Dane

"The windchill has no effect, or very little, on how cold your feet are. " B.S. For any number of reasons. But that isn't the question. If things go right and you have perfect weather any of the newer leather boots with a Super gaiter will get you to the summit. Above 17K won't be fun no matter how nice it is early summit morning and getting back down late. Anything goes wrong, you get sick, weather comes in or any of a couple dozen other thing you'd have wished you'd brought plastic. Cheap insurance IMO for you not just your feet.

Liberty Crack was C1 in 1975 for crimmey sake....something change?

"Tex – I’ll belay you on ROTC (its soft for the grade, you should onsight it) if you’ll belay me on Supercrack." If you want a little more fun do Stevens Pass to get to the base of ROTC. Leading both pitches makes a nice climb.

Yes. They are excellent. Send me a private email if you have specific questions.

"I wanted the Trango Ice over the Extreme S was because the Ice was not leather (wet ect) The Extreme S are made from 3mm. roughout Leather were as the Ice are Keprotec. " The ICE and the new Trango extreme S are the same/similar materials and no "real" leather. (3mm idro-perwanger leather) I suspect it would be as durable and as water proof as the Keprotec (which isn't). The ICE has a removable tongue to help it dry more easily and a shitty gaiter to keep it wet. I have the ICE and the older leather Extremes (last year's model) and had for several days, the new Extreme S. Jim Nelson says the boots ( Ice and Extreme S) in his shop have the same insulation now. My didn't so I kept the Ice which is an extremely warm boot. If that was not the case I would have a pair of the new Extreme S and use them for everything from Denali to Stuart. May be it was the Idro-P that turned me off too. But you are correct they aren't the same boot. I am extremely pleased with the Ice with some mods. But the new Extreme S would be a better boot in many ways for the majority of my own climbs. I think both boots are better than the Nepal Tops. YMMV best thing to do is find them and try 'um on. Marmot has the old Extremes on sale BTW for just over $200.

I would not do the ICE. I love mine but take a look at the thread on the Ice in this forum. I would buy the newer Trango Extreme S. Suppose to be the ICE with traditional lace top. These are not leather boots but made of synthetics so they are up to the abuse of glacier climbing. No way would I do plastics these days for anything. There are better answers from Sportiva and Vasques among others.

As noted the Trangos, in any version, are stiff enough for Chair. Anything up to, say WI 3 should be fine, I think? They are light on the feet too and warm enough most of the winter around here I suspect. I am going to use them myself on the next "alps" climb. I won't take them to Canada in winter but the Ice is certainly warm enough for the Rockies on my feet (as the Trango extreme S should be). I was happy with them on some pretty cold (-30) climbs last year. On another note I did not realise the tongues are velcroed in on the Ice and easily removable to dry the boot out. I supect everyone but me already knew that.....but the tongues do "rip" right out and the boot drys fast opened up.

This from 1/8/03 This from yesterday, 1/15/03 about 100 or 150 feet from the other photo's position..... This one just after cresting the ridge. The ridge was wind blown here and still knee deep. It will get better everyday as long as we don't get any more snow.

How about the Ale house in Issaquah?

I went to within 50 yards of the base of the N Face yesterday. 1/15/03 The lower sled trail is still OK for sneakers. Snow shoes from the bench up and there is more than 20" of snow at the last bit getting over the ridge and on the slopes getting to the face propper. (no major avalanche debris yet either) Last week the bit of side hill to the route was good hard snow. We were 3 hours in postholing a new trail last week. 4 hours yesterday on snow shoes.....and no sign of last week's cow path. Some fair size cornices across the way on the north slopes and the wind was howling. The up side is there was also a fair bit more ice than last week on the first pitch.

"My understanding is that the Trango Ice, and the new Trango Extreme S have the same insulation. This includes a 3mm layer of PE micro-cellular closed cell foam. You can feel it." I had a new pair of the Trango extreme S from Neptune via Sportiva in Oct. They were not insulated in the same manner as my ICE are. They did not fit the same, in the same size...everyone tells me they built on the same last. The last size comparison, I believe, insulation on the two pair of boots I had here to play with made me doubt the rest. If that has changed, cool! No disrespect directed to anyone posting, best thing to do is make your own comparison and forget what the ads, salesmen and "official" web site says. Jim has them both at Promountain Sports...and I suspect he has forgotten more about Sportivas than I know. The Extreme S I had here would take at least one more pair of woolies and felt like a boat in comparison to the ICE. Not what I wanted or paid for just telling you what I saw comparing the two in person. "Does the new gear lower the grade?" When you started in Galibers/Harderers and terros the new gear does lower the grade by a good number of suffer points. But you already knew that

