

Knowing Mitch about the time he first started climbing Matt, I can vouch for his age When I met Mitch we still considered any one younger than us a "kid". No one had heard the word retro or trad related to climbing yet. Times change, my sense of humor hasn't. I bought my first friends from Roland Paulick of RP fame in Camp 4 of '79. He was Jardine's "sales manager" in the valley that fall. The were outragious @ $15 a piece....I bought one of each first time around(all 4 of them). And dbls of the 1s and 2s by the end of the week. You couldn't buy them in any store we'd been in yet. But you are right they had been "around" and available for over a year. Both the RPs and the smaller freinds really opened up the posibilities of decent protection on thin cracks for me. Things like Air Roof, ROTC, Thin Fingers, Jihad, Lingerie, Yahoody, Clean crack, Serenity Crack were harder (or unhealthy) on the typical nuts available. Last I hear Mitch could still take decent care of himself for an old guy I just read the beginning of this thread for the first time. You guys crack me up! Best laugh I have had in some time. I was just pitching Mitch some shit but whoooooooaaaaaa some of you guys are delusional ! If you haven't lead, Timson's on Givlers, WF Direct on Grand Central or Slender thread and Easter O. on Midnight, Zebra Zion in Smith then you really can't say you lead 5.10 in the NW let alone run anything out @5.8 or 9. Clipping aint real climbing. Please don't relate the typical, , to an actual, honest to GOD rock climb, it is only embrassing.

"When I first climbed it before cams it was 5.9." Nice Mitch, but you aren't old enough to have climbed it before cams........you may have been alive and not using them, but the cams were available when you started climbing, unless there are two Mitch Merriman's still climbing in the NW. "I thought cams made routes easier" Depends on the route, my young jedi...but you already knew that, right? For rating changes check out Easter Overhang...it went from 5.9 to 5.10c! Hell were were doing laps on it with nuts, even before EBs (they were an early brand of rock shoe retro boy were easily available in the mid '70s. No question EO is easier on cams. How the hell are you anyway? Fulton said he see you once in awhile. But I am the first to admit...you two are getting old! Dane

I'll take 'um. Give me a call 425 391 3202 or email is fine too. Hold old is the perlon?

Lots of good climbing in Idaho...none right on the river if you are rafting. Enjoy the float and do the climbing on another trip, you'll be happier.

"If I recall, without Schneider, who was an excellent climber and businessman, really ran the show..... Katie Kimble got her leg ripped off by a falling rock. Between Karl's death and Katie's injury, Katie had bought LAG from Karl's wife IIRC. Karl had bought Donini out just prior to his death in SA. By every account it was the loss of Karl that ended LAGs. I think Katie was ready to move on by my memories of the time. Everyone else was already gone in one way or another after Karl's death is how it seemed to me. I had been working in Canada and Alaska earlier and was hired by Karl just before his fatal trip. My involvement was short lived working for Katie and watching the business die. But my point was the climbing community was much smaller then. Easier to do quality trips and not over run the area. It would be much harder now not to accomodate the increased clientele and not overwhelm the area, especially the Enchantments and the better routes that we both loved to work on. Keeping a handle on all of that and running a successful business would take some amazing managment skills IMO from the concessions and the USFS. I wouldn't trust either to have those skills today. Climbers and times change. I wouldn't want to see more commercial use of the the Leavenworth/Enchanment/ Stuart area and better management of the use that has been granted. Just my 2 cents worth.

This is actually a Ice Flow...sorry. Still available. I'll take anything short of postage stamps as payment

" Ordinarily it should be difficult to discern a GOOD guided group from an ordinary group of climbers. The client/guide ratios would be small, but you might detect that the group is well-organized, the clients are asking a lot of questions, and the guide might stand out as one who seems to be running the show and is dressed, perhaps, more professionally as a climber. " If it were only true. No disrespect intented to you but that is really pushing it. From the groups I saw just last summer none of the comments are true. More than two people, no one standing out professionally in appearence. The only reason LAG ran small parties is because they only had small bookings before going out of business. Although that was the intended client to guide ratio as I remember, filling classes and trips was the actual reason group sizes stayed small. Adding a guide would have kept the ratio down but not the group size. That would not be the case today for a professionally ran guide service based in Leavenworth. While some deminish the attitude and commercialisn on Rainier it is in fact a successful business. The same problems you see on Rainier, you see on McKinley with the same company. Ever been around Manure Pile when YM was doing a class in the valley? Increase the permits and you'll see more of that rather than less of it in other places. Utopia in the mountains is for everyone to have their own pice of the pie but at some point you have to slow it down and back up a bit. The reality is not guide bashing. I have spent a good deal life making a living from guiding in the mountains and on the river. I no longer do so. But I do see limitations that should be set for better, long term public use. Mountains are not a city street or building. A wheel chair ramp or a guide service isn't needed IMO on every crag and in every corner of the public lands. Being a mtn. guide is an honored profession in Europe or Canada and has been for a century. Guides are looked at in the same manner as a Doctor or any other professional there for good reason. The point of the conversation is not guide bashing. A professional guide is the steward of his sport and environment. But don't close your eyes to the effect of your craft on that environment and the effects of a market driven business on our resourses. In other words it aint about you dude. Dwayner and many of you have been around long enough to see the effects of the climbing population boom. To not acknowledge the effects of over-use and attempt to limit it is unforgivable IMO. Here is a short list of the most popular guided climbs that would see even more use: Outer Space Orbit M.J. Dihedral Upper N. Ridge of Stuart West Ridge and S.F. of Prusik N. face and ridges on Dragontail Fault, Catapult, Midway, Saber, Canary Gibler's Dome Weekend the same routes are already over used and I sure don't care to see a guided party on them mid week, no matter how gracious or professional the guide is.