Dane

Guess we can disagree. I am tired of the lack of honesty in the Dishman discussion. 3 or 4 climbers aren't the community. But no question a bolt war is busllshit. War is typically bs. War is a waste of resources to make a point. It has nothing to do with "my" routes. That is not and has never been the issue at Dishman. The Dishman pictures are self explanitory. People just don't seem to want to play nice. That continues and I will cease to play nice.

Yes sir, pictures of your fellow's handiwork seem to bring out the best of this conversation. Marty, don't bother posting on INWR until you acknowledge what the real problem is at Dishman. It is the shit that you and Grady and others have done. Until we get past that point there isn't going to be any merit in the discussion. It isn't the garbage, the graffitti, water tower, bum camp, camp fire burn, syringes, glass or condoms. All that can be fixed with a rental truck and tractor and a few hours labor. The problem is your little group of climbers that think you have it all wired and know what is best for the Dishman and climbing. That isn't likely to change from this discussion. I have never met Sara or Grady but you and I have talked and I know Dave Stephens well. I am sure that all of you are very nice human beings, certainly seemed so. Problem is you aren't when it comes to protecting a limited resource, the rocks at Dishman and the use of a Bosch. Like I told you on the phone I have more in common with you as a group than I have with many who would prefer seeing a lot more changed at Dishman that might really need to. Compromise can be a good thing. You guys are beginging to get pissed from me poking you with a sharp stick? Guess where I started at after looking at your mess. Stick to the subject Marty...the climber's garbage dump at Dishman.....which you have added to in a big way. It isn't Martin Cash. Who the fuck are you Marty? Wrote a shitty guide book and sent a few routes? BFD. Tired of anyone impling otherwise about anyone involved, everyonew concerned is a climber...end of that discussion. I am tired of all the bs you guys are capable of in this discussion. You don't deserve the respect that climbing hard would typically imply. You want to get a case of the ass instead of own up to the fucked up mess you and Grady and others have created at Dishman? I already have one. You can either deal with the rest of the climbing community or you can deal with the end result. Your choice. Becareful what you ask for. I could easily start by removing every hanger at Dishman and then move on to Deep Creek, China Bend and Marcus. Then I could do the same thing again a week or two later. That would get darn expensive Neither is it an idle threat. Do you all have the stones, pocket book and time for a bolt war? Think long and hard about that one before you answer, because I do. What I would prefer to do is reach a compromise of what can go and what can stay at Dishman, clean the place up, set in place some sort of foundation so this doesn't happen again and then go climbing.

Ya, a picture pretty much says it all doesn't it.

be there

Here is what the discussion is all about...Dishman July of 2004. I figure every climber is a cool guy or gal that I would want to share a beer with right up to the point when one of them lowers my personal climbing experience or vandalizes the rock I climb on. There are two sides to every issue but I have yet to see the other side of these pictures. Dishman will not stand as is. How it gets refurbished is up to those involved. This is just a tiny bit of Grady's and others "art work" @ Dishman. There is a lot more. Tell me there are two sides to this kind of vandalism? chipped holds on Martyangelo Another set of chipped holds. The river rock bolted on and chipped holds to complete Grady's "master piece", Been around the Block. Bolts just to make the climb more "user friendly". How about bolts you clip from the ground at an easy arm's reach? route finding...a Sharpe marker. Here is a good one...a glue on hold and a bolted on gym hold within reach of each other. How about 5 bolts on less than 10 feet of climbing, where there was originally one bolt and natural pro was used. The first you now clip on the ground! All on a 15 year old 5.12. Two sides to every story? A new bolt and a set of rap chains actually in the last and crux moves of the 5.11b, Rock 106, first done and an instant classic in 1987. The 2004 line of bolts on the 1980 5.11a trad route, Klingon. More recent bolted cracks at Dishman. We are organizing a cleanup. It is a 5 hour drive from Seattle but if you are interested in our limited rock resources and willing to helping out please send me a private mail. You can even get in a bit of decent climbing while you are there For Grady's comments you can look here. http://inlandnwrock.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=54&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Anyone that knows or climbs with Grady Roberts please let him know I would like to talk ot him in person or on the phone. Thanks, Dane

With so many in the Spokane area that have climbed elsewhere it would seem a logical conclusion to add that to INWR. Give me a call and I'll hook it up if you are interested in being the first.

