Dane

Thanks...excellent example, for situational ethics. Some how you guys seem to think that it is OK for you but not OK for the climbing community? Sadly the elitiest attitude is how we got here. I have actually put up a few routes myself and could have done exactly what Marty and friends choose to do at Dishman....could have done it 10 years ago and choose not to because the rock was more valuable to me that putting my name on another route. Deciding what should be done on any routes is a privledge reserved for those that actually go out and do the climbs but those decisions aren't made in a vacuum.

And that my young friend is the most egotistical statement you have made to date. Sadly ignorant of the facts as well besides being obviously mistaken. You want to manufacture routes do so on something you actual do own and not public domain.

Ya, easy to get confused when you have to chop a few holds just to get up something at "your" level. But how would you know what your level is if..every time you can't do a climb you just ...oh, ya, chop yet another hold.

Let me be very clear Marty's routes at Dishman {and some of the others} are altered for convenience, to reduce their difficulty. Any misrepresebntation past that fact is a lie. You think this is the only place this is happened with this crew? Get real.

I am here with you and will with the others in time. Your guide, your climbs, your lack of ethics, your chipped holds, your Sharpe. PM their names and numbers and I'll call them. Dishman 6/24/04 Marty some of what was written and climbed was exceptional. Some of both are tripe and insulting to me and a good many others in the community as a whole. It isn't the first time you have heard that. As far as how you viewed my contribution to the community, no question you actually gave me more credit than I deserved. Only because we hadn't yet met I suspect What Marty's and his buds consider and treat like a trash heap, Dishman 06/24/04

Marty, Sorry I missed you while I was in Spokane. Like I said in the message I was at the Elk for dinner. Thought you might drop in. Saw and read your guide book last night. We need to meet face to face and talk. I'll make sure that happens this summer. All that said. I spent a hour or so @ Dishman last night and talked with locals on both sides. Gotta tell you dude...and I will to your face and anyone else involved. You, Marty, your climbs at Dishman and the ethics and comments you supported in your guide book and the cast of idiots that vandalized Dishman are totally fucked up. No excuses, no more debate on Dishman or ethics or what should or should not be done. BTDT and saw what what occured. It is unfucking believeable. Only a fool would attempt to justify those actions in any context called climbing in person or on the Internet. I'll post more pictures of the chipped holds, the line of bolts on obvious cracks and next to natural pro, the strings of bolts 3 feet apart on the new and old routes as I get time. Past that I am done with the ethics discussion. But I am not done with the issue. See ya around.

Dishman 6/24/04

Clue! I was thinking a chat in person...since I was at Dishman and later at dinner in Spokane and most of the folks involved knew I was there

Amen to that and why it is easier to walk away from a mess like this than do something about it. I have been on both sides of the issue at different times. By far the worse of the two normally is the chopped mess. But this isn't normal. Now we have a line of bolts beside a perfectly good crack and gym holds bolted to some pretty good routes. I'd rather see a covertly chipped hold that that kind of ugly, shenanigan. And yes there are egos involved for better or for worse. I'd say Marty (who isn't the guilty party on all of this) and I are about par on ego. The dirty bastards who did bolt the trad lines...I would like to have a little chat with. Amazing how they haven't popped up here admitting what they did.

I would really like to know what the general consensus is today on some ethics questions. Would these tacics be tolerated on this side of the mountains at The Chief, Index, or Si? What do you think should be done with these climbs? Dishman- 4 routes with a total of 6 chipped holds. One bolted trad crack. Limestone crags- 2 routes with total of 3 chipped holds Banks Lake-1 How about routes with artificial gyn holds bolted to natural rock? Here is the original thread. What do you think? http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/363588/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1/vc/1

