Crackbolter

Bluegrass: Bill Monroe, Flatt & Scruggs, Doc and Merle Watson, Jerry Garcia with Old & In the Way (Peter Rowin, David Grisman, John Kahn, Vassar Clements), The Carter Family, Del McRory, John Hartford Rock: Neil Young, Eric Clapton, Allman Brothers, Bob Dylan, The Dead, Janis Joplin, Simon & Garfunkle Blues: Robert Johnson, Lead Belly, Pink Anderson

FF can service any down product regardless of manufacturer. Any pillow or comforter as well. Some items need double washing or an extra rinse because of the amount of down.

Feathered Friends can do it usually within 24 hours if you bring the bag to the factory located at 1119 Mercer Street in Seattle open 8am til 6pm M-F. The cost ranges from $15 to $25 depending on temp rating. Call 206-292-6292 for more info.

That reminds me, do you guys perfer Liters or cubic inches when referring to pack size? (i.e. backpack volumes, sleeping bag volumes, etc)

Giant Croquet!!! They use battering rams and wrecking balls.

If it is the same slab I've climbed, is it 55 degrees at the bottom and steepens out to 75 or 80 degrees towards the top? Has anyone bolted it yet? I remember climbing it and slinging a couple of trees and toping out to the right below the steep face. Like 5.6 maximum I think. It is about a mile from the middlefork trailhead and bridge crossing if it is the same one. I have a photo I can post tomorrow.

Banbury Greens just a few miles off the hwy just before you get to Penticton. Camping on grass and right next to the lake. Showers, good crappers and hot chicks. Plus a view of Skaha. Shady in the summer, $3 for all the firewood you can use, etc. Have fun! I friggen love that place! Oh yeah, make sure to stake your tent if you leave it (duh!) I saw a guy pitch his ten and leave his sleeping bag and clothes in it and it blew into the lake. When he got back the caretaker had hung up his stuff to dry but he had to borrow stuff from the caretaker for the weekend.

Was climbing at Smith last spring..overheard climber at the top of a route, "okay, take....lower." The female belayer yells, "wait! wait!....my harness belt just came undone!!!" Her harness was a black diamond alpine bod and the biner and device was only clipped into the lower leg loops which were held together by the plastic buckles. I was thinking well, either help the belayer now or help the dying climber later.

There isn't one set price for a custom order. You will need to specify what features you are looking for. Also, if you want to do business, please do it through private e-mail not the forum.

email me

You can't afford it Eric.

We could hook you up with one of 30 colors of Epic FF can also make the same sack for custom girths. Just can't make it with a pole. email me at customerservice@featheredfriends.com

Okay, what to do now? Who has $275,000 they can spare? Believe me, if I had it I would buy it and live in climbing, kayaking, flyfishing and skiing harmony forever!

Szay-toomuch-jackoffski, If you will, there are a few folks in Leavenworth who have been all too kind to open thier home to a few climbers but the term "wear out your welcome" is what comes to mind when I think about where to stay in Leavenworth every weekend. I really appreciate those who have let us park in their driveways or eat dinner with the family or better yet, let us sleep on the couch when it is puking snow outside. For the Leavenworth clan, for you...Thanks. You could poach the climbers parking lot but give it another year and they will be cracking down on it. You could also pull off at Mad Meadows or pull off somewhere up Mountain View Road but eventually the homes will be built around the bouldering area and climbing bums will be overrun by newlyweds. You are also correct that the Icicle is not the Valley, better yet it is the Canyon. Eventually it will need a nice place like Branbury Greens or Smith Rock SP for girls who like to shower after climbing and guys who need to shower after being in the mountains for a week. I think someone should buy the property and hire me to caretake the place. I would love to settle down in Leavenworth some day and if I can't do it now, I will settle for later. Having a place to provide campsites next to a few select climbing spots seems inviting. I think a developed private campground hosted by CLIMBERS would be the best thing that ever happened to the Icicle. They coiuld even charge a few dollars less than 8-mile CG and put them out of business. That place is overrated and hosted by the Parks and we all know how everyone feels about The Park Circus. my 2 cents.

exactly!