Red S is a soft flexing in the sole boot and no toe clip, Extreme S seems insulated, as you say in the heel, ( I sure couldn't tell it) has crampon clip points and a near rigid sole, but a really soft ankle compared to the Trango Extreme ....makes some sense now after looking at both compared to the Ice. Now we are nit picking I suspect anyone under size 9 with normal feet would have a hard time telling the difference between any of them. Things get a little more clear when you wear 47s. All three are good boots IMO. I suspect in another season or two they'll have a really good boot

You are correct, Trango S (red) isn't what I was talking about. Trango Extreme was/is yellow and all leather and takes clip on crampons. New boot is the Trango Extreme S and much like the Trango Ice, all synthetic, but with black a lace up cuff, no velcro. Little confusing helps to look here: http://www.sportiva.com/products/mountain/mountain.html

I too was told the new Trango Extreme S was insulated. I ordered in the same size as my Ice thinking these dudes are "rocking". The didn't fit the same...bigger actually...and they didn't feel like they were insulated to me in a side by side comparison. (I am no shoe maker but that was my 2 cents) Suppose to be the same last and same insulation as the ICE. They actually felt just like my old trango extremes but with all the new materials which make the ankle flex even softer in comparison. Nice boot but not what I was looking for. The fact that the ICE was lighter didn't help either. The S went back and I rethought what i was going to do with the ICE. Dave Page set the eyelets and I would suspect he'll rememeber where I punched the holes (let him do that too) . One set low and two high with grommet backs. Velcro strap now adds some (its all relative) support for front pointing and the yellow material (what ever it is) offers more suport than the black stuff they are using on the new Trango S cuffs. Seems like a worth while improvement for the 10 minutes to cut off the gaiter and $15 to Dave Page. Minx, if you have small feet and want a good all around boot...that is really stiff in the sole with good ankle flexability and warm, the Ice would be fine as is. Best bet is call Sportiva and talk to Rose in customer service. They have a good number of women climbing in their boots and can give you better advice.

"It was running water " Lots of different skill levels on every forum. Too much info for some I suspect but when I see water running down the ice and exposed rock at 11AM on a alpine north face in January I would generally figure the climb out of shape and the weather too warm. In this case, time proved that a little cold weather and a few more days of freeze/ thaw and the route was certainly "in" for those that got up it over the weekend. I wanted to get back up there very early Saturday morning for better conditions (ie no water running down that first pitch), freezing temps and avoid the rush. Didn't get the chance. Looks to me like anyone that figured the face was slim and the temp. inversion extreme early in the week was spot on in their assessment of conditions. Those were the conditions on Wedsday. No worries here, I'll get a chance to go back in soon. Afterall that is what makes this sport so fun, what you are willing to wager on every trip. Forums always show the guys who are too much and not enough .

"Of course everything looks good to go in front a computer screen" Glad you could pull that one out... Ray. Make sure to introduce yourself, I'll be around.

"It looks thin in those photos but good to go." Everything looks "good to go" sitting in front of a computer screen. Laughed my ass off about someone saying a simple little cascade climb was "too thin" last week so went and looked myself.....with John breaking a trail hip deep from the fog up to get my sorry ass in there. Same trail most followed later in the week I suspect. I brought a short axe and a chacel...hell, I have soloed Takakkaw and Cavell with the same tools, how hard can a grade 2+ be? Well dude from where I was standing and took a piss, it looked a little thin to me. I am a lot less likely to criticise anyone's comments now. I'll go look and not be so full of myself next time when i rack up. Ya it would have been "good to go" on Wed, with a couple of short tools, a small rack of rock gear and the stones to walk in and then run it out. For all I know it was even harder on Friday or Saturday. Good posibility that there was even more ice than Wed. Either way, those that did climb, did good getting up Chair this week. Anyone else is just another wanker with a key board IMO.

Thought some might like to hear this if you have the Sportiva Trango Ice. Which BTW is a lot warmer than the new Trango Extreme S which is uninsulated. The Ice is also lighter to "boot" The gaiter sucks if you have big feet (11.5 USA) for easy on and off, (read nightmare on a multiday climb) the velcro and weird lacing won't hold your heel down if you have a problem fit in the ankle (read narrow heels) . Fast fix and really helps getting the boot on and off is chop the fabic gaiter, forget the back lace system and have a set of three eyelets installed for lacing the upper cuff on the boot. After a week at -30 in the Rockies, a bunch of walking in hip deep Cascade slush and some french technique, I vote these one of the best all around cold weather ice boots out in the last 20 years. YMMV but they are one of the few boots I think worth the coin for all around technical use here, Canada or Alaska.

Conditions on Wed 1/8/03 at around 11AM. Loooked a little thin to me then and I like thin It was running water with less than 2" of ice on the bottom in the best of places and wouldn't hold a pick well enough for my huevos and my 3 pins. Doesn't mean it couldn't be done, just that I didn't do it. Nice climb guys! Neat thing about alpine climbing, when they are in they are awesome. This one looks sweet!