Marty thanks for the clarification on Sudden Impact. It was one of Randy Green's climbs, not mine. Although we did the second ascent and clipped his bugs and left them in place. Didn't look like much else would go in the seam. If pins came out I suspect RPs or steel nuts would go back in. FWIW we also came close to blows over him nailing a crack that would take gear on Amoral Raiders. This isn't this first time I have had this discussion. The second was about Hair of the Dog. This the third. You are right, I am not one of you. But you have no idea how closely we do think. 20 years ago our mind sets were even closer. I suspect we have more in common than either of us might admit. I have been pretty hard on you here and on this issue. But nothing I have written here I wouldn't say to your face. You have offered you side of the story and taken credit for what you and others have done. More than most would do. I respect that. If I am going to chop/chip or burn your house down I'll tell you I am coming first. You have stood up and taken responsibility for a lot of things that were done and defended your side of the issue very well. You are right, we can disagree. I also realise it wasn't you that retro bolted the stuff recently. I do remember Larry being really pissed about the extra bolts on his routes when you started climbing. No idea how he feels about it now. No idea what Keith did. Didn't climb much when he was around. But no, I didn't chip anything. But I was tempted, it is a nice line. I thought it better left for someone capable of actually climbing it. You are right though they won't remember who did the FA...they will remember the POS climbs put up and that were then chopped. In the long run the rock will be important, the climbs and the climbers will be long forgotten. The difference in our thinking is, you obviously think that you have the right to climb every piece of rock. I don't think that way and don't mind walking away from a climb that is beyond me. Lot more of those kind of climbs around these days. But you might try remembering if I and my buds believed as you do now there would be a lot more of our first ascents around and a lot less of yours today It amazes me you don't see the end result of that. I really thought you would do what I consider the stand up thing and lead the entire rock climbing community from the front. It is everyone's loss that you don't see the other side more clearly. I'll be in Spokane tomorrow evening if you have time for a friendly beer. Send me a PM and I'll get you my cell #. I'll even buy. Others can vote your feelings here: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=PETEY&Number=365848&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=all&vc=1&fpart=1

Marty stated that UNI pictured above and again here originally done on 8/10/88 and rated 5.11b was the "5.12a" he top roped in the previous post. http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/365360/Main/363588#Post365360 Just to be clear there are several much harder climbs on Chimney than UNI. None of them were ever thought to be 5.12. Having done all of them, many of them several times, I would find it really hard to believe any climb of the old trad lines at Chimney are now .12, sorry. Take a trip to the Valley, Index, the Chief or Indian Creek if you are thinking differently.

Ok, say we do. I am going out to Exit 38 in the next few minutes. I am taking my drill and going to make a bunch of finger pocket climbs. Couple of the local projects at Little Si I am going to chop some holds on so I can lead them now. Going to dbl up the bolts so I can hang my way up them and never risk more than a 2" fall. You cool with that Lucky? Bet not. Nothing valid about manufacturing routes, chipping holds and adding bolts. All of this is what Marty has done, is doing and continues to support. Wouldn't be tolerated on this side of the Cascades and I suspect you, Lucky, would be one of many guys wanting to tune his ass up about it. Partly right. The rock is more imortant than any route. The quaility of the route more important that any one climber.

Ok, thanks. I did lead the route, on sight and with gear. Amoral Raiders, Tsunami, Kimmie and others are harder on Chimney. We rated UNI .11b FWIW. Ya, I repeated routes for 35 years so I figured that out a while ago. Thanks for taking the time. I appreciate it. I have never chipped a hold anywhwere. Never been with anyone doing so. What I said was I gave a TR to Keith on the north end of Dishman on the longest line just left of Wings. He actually climbed some of it...except where there where no holds obviously. I figured out what you were asking after rereading my comment. What I was saying is that if I or others had wanted to climb on the north wall years ago I could have easily done so myself by chipping holds to connect the line...I didn't. Neither did anyone else till you came along. I climbed Magnum Force a couple of times. The first with only hexs and tube chocks on the 2nd free ascent. The other times with Friends. Never placed or used a pin on Magnum Force, so you tell me. The bolt that Becky placed below the crux on the right wall, Roskelly actually stepped on an snapped off on a early aid ascent. I placed a total of one pin on Chimney...on Illusions and removed it on the second ascent with my fingers a year later. I used a couple of Zero TCUs in the crux after that. You guys don't have large pro? 50' with no protection is hard to believe. My memory isn't that bad and the layback flake...to the chimney isn't that bad either. Crux is a little airy though I'll second that How about we get together over a beer or 2 and clean up Dishman?