Caught on a body belay? 140 footer after he slipped of the ramp pitch on Liberty Crack, 1975. Partner ended up eye to eye with me. It got our attention. Mine for the rest of the day. His for several weeks. Taken? 50 footer on a 70 foot sport climb. Partner was done belaying, somehow thinking I was done climbing being only an arms reach from the chains on easy ground. That onto a 2" webbing swami. Annoying and enough flight time to be scary but not all that painful Makes those first 20 and 30 footers seem pretty tame in retrospect The trick is not to hit anything! He did, I didn't. Dumbest? Tired on the second day HD's NWF. Too lazy to pull my sorry ass back on to thankgod ledge with the pack on. Somehow I thought a pendulum to the end of the rope would be just fine. Cut loose and let 'er rip. A seemingly HUGE swing and an even longer drop that I hadn't calulated in my feeeble brain, beat the shit out of me as I bounced across the face and cut the sheath on my brand new 11mm. How far? No clue past, too damn far! A lesson well learned, let your partner carry all the shit and follow you on his new rope. That is some narly shit! How long did it take to heal up? Have you sold the movie rights yet

Lot of noise to wade through here CCC at times. I thought it could easily be done better. So obviously I don't agree that CCC was doing a good job for the INW specifically. That is not CCCs fault. I see a place for both to the benefit of all involved. The Spokane area has enough going on that I thought it would be nice for all of us to be better informed on the activities at the local areas. I was active in the area for awhile, will be again and still have family and property there. So I stop in on occasion. If nothing else it will help me and a few others I climbed with (and in similar situations) easily keep up on the what is happening. The Internet allows easy access to a lot of info. Bringing all of the INW info and players together in one spot a good start. The recent issues at Dishman and the options available to resolve them are a good examples as to why the exchange of current info is a good idea. Having co-authored the original guide to Minne and helped on a section of "Idaho Rock", INWR.com also gives me a place to document some of the info and historical trivia I have collected overtime on what was been done and by who.

Cool, the INW isn't a place, so there is no need for another climber to show up. Westside pogie bait... Anyone living in the INW knows it is a place because they always have to drive somewhere else to do any really good climbing.

Hopefully a good place to add and collect info for INW folks in the future. Currently a work in progress. http://www.standingwave.org/rock/phpBB2/index.php

Work in progress but worth a look for those in the INW area as another resourse. http://www.standingwave.org/rock/phpBB2/index.php

Can't be, I photographed them on Saturday and then pitched 'em of the north face

Relax, the dude's a troll. No one in his right mind would dump a summit register that has been around since the first ascent of Chimney in the '30s. The majority of those summit registers since the '30s have been saved and donated to the Mountaineer's library. Leearden did pull a few of you off! It was an attempt @ a little humor I suspect and poke fun at this thread. If not the USFS will donate another box and we'll add another register. I bet Leearden's name is in the current register that is still sitting in the summit cairn.

Hahahee....rotflmao. REI? Ya, I love buying climbing gear from soccer moms looking for their next cup of Starbucks. More likely the FF guys were thinking about where they would like to be climbing.

Hey Dave good to see you show up here Have you seen what has happened @ Dishman? I couldn't actually believe it, till after I had seen it.

I have like zero time for this discussion and Marty and I are both out of here for the weekend in the next two minutes. That said the tradition of soloing at Minne in general is/was pretty strong. Roskelly infact doing demos, soloing main crack, in mountain school something like 35 years ago is a funny story. I doubt anyone ever looked at a solo of main crack as elevating you to gawd like status. Marty what is up with the atitude? But no matter, you are a bit off the deck and the landing is bad How about we save the solo debate till later so Marty and I can join in the diuscussion. That way we can share some perspectives that have obviously been missed.

Marty did a great job on the guide in general. It was needed for all the areas involved. I doubt there is a 1st ascent listed outside his current pals that the climbers would agree with Marty's editorials or obvious insults directed at earlier climbers like, Larry Peterman, or the quality of routes done previous to Marty starting climbing. For that the guide book falls short. It is as close to a death fall if you want to give a book review. A decent guidebook to the areas? Yes. The majority of the historical info is correct. Not easy to walk a straight line through the ethical debate Marty started and then encouraged by his actions and writing. No question Marty's personality and agenda comes through in his writings. Nothing wrong with that until they clash head on with the long held traditions of climbing. Lucky, before you review a guide book helps to have actually climbed in the area. BTW we don't have any Russians bagging the parking lots in Spokane for all the obvious reasons.

