billcoe

They fear we are heading here...but the fact that they bolted a route on the side of the building here in Europe in no way changes the difficulty or adventure of climbing the Walker Spur or the North Faces of the Matterhorn, Eiger or many other routes in the alps. The fact that Verdon has some amazing bolted limestone routes negatively changes what for them exactly? Easy enough to avoid if one prefers something else or another style of climbing. Just not going climbing there seems easy enough. I just don't get it.

Ride the bandwagon, "denalidave". Take the low road. I've added you to the list....done with you. (Congratulations for being in the midst of "distinguished company". Perhaps I can paraphrase for you Don: your agreement lacks substance compared to mine, thus resulting in the Denali Dave comment: "Go Lil Dawg, go" I already told you that a bolted route is more of a leave no trace ethic than ANY hiking trail in the world. I agree that bolts should be used as a last resort by the way. Now stop being so self-centered and selfish Don. Take care

Dude...you're very needy. Do you really think that responding to your antagonistic posts is my priority? Sorry, I'm working. And on top of that, half of the time you act like you want to be my pal and the other half you're pissing on me. (or more like 1/3rd, 2/3rd's). I ain't got time for the drama and I'm not interesting in playing "the game". So, contact me some other time if you want to be nice. aloha, - don Well, the only reason I'm even hanging around today is because I'm so trashed from installing 24 bolts on the first pitch of a new route at Cathedral Formation yesterday. There's no cracks there so I don't expect you to ever show up. It's some great great climbing. I'm so beat that a buddy called this am to go lap an easy crack route and I was too tired. That and the bathtub is leaking and my wife wants it fixed. You want to see pictures? Of course you do. This is @ 3/4 of the way up the first pitch. There's another @ 200' of cliff or so above this. The belay is @20' just over the hump of rock above the climber in this pic. I'm counting the 2 holes for the anchor, there was really only 21 bolts on the route. Here's the anchor and there's one more 1/2 x 6-1/4 higher for a redirect for the belay/1st piece 2nd pitch. Look, I climbed with a great guy for 25 years solid and we disagreed about all kinds of shit. Lots more than this little tempest in a teapot. Even the American irrigation system and federal Bureau of Reclamation involvement thereof raged deeply between us, for instance, and it never ever got in the way of us climbing together and drinking a beer afterwards, nor does it change that I was right and he was wrong (just like in this case with you as well LOL), yet we examined and discussed our opposing views for many long hours on trips. I'm not advocating grid bolting, but bolts have their place. I was thinking that in this case, the best example of why you're full of shit beans is seen at Smith Rock. One of the best routes in this state and my Smith favorite is Zebra/Zion. 4 great pitches of predominantly crack. When this was led, there were no trails on the ground to access it, and you needed a raft to get across the river in the spring if you wanted to climb. Later, when the bridge and trails were put in, some folks bolted some lines to the left. Those routes are close together, 5 gallon buckets, 10 gallon buckets etc etc etc. For myself, I've done them, but generally don't enjoy the climbing: I'd rather climb cracks than bolted faces so I almost always walk past unless a buddy is climbing and wants to talk, and then perhaps I'll lap something to be social, hang out and visit. But it's always crowded there and they are short little routes. It's crowded because that is what OTHERS like to climb. Not me, as short little bolted faces are unappealing ascetically, but OTHERS. However in no way of any sort does the "grid bolted" newer routes change the fact that you or I can walk right up to Zion: best damn route in the State, with our gear racks and climb it. All your opposition to those who enjoy those bolted routes shows everyone else here is an intolerance of others and a self-centered selfishness on your part. The park is for peoples enjoyment, and 90 percent of them do. When they put in a trail here or in the gorge it's so people can better enjoy it. They won't change park policy just because you don't like it. I'm speaking only for Smith on the bolts. As other have said, different areas have different traditions as locals have evolved them and we should respect local tradition. Beacon is a park as well, and the cracks are so close together that bolts on aretes would often have a materially negative effect on the crack that is 2-3 feet away. So the traditions, mentality, and in fact actual policy has developed differently. That's a good thing. For you to take what you want and blanket it for everywhere is just wrong. The bottom line is the fact that you get your panties in a bunch and don't like it is just too damn F*ing bad for you. Stop being so damn selfish and self-centered. ps, Lil Hitler says send the bear with the rainbows over cause he want's to do nasty things to her. BAD lil Hitler, BAD!