Marty sadly you don't get it. I guess the discussion isn't going to get us far. May be it will mean something to others who read this and climb in the area. The problem is, and this is going to sound trite, but it is about "fear". I climbed 5.12 and soloed 5.11 to see if I could actually do it. But you don't have to climb 5.9 or solo 5.6 to care about what happens at Dishman. All you have to do is climb to figure out what has happened at Dishman is wrong. I stayed off things that scared me, like the Bachar-Yerian or Super Crack at Midnight. I lowered a number of climbs to my level by hanging on them and beating them to death. Nothing wrong with that. Adding permanent additional pro to acknowledged climbs that were done years ago is FLATLY unacceptable by any modern standard, at any level. Do I need to comment on the ethics of chopping holds or adding artificial holds to natural climbs? I'll make a statement on that when I get back to Dishman shortly. They'll all be gone when I am done. No one can justify adding pro on long standing climbs and bolting trad routes as acceptable for any reason. The only reason I see is fear. Fear is a good thing right up to the point where you allow your fear to define how you treat our enviroment. Dishman is still mine, just as much as it is the 12 year old flashing 5.15s, or yours Marty. But you don't get to damage it or deface it at your whim. Again you are wrong on your rant. Slave labor was bolted by Pat. Hair of the Dog by Kurt. You are uneducated and clearly wrong thinking that the "beginner's" routes were lead and protected by the same people. They weren't. They were climbed in totally different styles. But neither would anyone climbing then come back and degrade routes already done. They didn't bolt mine and I didn't chop theirs once they had actually been climbed. There have been 3 or 4 generations of climbers at Dishman by now. You aren't the first Marty. Stop acting like it. You mention that you placed bolts on TOG and Firestone that were pounded over. You also admit that you started climbing there in the early '90s. Those same bolts were placed around the same time. So you just thought both climbs needed more pro because the climbs scared you? WTF Marty? That defaced the climbs, not admitting that is again, BS. Easy enough to see the rub between you and Peterman from just that one instance. Haven't seen your guide book antics yet. A couple of us were the first to climb at Dishman. We didn't add bolts we didn't need. We worked hard at it. We also had already been climbing longer when we discovered Dishman than you have been now. We ( but you can give credit to Larry Peterman) climbed hard enough and with enough boldnesss to do the routes that were there. Your generation was left with a legacy and IMO you and a bunch of dolts trashed it. Instead of just taking your situational ethics to places like Deep Creek and China Bend (which you have developed and have the right to do as you like no matter how screwed up your ideas are) you decided how you climbed should be how everyone climbed. That is too bad. BTW you wanted to drive my car now you have to be resposible enough to take the wheel. Sorry lad, you aint got it yet and I wouldn't let you touch my horse. You want your ethics to be left alone? Sorry that isn't going to happen. Just to be clear I DO have a serious beef with anyone who has defaced Dishman or any where I have climbed for that matter. I suspect now there are a good number of us that do. "More climbing, less chipping and less ego"

