billcoe

If I might field this one: All those bolts lead to more people which will lead to every envrionmental issue you bring up. Next....! ______________________________________________________________ Kevin, he's not talking about doing IB and not clipping the bolts, but in fact heading to that area and doing a route, sans bolts. You might cross the IB line here or there, roughly follow it there, but basically shoot for the JH line, which will invarably be somewhat different as it will have to be following natural features. If you had climbed IB earlier, you will be well versed in potential variations and lines to look at the second trip up.... oh, the first part was already answered, guess I need to type faster.

And to further complete that anology, these people learned how to drive a bumpercar in a closed track and just moved into freeway driving with people who learned, practiced and worked at driving, and now - in order to stop the car freeway clusterf*, it appears that some random authority may soon step forward and decide that NOBODY will be allowed to drive so that they can prevent a few cars driven by these shitassed drivers to keep from sliding off the road and killing the occupants.

In response to do Dwayner and Pope still climb. Well Don, first of all, my name is Bill. It's Bill Coe. Not pal. You asked so I will explain it. All I ever see you post is pictures of clowns or PeeWee Herman. Now, don't mistake me, when you're on, which is frequently, you are so damn funny I almost pee on myself. You've got a rich sense of humor and deep intellect. I'm pretty sure you'd be awesome company out and about. BUT, since you asked, except for a few pics of the Don early years, I don't recall seeing pics of you climbing, while just above in this thread even I linked to a pic of Kevbone and I at the rock just 2 days ago. I see pics from Kevin climbing all over, good ones too, and I see TR's I've done of Yos and Red Rocks last few months, but not of yours. You have a big footprint on these kinds of threads however....

They still climb? _________________________________________________________ I agree. The Forest Service did look at this whole issue, evaluated it, and then put it behind them. We should too.

I gotta blog? Where is it I want to read it:-) I put this one in spray yesterday, I'm the dude in blue with the grey 15 year old sale tennis shoes which say, "made in America" on them. (I stocked up on closeouts and wore the identical pair until I could see flesh) My neighbor was just pointing out these shoe facts to me while laughing his ass off at my frugality as he's a designer for Nike. spray pic Regards to all Bill BTW thanks High, but it's OK. I think this has been a good discussion of viewpoints and Joseph and I are getting along fine despite the way it appears here, and have a parallel e-mail private discussion going on another subject (unrelated) which is very amicable, I hope that we are able to give our honest viewpoints in this way (amicably) on this thread, cause at the end of the day, JH and I will be belaying each other, and I intend to give, and hope to get, a great belay. Realistically, some of you guys out there argueing for leaving it be seem to be making some of their points for them.

No that is nothing like this instance. Nobody was speeding. Shit, these guys had a Forest Service map which showed this area to NOT be in the Fr*kin wilderness area. AFTER the fact, with some lunitic on their ass about it, the FS looked at this very instance and then said that they made a mistake on the map. As far as the rap bolting part goes, I understood that part of the route was bolted on rappel, part not.Would re-boltiing it, on lead, with hand drills, make you dudes happy? Cause that is allowed here. If some of us were to go up - pull out every powerdrill driven bolt and re-do it with a hand drill so that we are within your ethical beliefs and confines, is that OK with you all? Nobody was speeding here. ___________________________________________________________ High on rock, these guys will not change their opinions just because our identities are all out there. These are deeper issues. __________________________________________________________ Don, you never responded to my Mt. Rainer development issue I raised, unable to talk about it?

Same except for 1984. Great movie, I still listen to the music and remember....

Hmmm, I did something similar except I had finished making salsa with about 3 or 4 hot chilis and went to go pee. 15 min later I was still squatting in the cold water I'd run in the bathtub and my wife was howling with laughter once I'd explained what all the frantic activity was about.......but thats so far down the list of dumb things I've done that I don't even number it.