Hey, this is a fun topic. I love Marmot's gear until Arc 'Teryx started making waterproof and softshell jackets. I owned a Dryclimb jacket for 5 years and wore it almost every trip. I owned a waterproof jacket from Marmot for 4 years and loved it. This is also a great opportunity to educate the community on down products. By next year, you guys will have a master's degree in goose down products.

“Marmot is the largest down buyer in the climbing apparel industry. The buyers are able to purchace the vast majority of highest quality down from Eastern european farmers.” Beck is mistaken. Marmot is not the largest purchaser of down either in the US or in the World. Most of their down is supplied through China as a biproduct of the food industry. “: Marmot independantly tests every 16 pound shipment they receive, They test it in house, then also send it to an independant testing house. I've seen the test results from this; EVERY shipment tests out at 900 fill standards. Even Marmots 800 fill down tests out at 900 in the lab. NO OTHER manufacturer teste EVERY 16 pound shipment. One of the high end manufacturers recently went 18 months without independantly testing theirs.” I think Beck is mistaken. Every bag that is shipped to the manufacturer is tested. The bag could weigh 10 pounds or 40 pounds but regardless, the supplier tests the good down regularly. I don’t think manufacturers are ever required to test their down. Most actually choose not to since there is no industry standard requirements. “The down used by Marmot is NEVER compressed until the customer or store stuffs that bag into its stuff sack. The down is shipped to marmot, worked with, and shipped to stores NEVER having been stuffed. I don't believe any other manufacturer can claim this.” Every other manufacturer can claim to have never compressed their bags. Go to REI and tell us if Marmot bags are treated differently than any other manufacturer. Most bags are shipped in their storage sacks. If bags are shipped via UPS or FEDEX, they are always compressed including Marmot mail order in Bellevue. “The baffles in a marmot bag are filled with computer controlled fill equipment. This is NOT a bag stuffed by a seamstress with a yardstick and a dictate to "fill them full"; Marmot bags are so precisely filled that when comparing bag weights, your marmot bags differ very little in total weights.” It is easy to keep the down fill weights consistant. Take a box of down, put it on a scale and subtract the amount of down you need to fill a chamber. A fill chart has the calculation for each chamber and the total is always the same in the end. Most of the weight variances are from the fabric not the down. “Marmot bags offer continous baffle stitching; some High end manufacturers (no names) have semicontinous stitching of horizontal baffles. Saves cost, but This can allow down to shift in the bag, woah!” With high end down and light mummy bags, there is no unintentional shifting. Only when dealing with expedition bags will you need to have a cross block baffle to keep more down on the top and less under you. “Marmot bags in side profile, maintain their inches of loft down the length of the bag. Some high end manufacturers have differential fill, more loft up top, skimping on inches towards the footbox. Cheaper, but it's like having two different temperature bags.” Beck is mistaken again. Hop on Marmot’s website and look at a photo of their bag. The footbox and torso is always higher in loft than the rest of the bag. The footbox needs more down to insulate that poorly insulated part of your body. The torso and hood should have more loft because your body’s core needs to be insulated more than your legs. Loft is measured at the lowest part of the bag or in the area with the least amount of loft. “Also, Marmot down is guaranteed to have no "couchet" i.e. reused down. Marmot is the only manufacturer to be able to make this claim.” I have never heard of anyone reusing goose down for high end sleeping bags. “And for tech correctness, Down higher than 900 fill will not loft up even a flimsy fabric? Incorrect. Down is measured in a tube, with a weight placed in the top- of the cylinder. This weight is considerably heavier than 30d ripstop. The reason there is no 1000 fill down is the current industry testing standard maxes out at 900.” Mistaken again. Read my previous posts. I obtained this information from IGFA which posted a nice publication during the OIA industry standardization meeting at the Outdoor Retailer Show in January. All of the major manufacturers were in attendance. Here is a blurb for everyone… Origin You can tell very little about the down is a sleeping bag from outside the shell, other than the relative fill power that is evident in the loft. FTC regulations even allow a percentage of duck down in down labeled goose, and although goose down is potentially better than duck, the best duck down is better than mediocre goose down. Down processors buy down from all over the world, basing the purchase decision of quality, price, and maintaining a long term relationship. The down may then be mixed to meet standards required by a manufacturer. How is it obtained? Down is commonly described as coming from mature, cold climate geese. In truth the climate the goose is raised in has very little to do with the quality of the down, and very little down comes from geese that you or I would call mature. Almost all down commercially available is a secondary product of geese raised for consumption. It would be