Problem with putting things in writing is, well, you get called on them from time to time. Putting in bolts on obvious trad routes like Klingon @ Dishman is BS. We all know that or should know that. When an over the hill codger like me has to point that out to kids lacking a little moral fortitude and a set of balls, to be honest about it, it is pretty weak. Marty the vast majority of routes I put in were done on lead, on sight. Simply because you can't top rope most of them even if you wanted to. I have placed 6 total bolts in my life. All of them on short routes I did first on TR because there was no natuaral pro. 4 of those bolts some idiot pulled so the route would stay a TR or you could pretty much solo it like I did on the FA. I never spend hours, let alone days, doing anything on a rock route less than 1000 feet high. I did take some good wingers with that attitude. Certainly not the way eveything needs to be done. Hard to find a new unclimbed crack these days. Never felt like I climbed 5.12 either and figured if I had to work harder, I didn't really want to do it. So why the trip down memory lane? Lot of very hard routes being done. Lot of over use of the Bosch on routes that were done 20 years ago. Guys like you, Marty should be saying.."NO more retro bolts", not, "cool, more bolts!" I admire hard climbs. When I started climbing 5.9 was hard. I thought .12s were hard when I was trying them. The stuff you guys are doing is incredible. But it is a bad example and a loss to the climbing community to place bolts on climbs that others will obviously be doing sooner or latter when you can't. Worse yet to add a bolt to a climb you don't want to do without a bolt and has been done many, many times before you. That gets my hackles up even today. I don't have a problem with Marty or any of the guys who retro bolted Dishman. I do have a problem with their actions. Marty and others have made judgements that the climbs at Dishman were top roped to death before being bolted. That may or may not be the case. Fact is it is not. Peterman was climbing very hard to do those routes. And none of the guys mentioned were around when they were being done...I was. You have to be a egostictical SOB to assume that you have the right to retro bolt another man's art work. Dishman holds some of Larry's masterpieces. Sadly you guys owe him an apology. I'll let you know what is owed on Klingon when I get done cleaning it up. Worse yet you can't solve the problem of defacing the rock or what the next generation of climbers will have to look at from your mess. OK, Marty this is just plain BS. While I do respect your obvious climbing ability this is really stupid. Guys like Larry, Jim Purty, Curt Shannon, Glen Cameron, Bob Loomis, Kim Momb, Gwain Oka, Chuck Hartshorn, Darcy Droste, Pat Mahoney and a host of others could have done all sorts of stuff at Dishman if we had wanted to chop holds on the north end 20 years ago since you missed that fact. I encouraged Keith Wallace to work on the middle and longest line in the early '90s and thought it could be done then...TR'ed Keith on it in fact. Doesn't matter that our holds would have been larger or not...they are still chopped holds. If you think UNI was 5.12 then I would have to even question that thought. The artificial holds need to come off the wall. The chopped holds need to be filled. The retro bolting needs to be stopped and the extra bolts need to go. Simple as that. What really pisses me off about all of this is you guys trashing a great rock climbing resourse. The garbage can easily be cleaned up and the area made into the park it once was. The rock resource can't be renewed...too bad you didn't learn that while learning how to climb on the stuff we put up 20 years ago. It is a damn shame. This shouldn't be Dane and Marty bashing heads here. What it should be is all of us that value climbing and the finite resource, protecting it. I'm going to call Steve Reynolds in the next few minutes and hopefully arrange a few days off to work at Dishman. Everyone is welcome to join us and maybe put these kinds of issues to rest. Marty as an aside it would be nice if you would read your own thread and answer the questions I asked. http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/341046/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1

Nice Marty.... Fact is you didn't do most the routes, someone else did. That you have now done them means nothing. Leaving them as the first ascent parties did does mean something. What you think needs a few extra bolts might just be the solos for tomorrow's beginners. Chew on that awhile, since it is in fact true. There is no reason to retro bolt beyond safety. Over-inflated egos aren't a valid reason, no matter how much you pontificate. There will always be guys that will come after you that will look at your efforts as a simpleton's walk up. But the fact is you started climbing on someone else's routes if that fact has escaped you. So did I. Clue in dude. You weren't the first generation with a bolt gun. Lot of insults being spewed about on top roping and then leading. I'd be real careful with that sort of implication when your forte is hard bolted sport climbs. Someone might really take offense and start chopping your old routes, new routes and projects. Wouldn't that be disappointing? Just to be clear I don't think chopping bolts is the answer. Makes the climbing experience less IMO. But it does indeed need to be talked about. FWIW I chopped the achor bolts mid way up the wall on, "Hair of the Dog", not the route 20 years ago. But I think retro bolting and support for it should be condemned in the community. Instead of placing a bolt every 2 feet at Dishman how about adding good TR anchors and cleaning the place up. That would be a better service to the climbing community. Sorry, I forgot all you want to do is go clip a few "beginner" bolts after work so you can stay toned for your .14c projects. How is it a obviously good climber, missed the real basics Marty? No one got permission at Dishman. No one asked. As an aside, bars are not the best for popping bolts. Best way is to shear them off flush with the rock. Easy enough to do. With the answers I have seen here I might be willing to give a few demos in the Spokane area and post my schedule.

"DISHMAN: Almost all the routes at Dishman have been retrobolted at this point thanks to the efforts of Grady Roberts, Eric Lawson, and Sean Smith. Now you'll only need a hand full of quickdraws for an after work session at Dishman. Thanks you guys." If you are the guys who bolted Klingon and added bolts to the other lines...ya thanks a lot...big improvement.