Where's Drew to claim the pagetop? Maybe he's smarter than the rest of us and is out climbing instead of yammering senseless things online. Since Dawg seems to be avoiding discussing my response to his post, I'm left reflecting if it might be time to post a few more Lil Dawg pics? Of course the answer is self-evident to all:-) What Feck says about the ivy is true. Bolts are a total NON-event and NO-issue and not just in relation to these other things. Once the Ivy starts hitting some of the established Doug Fir Forests the debate will be radically shifting from a few inert, non-threatening, no-issue in fact environmentally friendly bolts to discuss invasive Zebra Mussels and English Ivy costing us millions and millions of dollars. In either case, bolted routes are more leave no trace than any leave no trace hiking trail. PERIOD. Regards to all Bill Oh, this is for Dawg: His namesake at work. 1/2-13 x 6-1/4 Stainless Steel ICC rated Wedge Anchor. Torquing to 53 foot lbs. (50-60 foot lbs is the spec for 1/2" diameter wedge anchors, at 53, if the wrench breaks at 53 and you are mid-yard, the carry through/extra few inches of pull will keep you under 60) Voila! Ready for the yellow horde/locust/buffalo invasion.

No man...when it's about climbing, it's fair game...when it comes to one's personal life, it shouldn't be on the table. I was under the impression that on this site (Cascadeclimbers.com) pulling others trip reports and climbing pictures and putting them in spray to make fun of them was out of bounds. What gives me this impression was the tongue lashing Kevbone got from Porter when he did it not that long ago. ps, did you read my last diatribe Don? I've read all of yours and think I have a good response to you.

to a good time, perfect weather, no cancer for anyone and an awesome fun summit day for you both! Watch the loose rocks knocked from those above you, Ujahn was up there last week on the std route midweek and gave me that report.

I had that covered @ page 2 trying to calm lil Hitler down as he showed up and wanted to ban Don. Leave no trace isn't really what the issue is for Don anyway.

We might need an upgrade.