First, a few points: let me say that I agree with Doug, however I think the term "Fascist" is a bit rough and not fair.... the intent, ie that a bunch of strident Elmer Gantrys ( link for a definition ) who think they are so damn right that they want to cram their view down our throat...well, thats the essence of it for me. I'm always suspicius when an individual feels they know what is so ethically pure and so stridently tries to convince the rest of us that we MUST do as they say. No matter if that person is a TV preacher, a Republican or a brother climber. I do understand that viewpoint which those who oppose the route have when they take that very statement above and apply it to those of us who want the route left alone. I get that. I just happen to disagree with this being an ethical breach of such signifigance that the world is about to stop spinning. On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being a huge new condo development which will require blasting the cliffs for rock to be put in Yosemite which will also heat with the drilled oil they just found under the Merced being a 9.9, this is a .02. Really. If that. My opinion anyway. Raindawg, you can't even see a bolt on the damn thing in that picture I posted. As far as your assertion that you want it left like Rainer, ...are you now proposing roads and lodges now like Rainier has or are you advocating for the removal of those massive manmade intrusions in that area?? Cause they made a hell of a big mess up there with f*en bulldozers, road graders, cranes and other heavy equipement and as far as that attitude goes, they had all that equipment up there again very recently to put massive manmade things back in place when mother nature tried to remove it, they were using that very same heavy equipment that they put it in with, and that is signifigantly bigger stuff than a battery powered handdrill. I didn't hear a peep from you about that and you can see the "trash" from a many miles away too, unlike these bolts in question which you are screaming like a harpie about yet you cannot even see them in a close-up picture. So give me a heads up on when you are going to take on the NPS for the major infractions of your trust by putting in these major projects all over the place like Rainer and Yosemite. Because your statement "I certainly draw the line at its intrusion into the mountains and wilderness." certainly applies here in a signifigantly larger way than the bolts on IB. So, good day to YOU as well SIR. __________________________________________________________________ I think it's an admirable thought and effort JH. Furthermore, Kevin is still climbing pretty strong, he'd be a strong partner for that try. (If opposites really do attract..couch, cough) However: it could very well be that you are following a natural line of weakness which romps left when the origonal route romps right, that you are up on a slab........in the middle of nowhere....wayyy the hell up there... So are you stuck on a ledge unable to downclimb way above your last piece of pro waiting for a rescue, or did you bring a bolt kit? If so: Do you propose to install your own bolts, with a hand drill to get off? Completely within all existing rules, regs, handbills, suggestions and ethics. It that answer is yes, I can assure you based on what I have read from at least 2 others posting above that you will find yourself at severe odds and with strong oppostion about that. In fact, if you put up a GFA to the top, and are forced to put in only 2 bolts for pro on a 200' 5.11 friction pitch wherein you are looking at sure death if you do not do so, they will advocate chopping your fine and proud efforts. Would you feel that those 2 bolts, put in on stance and hand-drilled, are justified? From what I've seen of their writings, I do not think they would. Furthermore, would you hand drill your own rap anchors (and possibly belay stations if you are not on route) or use existing ones? Look, like all of you older guys, and I've been climbing since 1972, I do not like to see climbing be turned into a risk-free gym type environment and take away what attracts me to it with the mental challenges I enjoy. I do not see 80-100 ' runouts on a long challenging route as encouraging that, and in fact this is a dangerous route by many accounts. "Sport climbing" is where the adventure is taken out and replaced by safety. Sport routes by definition are closely bolted. This is not a "sport route". It is just a bolted route. Should an individual or 2 head up there with the intent to remove the pro, I would highly recommend NOT telling ayone and NOT getting caught, because it would make that individual a pariah in the eyes of the community. This polorization and the anger it incurs would not be a good thing for anybody in my view. Sometimes chopping efforts are recognised as ligitament, IMO this wouldn't be felt to be by most climbers. I'm done laying my thoughts out, I understand your opinion, I do not share it. You might further consider ....when people like Off White and myself do not agree with you, people climbing a long and as pure, well - you might consider your position a bit further. Regards to you all Bill

Not the best photog though, as you know he took that one of you:-) ! The ones he took of me were hideous. I look fat, old and bald. I'm thinkin, Who the F* is that? Jim yesterday under cover. I gotta go get out of the house, later dudes.