prohibitively expensive to raise geese for down alone. Geese generally are hatched in the spring and slaughtered for poultry in the fall. A small number of breeder birds are kept through the year. These geese molt naturally in the spring. While their down is loose it is collected by hand. This is the down used in Feathered Friends sleeping bags and jackets. It is very rare and , of course, expensive. What is the difference in quality? There are other important measurements of down quality. In other parts of the world the percentage of whole down pieces verses feather and fiber has traditionally been the measure of down quality. Down with 95% cluster is about as good as you can get, and even down with 80% cluster would pass as “all down”. Cleanliness is important also. Contaminants cause odors, shorten the life of the down, and can cause allergies. Recovery from compression used to be regarded as an important property to measure. With high fill power down, you can be pretty much assured that care has been taken in cleaning and separating the down, otherwise you simply cannot get the high fill power figures. The premium 700 to 800+ fill are both quite different from 550-650 fills. Down is commonly described as coming from mature, cold climate geese. In truth, the climate the goose is raised in has very little to do with the quality of the down, and very little down comes from geese that you or I would call mature. Almost all down commercially available is a secondary product of geese raised for consumption. It would be prohibitively expensive to raise geese for down alone. The "mature" geese that are the source for lower fill down are about four months old when they are "harvested" for food. Down from these geese can be carefully sorted, washed, and blended, but it will never loft like really mature down. In addition, there are differences in the breed of geese. 800+ fill is a more mature, more careful selection of the same type of down that makes up the 700+ fill. The larger individual plumes are what gives the greater loft. The only way to get down of this quality is by careful hand selection. This is the major factor in its scarcity, not the lack of mature geese. Farms that want to produce the highest quality down must raise the right geese, feed them properly, let them get mature, and carefully gather the down. Very few poultry farmers want to go to this trouble. Some of the 700+ down fill we use comes from a small number of birds kept for breeding purposes throughout the year. These geese molt naturally in the spring. While their down is loose it is collected by hand. It is very rare and, of course, expensive. Down processors are very secretive about their sources. We will probably never be able to determine how much of our down is "live plucked" and how much is collected from the geese that are eaten. Fill Power How is down measured? Down is measured for quality by volume. The formula refers to the fill power of each ounce of down by cubic inches per ounce. For 800 fill, the minimum measurement is 800 cubic inches per one ounce of down. When we label our down, we use the symbol “+” to signify that our fill typically supercedes the minimum requirements of fill power. What is the industry standard? Fill power is not an official measurement of down subject to any government regulation. The original fill power standard test was developed for the army, and requires equipment that no one has. A less formal standard has been accepted by down processors, manufacturers, and testing labs. It involves measurements taken of a one ounce sample of down in a glass cylinder with a weighted piston compressing the down. The test requires controlled temperature, humidity, and preparation of the sample to be to be even close to accurate. A number of tests must be made with down collected from several places in each batch, and the measurements averaged. The most reliable tests are done by certified testing labs. A processor or manufacturer's test cannot be considered accurate without lab confirmation. Who is creating the industry standard? Currently, the outdoor industry is working on the standard method of measuring down sanctioned by the Outdoor Industry Association (OIA) and the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM). Subcommittee F08.22 has been working together to standardize the method of how down should be conditioned and measured for fill power. Content. If down has no central quill why do you sometimes find sharp feathers poking through a down jacket? In commercial use it is impossible to separate out all the feathers from down. The separation is done by blowing down into the air and counting on the heavier feathers to settle out faster. Large pieces or "pods" of down are larger than small feathers and to separate out all the larger pieces would lose the best down. Down also tends to stick together and stick to the small feathers. Hand separation would take all day for one pound. The real down content of "down" can vary from above 90% to less than 50%. FTC regulation allows down to be labelled all down if the down content is over 70%. Up to 20% can be feathers and the remainder can be broken fibers and extraneous matter. There is no organized testing or compliance program except in a few states; and naturally, since feathers and broken fibers are less expensive than down, cheating is not unheard of. You cannot get 600+ fill down that exceeds maximum feather content. The 750+ and 800+ fill down used is more than 90% pure down cluster.