Thanks Dick. So true. It reminds me of the firestorm that Mike and Erik caused on this site when on the first ascent of Mox Peak (no bolts) a bunch of people were aghast that they had the termidity to have a campfire to try and dry out after being rained on in the wilderness. I'd like to point some things out which I believe. Bolting isn't anything akin to wiping out the Buffalo. Bolting routes will lead to more routes, not less. The fact is that even if there were no bolts anywhere there would still be route exploration and eventually you have less "new" routes to go explore. The route exploration will have netted some new stuff to climb and expanded what is available. This is particularly true where there is a dirt covered cliff that has some loose boulders and dirt tossed off so that climbing there becomes ...wait for it..."safer"…..gasp. I don't see it as a "consumable" thing, but as a good thing to have more places to climb. So as far as use of bolts being the extinction of the Buffalo, I don't buy it. Just our presence and innate human desire to explore will lead to these places being hunted down, found and climbed in. That’s how we roll as humans. There will be less to explore in our kids generation, just like we have less to explore in our times vs. our parents. Yet they will have many more places to go climb, and plenty of adventure in doing so as long as existing routes, like your Menopause, do not get bolts tossed into them by those who follow. Should we then stop ALL new routes, bolts or not, so that our kids can have some adventure? Speaking for myself, I don't think so. Last night I was reading a story about a new paving project in the Columbia River Gorge specifically designed to allow hiker access. ON PUBLIC LAND!!!!(emphasis for Don) They were PAVING a road so as to exclusively enable hiking, biking and access. True dat: read it here: http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_080609_news_columbia_gorge_trail.b5c1dbf6.html?npc I not only do not shrink in horror over this but I think this is an awesome thing. I've seen parts of the Simon Benson Military road through there that have totally disappeared in 30 years of non-use. Sort of like the jungle just grows over it and reclaims it. I don't fear man bulldozing a cut and blasting some rock. This is huge impact, and a huge project which will bring thousands and thousands of people, a lot of them driving in from out of the area and other states. They'll be walking all over native plants, tracking in dirt from other locations, shitting and pissing all over the woods and having a big impact. Yet they will be enjoying the woods and the trail, and the impact once the trail is in is not that large. Compare it to the bolt issue of a few climbers who want to climb a few routes that do not have cracks in it. Tiny piece of inert metal that you can't wee from a short distance away, and climbers on rock, not trampling the plants which are prolific except in a narrow path. My photos below show no plants will be trampled. Significant difference of scale, yet they are in many ways similar. It is a lot of time, planning and money to do this paving work. Do you all oppose this as well? I don't, and I'm asking for the same thing that the hikers and bikers are getting, access to the wilderness and some special areas. I don't need 73 miles of it like I think that trail alone is getting, I'm talking about 50 feet of cliff there there, 300 feet there and it will impact of a few climbers only. Will this paved road lead to the extinction of the Buffalo as well? Yes, in the sense that guys like Hal Meyderdyck want to just go wander in the bush alone off trail for weeks or months will have fewer places to go walkabout in the wilderness. Is this the end of civilization like the use of bolts some of you compare it too? No, there's so much wilderness in the gorge which will never be paved and it would be crazy to suggest that this paved road will just lead to other paved roads for hikers until the entire gorge is paved. Same argument applies to bolts as well and the use of bolts increases the amount of climbs available, not decreases it. Climbers, like the hikers in the above linked story, will be able to enjoy new places and interesting differences in rock texture and locations. As long as folks don't go add bolts to existing routes, and they try and minimize the use of them I don't and will never agree to the objections people have with them. I speak only for myself. I don't disagree that paving a large and long new hiking trail in the gorge won't bring more people into hiking, it will. As will bolts bring more new climbers. Yet we can go hike in downtown Portland on a weekend and see few others on the Wildwood Trail, and the same thing applies to climbing. There is a rare party on Free Lunch or Zebra Zion, 2 long 5.10s at Smith, despite the fact that nearby bolted routes are swarming. I suspect that anyone who thinks that there isn't room for it all just needs to get out more cause as near as I can tell THERE'S ROOM FOR IT ALL X2 !!!! regards! Oregon Granite, lots of it, seen here in leave no trace mode. Andesidic welded tuff-conglomerate below, I dare you to find any trace Don. BTW, bet I can find a trace where they added the new bathroom/road/picnic area in Yosemite and the paved hiking trail in the gorge and maybe from Google earth. Location of climber on above photo noted below @ 25 metres. Where's the traces you are discussing? I can't see it from here, let alone from that pic of the base of that route. Your 600' rope would not reach the bottom if you wanted to toprope this, so forget that idea. There is less trace here than any hiking trail or campground that you care to show me, so I call bullshit on your leave no trace philosophy argument. Started another new route today and finished the first pitch. @ 56 meters/190 feet of 5.7-5.9 with 24 protection bolts and 5 belay bolts. So 29 bolts total, out at Cathedral Formation today. Route name: The Dragons Spine. Do you want to see pictures? Yes you do yes you do!!! Good Great stuff. It is like nothing else in Oregon, it's frikan amazing!! Any of you want to sit at home in your dark little rooms or at work in your cubicals and pound your keyboard and not want to climb stuff like this? Ain't me! Do you have any clue on how good this is? Not only do I know you don't, but your opinion doesn't mean sh*t to me Don so lets ask the Sofa King. "Hey Sofa King: is this shit great?" (Sofa King replys) "NO! THIS CLIFF IS SOFA KING GREAT!!! " As far as you wanting to know where it is, you'll get that info with everyone else as I plan on sharing with all so my brothers in arms can enjoy this super location and fantastic climbing. SO FUK*ING GREAT IS RIGHT ! Incredible stuff and I'm sitting at the base in a cushy Adirondack chair and looking out (past the cliff behind me and the one to my immediate front)to 3 distinct other cliffs through binoculars THAT ALL HAVE DIFFERENT ROCK FORMATIONS! Totally and radically different. Cliffs everywhere and not a climber anywhere but us and we're having a great time....I need a shower now, cya!

Yeah, I use to be a nasty, mouthy lil shit who loved to fist fight all the time. All the time. I'd fight anyone, the biggest dude of any group, at the drop of a hat: and I'd drop the hat. I don't know where I went wrong. Got your message though, so I'll try right now...hmmmm, fingers aren't working ....give me a moment to compose some nasty crap.... ... ... Shit, this is tough...... OK, here we go. Prole, I've noticed that your posts have become much more informative, well thought out and humorous lately....wait just a damn minute.......this ain't working at all........let me consider it. ... ... Well, I guess in the back of my mind, I know that for us all, the time we are blessed with here on earth is so short: a virtual eyeblink. What is left here when we are Dust in the Wind is the things we were able to do for others and what we might have meant to them. Mostly person to person, but also our words like on this site. The memory of what we were remains with those who are left. Tomorrow, if I die trying the GFA of the Old Witch or a 10 ton boulder crushes me on the Beekeeper route I want you all to come to my house, drink Ujahns fantastic beer, shed a tear, share a story and a laugh, and hug and care for each other with the common knowledge that those things we share in common are stronger and more important than those which would pull us apart. Then move on and live your lives with the richness and warmth we all want: with joy and happiness. ? Shit, I need to work on your request, it ain't easy. Let us all hug our kids and make the world a better place.