Bumped into Kevbone yesterday as he was heading past us to crank an 11a (extreme off the couch cause he's got a lil one now) 10 min. before it started raining. (Larry Jennings also in pic with the helmet, I don't think he trusted me to not toss rocks onto his head:-) ) After getting down and huddling under an overhang for @ 20 min, we finally headed over to make sure they were OK. They'd finished that one and were toproping a harder one to the right and were still there as we scooted out to try and find some dry inside the car. Hola Kev! ps, I think Kev is doing that classic T.M. Herbert move where you flail with yer hands while vividly describing the next move on your last horror show.

Damn, I can't wait to see what he thinks of Popes buddy Dwayner when he meets him. NOT! Hey, slow news day? Where'd Paris go? I heard Kansas is doing the Paris quarter now.

Ahhh, and now we hear from one of the couple of climbers I noted above in my post. You are welcome to your opinion even if it is wrong. And good day to you as well, Sir.

You need to realize that you are speaking only for yourself here and maybe a couple of others. Not for the hundreds, perhaps thousands of appreciative climbers. Your feelings are as an individual, and with a viewpoint that is in fact clearly in the minority and a small one at that. You believe that because YOU feel this way, it is the Gods honest truth. But that is a delusion you have and one which I do not share. Again, you need to realize that you are speaking only for yourself here. Your feelings are as an individual, and with a viewpoint that is in fact clearly in the minority and a small one at that. You believe that because YOU feel this way, it is the Gods honest truth. But that is a delusion you have and one which I do not share. No apology is needed. You need to realize that you are speaking only for yourself here. The community is appreciative of having a stellar long route. You are wrong Joseph. It is an "opinion" you have. I do not share your "opinion", nor do about 90% of all other climbers I'd imagine. If Harding had listened to the "Agencies and Authorites" El Cap might still be off limits to all climbers. In my "opinion" none of your remarks hold up to scrutiny, as they are only your "opinion". If it is true that as a community we should reach consensus before we do such an radical act as removing the protection on an existing route, or even changing single bolt on any route. If that is truly the case, then this needs to go a significantly longer distance via discussion only to reach that consensus. You are a good and descent person Joseph, but you might entertain the idea that you are wrong in your opinion, and that everybody else, who wants it to be left alone and in place, is right. That is the way I feel abou it, and o matter how many times you repeat your opinion, you will not change the way I think on it. BTW: this is the way this route looks. Photo Dave Burdick. Pretty f*en sweet looking.

I have faith in your ability to think this one through on your own.

Well spoken pagetop Matt: In fact, "chopping" the route and having it put in again is essentially showing the "authorities" that we are truly just weak spirited children who cannot play well in the same sandbox and need them to step in with their guidance, authority and rules. F them. I pee in your beer Raindawg. Leave the route alone is my stong vote for that reason. Leaving it as is will not "encourage" others to so the same.

Oh oh Braceing for hard left turn helmet discussion....... Nice video!

Actually she is but not sure if you would want to date a chick that can climb harder than you. ZING....OUCH! Hey, Kevbone has an insult thread already goin' right now in spray!

Yeah, I don't understand those guys. They want it to be quiet, then they do a guidebook..WTF is that all about? Given how hard everything is out there, and how long it takes to get there, and the high skill level set along with the roughness, athletisim and beating your body just takes generally out there, I suspect you could place ads in climbing magazine and it still won't be overun with people.

I fuck like old people climb. slow and infrequently

Touch base with the hound. Better company can't be found. How to rip the living shit out of yer flesh with the hound link JH, check yer email.

Pairs well with pink lycra

Whoh, that sounds serious dude. Been drinkin out of the Columbia again? BTW, Bryan (powderhound) Geoff, Sean (Acacia), and Ujhan were representin strong, yo ! Great time, a good pump for all I think.

Well don't forget the practical exams in the evenings John! _________________________________________________ I see that.....hmmmm...that thing belay or just keep ya warm when it's raining outside the tent?

You bet Sean. Crap, all the strong pups will be there today. representin Wheres J. Freih?