Not one piece of veggie in the corner. I still believe the left ridge was a first though. Lots of trundling and weeds. I never thought it was so fun to tease you guys!

Hint: It is in the Becky Guide. No more hints.

I think you are mistaken. The more loft from each ounce, the more air that can circulate through the down. Higher lofting down does not retain more water than lower lofting down. Also, the lofting ability between 700 and 800 is the same. There is a test that has become a standard in the industry for measuring loft and it includes a pressure test. 800 fill is not "weaker" than 700 by any means. As far as your theory on 900 fill being the maximum level for down products, think again. As the food industries in China,the Middle East and Europe raise geese for food consumption they sell the down as a biproduct. Geese could threoretically be raised genetically for their goose down but it is very expensive to raise a bird for one purpose. There is a company in Oregon who raises roosters for the fly tying and flyfishing industry but each bird costs as much as $80 per skin. Overseas there are birds raised fo the same purpose but the quality and cost is much lower. More like $5 to $10 per skin. So the question remains, is there 900 fill or 1000 fill available? Yes but the cost is much too expensive for the consumer market so the limit is at around 800 fill for the industry. Any company who claims to have a higher fill is selling the exact same down as everyone else but making false claims. Everyone's down fill is conservatively rated because the suppliers can't guarantee a constant supply of the exact same fill power. The fill could barely make the 800 level in January but it exceeds 875 fill in August. The bottom line, if Marmot isn't responsible for the 900 fill claim then you can blame their suppliers for falsifying their product.

Ask them how they have their down tested. Depending on the season, I am sure that their 900 fill doesn't always test at 900 fill. Otherwise, TNF, FF, WM, IG, MH, SD, GL, EXPD and everyone else would have 900 fill as well. Quoted from two outdoor industry corperate executives at the Outdoor Retailer Show in SLC this year, "Lying Bastards!" One other thing, only goose down suppliers are able to seperate the good down from the bad. Marmot has no ability to seperate their down to obtain 900 fill.

If you have a chance, take a look at Climbing Magazine's Septemper issue of 2002. There is a great shootout with all of the lightweight bags on the market. I am not sure what the temp rating you are looking for but the ones being reviewed are around 20 degrees. Lots of great info.

I was kidding Lambone. I was going through the image database and saw some old images of Phil Ershler and Jim Wickwire with old school FF down gear on a few days ago. I mostly think it is cool that most of the products are designed for Washington's tough conditions. I think the Vireo half bag was a great idea for climbs like Stuart N. Ridge or NE Butt on Slesse or Bear or a long trek into Marble Creek where you have to carry so much gear due to long approaches, technical glacier travel and moderately technical rock climbs. I also think it is cool that the retail store has so many cool people come in for slide shows. I loved the Tackle and Becky slideshow. Check out the image.

Is Feathered Friends better if they are paying attention to this website? Better jackets, vests and parkas no doubt. The sleeping bags are almost the same but at least you can walk in the factory for warranties. Lots of great climbers (Lambone) use FF gear.

The Darrington Festival is actually in July. Here is info---> July 18-20 Darrington Bluegrass Festival, Darrington Bluegrass Music Pk., Darrington, WA contact: Grover Jones, P.O. Box 249, Darrington, WA 98241, 360)436-1006 or 1179. Tickets $30 before July 1. $35 after July 1. Camping $20. Checks to: Bluegrass & Country Music Makers Assn., P.O. Box 519, Darrington, WA., 98241 http://www.glacierview.net/bluegrass, Brother's Keeper I attended this festival last year and stayed up until 5am jamming with someone who sounded like Ralph Stanley (Oh Brother fame. Sang "Man of Constant Sorrow in the 50's and 60's) I remember being able to look up at the north-east face wondering who is gonna step up to the plate. Looks frightening but inviting. Has anyone attempted it or climbed it yet?