Based on his response I don't think he read what I was referring too. As always, basking in your wit and intelligence Ivan. PS, stop scaring 5 Ks. Regards Bill Did someone say Dawg?

This is a radically different position than I have thought you earlier exposed. I had thought you had earlier postulated a NO BOLT philosophy. My apologies, I obviously misread something. May I also add: those who attack your profession do so because they are not able to intellectually formulate a valid argument against your bolt position so they attack you personally instead: in lieu of an actual discussion on the subject. This only shows that they either have weak ideas or weak minds. I will admit to you that I found Ivans point interesting and humorous, i.e. that you spend your life/vocation unearthing, preserving, cataloging (and glorifying?) some of the largest scale destruction and manipulation of rock by humans ever seen on this earth. Big respect for what you do for a living from me. I'm not attacking you at all over it, but you have to admit that the comparison of your attacks on bolting, which as you can see from my earlier pictures of the Apron bolt replacement project, the bolts cannot be seen except from close up and often you can't even see the next one from the one you just clipped: vs some of the Egyptian "royal works" projects visible from the next planetary object over -is a stark and interesting contrast? Have you ever considered or reflected on this contrasting thought Don? Regards to all: For myself, there are places where bolted lines are not appropriate at all. And many of those areas have taken steps to control it. However, places like El potrero chico have no cracks and great cliffs and great climbing. For myself, I'm glad there are routes there and places like that. I find it interesting that uber clean/ethical guys like Kurt Smith, who showed up at Smith in the 80s and did a ground up FA of a 5.12 to slap the locals in the face over their thoughts on rap bolting, recognized this and later did many rap bolted lines at El Potrero. You can't even see the bolts unless you take a close up shot. I don't understand the horror over having routes here myself.

The bolt question is basically everyone's opinion and opinion only. Unfortunately we all seem to share the common trait that we are correct and all we have to do is keep hammering others and they will at some point, if we persist, see the light..... news flash: NOT!

Ditto on the book Rod mentions: Ghost Wars. I'm 3/4 of the way into it and it is an eye opener. Thinking good thoughts here - wish you well Mike!!

Fixed that for you. I own up to voting for Bush once as I couldn't vote for the son of a traitor, the race was close enough that I voted for Kerry the 2nd time. Who saw the rise of extreme Tax and Spend republicans? Reagan supports perhaps?

Interesting thread revival Porter. Vis-a-vis this earlier salient point.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_nkorea_journalists_held;_ylt=AnY1uukIu2rI9kUTVnRk5hWs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTM4dWU2MmplBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMDkwODA1L2FzX25rb3JlYV9qb3VybmFsaXN0c19oZWxkBGNwb3MDMQRwb3MDMgRwdANob21lX2Nva2UEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yeQRzbGsDY2xpbnRvbjJqb3Vy Now commence endless speculation on if Bill Clinton would have made the trip if they'd been dudes. Bless them all. Free at last. Some things in life are more important than our petty concerns.