Not everything is bolted. Not everything is something you want to wing off of. Down climbing is never going to be a bad thing, might even save your ass from a nasty fall. If you want to onsight at your ability, down climbing just below your ability is going to come in real handy. If you can't climb down you are playing only half the game.

Quick opinions and them some comments below. 1.Kim Momb bouldered what we now call Smokey on Fire, way back when. I belive that he may have if he started 2/3 the way down(V6) That would be my opinion also...if it were done at all before '85 when Kim died. The up side is if Bob showed you exactly what Kim did and he saw it himself, you can write it in stone. Phone conversations and email are really difficult to get exact info IMO. We were all proud of what we were doing at the time and an extremely difficult boulder problem would have been common knowledge in our small circle. Tom Krummes, Glenn Cambron or Pat Mahoney might have done it from the higher point and first showed me the boulder. That was a step up from what Kim was doing before his death and 4 or 5 years later. 2. Hair of the Dog. Why did the bolts get chopped? see below 3. Synchronicity. Did anyone actually get a redpoint style ascent on this route? I don't believe so. Pat and Larry would know for sure. I know they argued about it some 4. The thin crack 10ft left of Greystoke on Chimney. see below 5. Could you draw in all the routes on chimney that aren't in Randalls topo. Yes, the ones that I know of (there are others) but you also need a new topo if you are going to do a new guide book. Randy's topo could be better and more detailed. 6. Did Loomis list all of the hardest routes in his guide I think Bob listed what he/we would have considered worth showing in a guide. Bob was also a gifted climber and didn't alway print everything he knew about was my take on it for no other reason than to leave a little adventure out there. There were boulders that were not included. Kim was a very strong on the boulders. While I bouldered some I wasn't really interested in them enought to keep track of how hard they were but I did keep a running knowledge of what was being done and by whom. Kim and John Roskelley, Fulton, and others had a friendly running competition at Minne. Kim and John did a trip to Yosemite and climbed with IIRC Werner Braun, Ron Kalk for sure and several of the other locals. I remember Kim telling me about the boulders of camp 4 and bringing back the first Fire's to Spokane. So Kim certainly has exposure to some very difficult boulders there. The most difficult thing I personally whitnessed Kim doing (and we climbed a good deal of rock together) was bouldering the bottom of Smokey's thin hand crack from the very back, starting off the block. Common boulder for him to do out to the 1st lip. He would also 3rd class the upper roof. I remember some bouldering on the face to the right of Smokey but I don't think it was ever actually done before '88 or later. Bob did an excellent job putting the guides together but it is easy to get things a bit mixed up when writing it all down and a lot of it from 3rd party sources. "Hair of the Dog"? Again you are stretching my memory, but if I chopped them and I "think" I did, it was because Kurt hadn't lead it, placed the gear with a bosch (a first in Spokane) and the anchors were only half way up the rock. That was '88 by Bob's book (I seem to remember it being earlier) and my message was suppose to be "send the route" not stop half way up. I was never bashful about my opinion. A few of us half heartily tr'ed the entire line and thought if you could actually climb hard enough to do the bottom you should go to the top. Pretty weak effort IMO (bouldering that was never lead) compared to the days of effort Pat and especially Larry did at Dishman to add so many quality routes at a high standard for the day. Lot of stuff happening in the late '80s in rock climbing. Not all of it good. This climb is a classic example from both sides of the debate. Kurt is active on a couple of boards maybe we ought to ask him his thoughts? I posted a picture of the fragile crack right of Greystoke in the "hardest" thread. Are you now asking about one left of Greystoke? There are a number of routes on Chimney not in Randy's book. Could you please answer my query on the other thread?

Doing Lingerie the old fashioned way...straight on, trad gear, no slippers or chalk to follow and on the sharp end of the rope.