Let me clear this up a bit. Here are the assumptions as I read them. 1. There's a noticeable lack of well-protected moderate routes in the Inland Northwest. Almost everything can be top roped in the Spokane area. If you have half a clue using pro most can be lead safely and have been dozens of times or they were bolted some time ago for the same reasons under discussion here. Well protected is the definition under discussion. I figure anything with a bolt at my feet while clipping the next is over protected. I figure a bolt at my feet as well as my waste while clipping the next is a sick joke. Gotta remember I built some of the first walls in the area so a gym isn't another world to me. Just never thought that gym climbers would have a stunted growth pattern when they ventured outdoors. 2. Some of the early routes were poorly protected because there no cordless roto-hammers then. Not true...although a pain in the ass a lot of guys were willing to drill, Peterman for one. I wasn't often. Too lazy. Drills were around if you wanted them before you think. I think I even borrowed your's once from Keith Of course some one chopped the same bolts next day. 3. Other routes were top roped into submission, then sparsely protected to protect the hologram of a bold ascent. Guess it depends on your term for submission. Larry went way out of his way to add bolts to his lines, and mine for that matter, but they were well thought out, and yes even sporty, if you didn't climb at that standard. But you were also free to top rope the route into submission before attempting any lead. I did just that to some extent on Wings. It was one of the first bouldering type climbs doen in Spokane and very hard for its day if your were under 6'. But I don't believe Larry did the same on any of his climbs. Larry also didn't show at Dishman till 7 or 8 years after I had been clibing there virtually all by myself. More top ropes, less bolts was the unspoken motto...lead it when you thought you could with the protection in place. You want to hang, do it on a top rope. It wasn't just unspoken, I also suggested it in person. Guilty as charged on some of my lines. Larry never bothered to add bolts to them. I never dissed anyone for adding bolts to Wings, C/S, Rock Star or anything else as it was done in moderation looking for safe climbing. You can bet it took a few tr's to get Wings...hence the name and then it was lead...once that I know of before the additional bolts were added. But that shouldn't surprise anyone who has been on it. Even talked Larry out of adding another bolt on Rock 106. But that was because it was a better lead without. But if there was anyone blowing up his ego it was me at Dishman not Peterman pre '90. I just climbed and figured out how to do things wihtout taking a hammer to the rock. I would have continued to TR there before I would chip or add the number of bolts that are there now. Hell everyone climbed harder that I did. I just wanted it more. Sound familiar 4. Either way, a poorly protected route sits idle. Didn't see any leading going on the other day..typical top roping again. No surprize some of the climbs are hard. Not a lot of folks climbing past 5.10, now or then. I doubt that is going to change, ever. Add difficult leads to that equation and it is really going to slow down the traffic. Not sure that is aleways a bad thing. Marty, same reason I thought you would be the first to condemn bolt lines, chopped holds and glue ons. Last I checked it was the good climbers that set the example by their actions for others to follow. I was surprised by the chipping. 5.A few routes at Dishman have been reequiped and become instantly popular. Really? Not what I saw or was told. 6. A couple others were promptley chopped due to the remote intergenerational tryanny of climbing ethics. The original bolts you added @ DH in the early '90s were chopped I suspect because the bolts were not deemed required to be safe or sane. I saw the first 2 you added to Larry's climbs early on. You were wrong adding them, then. Adding more now is out of line too, short of replacing old bolts. 7. Funny how the old 5.12s (the limit at the time) were well protected and the 5.9s weren't. I tried to explain this once. Pat Mahoney did Slave Labor and Body Scarfer, IIRC. His bolt placements weren't Larry's or mine. Different ethics and mind set. But Pat also lead most of the .11s at Dishman on the original pro that was in place. No one was going to argue that he didn't have the right to place the amount of pro he thought was needed for his routes. Unlike Kurt Shannon, no one questioned him about actually climbing the lines. We saw him do them (and other like them), take falls on them (including a 40' deck with my bad Road Kill) and then red point them. Both routes went to the top of the rock. Hard to give a guy shit on that, no matter how he did it. Not the kind of climbing I like but good routes IMO and yes very well protected. Don't miss the big picture is my take on it. 8. It's possible that this tyranny will end when certain old schoolers make that last hike to the easy chair, or realize that Minnehaha isn't ElCap. Minni isn't El Cap. But neither is Dishman a gabage dump for climbers. I expect "us" to treat it better. 9. Dying is more more nobly done in the mountains, not in Spokane. Dying is seldom noble and usually just messy. No reason to die climbing if you are up to the challenge. If you are worried about dying, hang a top rope, you'll live longer and not trash perfectly good climbs with chipped holds, a line of bolts or plastic bolted to the wall.