Off... Sport-climbers have demeaned the climbing experience by plastering the rock with artificial accessories rather than using bolts VERY sparingly or avoiding them all together if a route can be top-roped, etc. or better yet, just leaving it alone. So if I'm deprived of a "first ascent experience", it's because I'm appalled by the callous lack of restraint in bolting that has become the status quo. By the way, the Bacher-Yerian route is an excellent example of restraint in bolt usage. I suppose they could have made a sport ladder out of much of it but they didn't. Billcoe....I'm way busy....ain't got time for a rude pissing match right now so I'm spending my free three minutes responding to Off. Thanks Don, I'll wait for you to get a moment, I guess the horse made a miraculous recovery. Don, I guess my angst about your posts on this stems from your apparent believe that all bolts should be banned from public land. In Yosemite, they have taken the best land (on the flats of the valley) and opened it up like a park to 60,000 people every weekend. They built roads, a pizzeria, hotels, bars, stores, laundry rooms, showers, movie theaters and on and on. Many people come, like the great Galen Rowell said, and they enjoy it too. With people come impacts. Some of it is unavoidable and much of it is self-inflicted for no apparent reason, yet climbers leave less than other groups. I dare anyone to FIND a single bolt on the Glacier point pics I copied, and those pics were taken from a few feet away. You can't see few if any of them from the ground unless you walk right up to the rock, and even then damn few. Yet contrast that with the park as a whole: I could easily find you a massive building and road structures running willy nilly from a satellite picture taken from the stratosphere. So to me it seems wildly disingenuous for you to rant about how horrible bolts are, when you don't say or do shit about these other huge, massive and widespread environmental impacts to the best, most productive for wildlife, land in the park. Having bolts allows humans to travel vertical paths, and it's much less destructive, and certainly more fun and interesting, than paths on the ground that the park service proliferates for the very same reason: to allow people to recreate and enjoy the place. Truthfully, I like it all and that includes climbing bolted routes. I prefer gear routes, and long ones at that, but it's all good and I say that even though I suck at hard face climbs. Aid or free, bolts or gear or both: love it. Like others, sure it pisses me off when folks bolt where it's not needed. As Joseph said, a half pitch can and should often be left as a toprope, and on a cliff with 55-60 existing routes 90 percent of which take gear, why bolt the face 5' from a nice crack climb? Yet I have to agree with most of what Doug said as well. (hey, thanks for the invite too sir!) A via feratta is way different than a hard sport climb, and yet for many they are both fun to do. Go to Italy and tell me that place is tame, even after mega centuries of settlement, "development" and horribly destructive wars. For us, in the US - I think there are places where bolts are critically needed, and there are places where they are not only not needed but not wanted, and we need to be sensitive to the local prevailing ethic. Off said it as well with this one as well "where and when have sport climbers deprived you of the essential first ascent experience you crave, stolen from you the singular moment of discovery and uncertainty that a first ascent offers? " Regards to all: Oh, and Kimmo, I'd tie in with you any day, love your balance, maybe we need to take off up on that offer:-).

LOL!!! Nice call.

Mmmmmmmm, Dead Horse....mmmmmm Guess Don really didn't want to have this dialog after all then. He must know how F*ed up his position and logic really is. I should bow out and cease the discussion with a sport climbing picture by way of a finale but I'm too much of a gentleman. Wait, I'm a dick, here's the picture, all thats missing is 3 more bolts in the picture. No, must resist urge..........got to see what we're talkin about here: So I am a dick, but where's the ethical horror and tragedy here? Mmmmm, Dead Horse, mmmmmmm

Try and calm down and stay on task dude, she was acquitted it reads. Anyway, is that better than stealing her parents ashes and burning her house down? http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090804/ap_on_re_eu/eu_switzerland_novartis_attacks;_ylt=An3Ilvc63CXp_b24PQLQpbMPLBIF;_ylu=X3oDMTM1NDQzaGFrBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMDkwODA0L2V1X3N3aXR6ZXJsYW5kX25vdmFydGlzX2F0dGFja3MEcG9zAzEwBHNlYwN5bl9hcnRpY2xlX3N1bW1hcnlfbGlzdARzbGsDbm92YXJ0aXNhY3Rp "BERN, Switzerland – Drug maker Novartis AG said Tuesday that animal rights activists have stolen the ashes of its CEO's mother and set fire to his Austrian hunting lodge." _____________________________________________________________ we have a dawg question still outstanding.

What is a 2 bolt full length apron pitch? Sport or trad? How about the same pitch length on Glacier point apron with 3 pitons fixed? Is that "sport" or "trad"? Here's a pic of the lil Dawg to revel in while you consider these ideas. PS, Lil Dawg gets 14 holes per charge. But they are huge holes, 1/2 x 6-1/4" long. I can get a hole done in @ 8 seconds where the rock is soft. Longer for traditional basalt. Haha, "Trad" basalt. Like this one below in the city park rappel anchor which Lil Dawg was fired up to do. I had to hold him back he was so excited.

Huh? That lil waving character thing is naked? WTF! LOLZ

Still for Don

Heresy! It ain't about how "hard" one is that is important, I mean, ugly 3rd graders are out pulling me.......