Marty is this the crack you are talking about right of Greystoke? It is pretty thin on the bottom and fragile so it sounded similar. Crux was higher IIRC. I ended the short pitch at the no hands stance just below the o/w crux of Magnum Force and rapped off something that was there (plus some backup I left)...rap slings on a chock stone IIRC. In addition to UNI pictured above there is another crack I had forgotten, "Amoral Raiders". Again off the end of the South Nose ledge with Greystoke, Uni and Magnum Force coming first. Raiders is on the white "blade" of rock right of Magnum Force. It starts off in a solid tips/finger crack with a boulder problem crux and then goes into a straight in, thin hand crack off a little pinnacle. Rap sling can just be seen on the big detached block mid frame on the right in the pictures above. Another short pitch and originally one of Randy's and Martin McBurneys' projects. I knocked out their fixed pin on the lower crux and then later lead it on a tcu. Caused some little friction between Randy and myself. Silly, now. I have a picture slotting the hands section somewhere. (unique @ Chimney because the crack is straight in) I suspect it is the technically most difficult trad pitch on Chimney because of the boulder start. Hard enough I top roped the bottom crux section a couple of times first, from the little pinnacle. (it wasn't my project which is why I have tried to forget it I suppose and where the "amoral" came from) There is another NE face route, seperate line top to bottom that goes through an undercling arrow head shaped roof half way up, "Stained Window". No where near as hard as the others there and a nice line, .10a or so and long. I had stopped keeping a really detailed journal in '86. The climbs I just mentioned were done in '87/'88. A number of folks have done routes not yet mentioned. "Wish he were she" one of them, another, a bolt ladder continued up from Greystoke's bolt anchor to the South Nose ledge, which also didn't thrill me as it was done top down. The crack connecting Yahoody'd first pitch to Cannary Legs and Cooper/Hiser. Must be others. I have a good set of topos based on the picture below. But nothing really showing the Greystoke/S. Nose area directly. UNI is the last crack shown on the left in this picture. You can just make out the dbl set of short corners midway up the rock and just left of the long, white "blade" of Magnum Force and Raiders.

Sounds good, count me in.

The question was for eastern Washington. Banks Lake is pushing "eastern" IMO. Just a thought. Cascades define the Eastern border of the West side, Columbia basin the Cental and the confluence of the Spokane and Columbia as the western edge of the Eastern section of Washington.

Got me on that one. I thought Lingerie (done as a straight in crack and no stemming) harder than anything on Chimney and Jihad equal to any finger crack there. When Randy's guide came out I was the only one to have lead all the harder Chimney routes (all but two multiple times times) . I tried to give Randy a comparison of known routes he and I had done else where (Yosemite, Levenworth, Index, SC). Dave Fulton, and Jay Koopen added to that info having done a number of the routes. Some of the easy comparisons were Clean Crack at Malemute, Lion's Chair, Lunatic Fringe, Lazy Bum, Thin Fingers at Index, ROTC and Steven's Pass Motel and Spellbound. There were others but that is what comes to mind at the moment. We all know hand and body size can make a big difference in cracks. Max Dufford, Randy Green, Martin McBurney and Dave Fulton were the only guys I knew repeating the harder cracks in the Inland Norwest Area during the late '80s and early '90s without taking some good wingers. Max and Pat Mahoney repeated Tsunami and IIRC Max thought it 5.11b. Max, Jim Purdy and I repeated Yahoody. Again if IRC their concensus was 5.11b. Compared to the infamious Daryl Cramer/ Index 5.11b. If you look at Randy's "Idaho Rock" fifteen years later I might suggest looking at the ratings posted for the East face of Chimney rock as a progressive rating system instead of a letter grade that is comparable to anything today. All that said the harder trad pitches on Chimney are, the roof pitch of Tsunami, the middle pitch of Eye of the Tiger, the corner on Grey Matter, GreyStoke, Yahoody's line and Yourinalasis. All of them are excellent cracks and there are several I didn't list equal to any mentioned including "UNI" just left of Magnum Force, or Illusions and Kimmie on the main east face. Almost all of them are right hand layback cracks. All of them are nice trad routes but I couldn't tell you with any truth which is the most difficult by grade. All of them were done ground up, on sight and typically with no falls. I suspect a couple of them might actually be 5.11a/b. The feed back I have heard from the guys repeating is typically, "it aint that hard, I only had to hang a few times through the crux". I would have thought someone would have dug up one harder than .11b/c by now?