"I would like to come to some sort of compromise with the bolt thing." Marty, I have your number I'll call again. Quick seach on google will get you mine. I knew some of what was happening around Spokane years ago and choose to ignore it figuring everyone gets their due. And you were staying off my climbs and out of "my" areas. Long sense lost any thought of Vantage being one of "my" areas. New area developements are a freebe IMO. You live with what you sew. What I see is that "you guys" aren't climbing hard enough if you have to chip. You have your own ideas I know. That's fair. Dishman is shit from a number of recent efforts. None of them mine. Your guide book does support some pretty radical anarchy. Better the discussion here in public, than a breaker bar and cement patch in my hand.(the later being my first choice from the intial Dishman experience last week) We look at the world differntly when it comes to climbing. The rub is where our different ideals clash in a common use area. We do need a compromise, on that we agree. From Marty's INLAND NW ROCK CLIMBS 2001: "There's a noticeable lack of well-protected moderate routes in the Inland Northwest. Some of the early routes were poorly protected because there no cordless roto-hammers then. Other routes were top roped into submission, then sparsely protected to protect the holgram of a bold ascent. Either way, a poorly protected route sits idle. A few routes at Dishman have been reequiped and become instantly popular. A couple others were prompley chopped due to the remote intergenerational tryanny of climbing ethics. It's funny how the old 5.12s (the limit at the time) were well protected and the 5.9s weren't. We must remember that one man's 5.13 is another's 5.8 and protect routes accordingly. It's possible that this tyranny will end when certain old schoolers make that last hike to the easy chair, or relaize that Minnehaha isn't ElCap. Dying is more more nobly done in the mountains, not in Spokane." You make several assumptions in that paragraph Marty. From my personal perspective all of them wrong.

nice...

Actually I am not. But I can see how you might think I was. Dishman is an eye sore. Lots of damage and lots of "aids" added to climbers wanting to make the climbing easier in every avenue, mentally and physically. D-H/Loving arms on the other hand, you are hard pressed to see where the rock has been altered. I haven't grabbed any gear or weighted pro on D-H/LA. So no clue on the yard bolt. Pin scars on a natural line and may be a few extra hammers blows isn't a piece of plastic or first knuckle chipped incuts on a blank wall. If I missed something on Davis-Holland/ LA let me know. Certainly could have been chipped intentionally at the traverse. I couldn't tell/didn't notice when I climbed past. Lots of climbs have been altered over the years. I can give a list longer than this thread if I wanted to look. But pin scars aren't intentionally made to be holds (and if they were it was generally condemned) So sure it is degrees that count. D-H/LA is a degree most accept as are most of the harder cracks in the valley. A line of artificail holds up a blank piece of virgin granite is when I say..."whoa"... too far. That is the case of the 60' of granite at Dishman.

Dishman and Lovin Arms? No comparison.. Bad analogy IMO. GW? What you want to chip the rope to 5.7? Chipping boils down to one of two things..either can climb it or you can't. If chipping is acceptable then no one gets to climb better than the chipper. Pretty sad. What Marty misses is he gets to climb a few .12s because I didn't chip. Poor bastards coming up have to climb some shitty .12 because Marty and pals were egotistical pussies and chipped.

Sorry Dude that is BS. The routes under discussion were simply altered to make them easier for the climbers invloved. This "community service" nonsense is BS. Like you said they aren't .14/.15s. But lets be clear, numbers don't justify trashing the resource. There was never a reason to do the damage that was done except to claim some lame FA by chipping and bolting on holds. Marty suggested these actions in his guide book and got a good number of followers to follow his examples and act upon his advice.

Gezzzzeeeeeeeeeeeeeeus. Marty if you can look me in the face and tell me Dishman isn't the posterchild for a "overboard" I'd be amazed. It is overboard in every way. Using some common sense and retro bolting within reason is one thing...the mess at Dishman is another. You don't need a climbing resume to know that bolting a 5.8 crack is pretty lame. Or that plastic needs to stay in the gym and off the rock. Or that chopping (the correct term for the size of holds on Dishman not chipping) should stay at the wood pile.