Mtguide

Not only are they "not very diligent",there's been a lot of outright lying and deception regarding the actual costs of the program;the report you might be thinking of came out in May.(The report isn't specific to the Wenatchee district,btw).Scott Silver of Wild Wilderness.org sent it out from his website on May 24 this year.Log on to GAO for the full report,or GAO for the highlights.Also see Scott Silver's website at wildwilderness What's going on is being done with malicious intent;these are not nice people.The goal is the privatization of public lands with the motorized and theme park recreation interests in control.We all need to really wake up and get more fully educated as to just how serious this threat is to our continued freedom of access to outdoor recreation on the public lands.

It's just Jim Bridwell and his understudies topping out a new route on a wall in Alaska or Baffin 30 years from now.

good luck dude, but its crazy once you meet 'em. Ah,yes,but is crazy goood,eh? Oh yes,I am thingking so verry much...

Won't argue there.

A woman with the looks and body of Mariah Carey(nice voice,too)the sass and bounce of Cyndi Lauper,the soul and creativity of women like Bonnie Raitt,Lorena McKennit,Joni Mitchell,Emmylou Harris,Tracy Gray and Enya,brains of Helen Caldicott(founder of Physicians for Social Responsibility)the pungent wit and trenchant politics of Molly Ivins,the classic good taste of Princess Di and Jackie Kennedy Onassis,the compassion of Mother Teresa,the love for climbing and athleticism of Araceli Segarra(great looks,too)Hilaree O'neill and Sue Nott,financial acumen of Suze Orman,the passion of Tina Turner,the talent for cooking of Julia Child,and well,ya know... just a nice,simple all around type o' gal.

Yeah,this is one of the primo trips on the mountain in winter;take a look at the route as it's described in Oregon Descents by David Waag.Looks pretty cool to me,and I'd definitely be interested in this one,some of my other bc buddies might also be up for it.

I was unaware of that.That sounds like an excellent reason for more signage at the trailheads to dangerous areas,and some kind of more serious educational effort to reach these groups of people.

Thanks for clarifying that point,regarding skiers in particular,as well as the risk zone on climb approaches.It reminds me that Alex Lowe's tragic death occurred in just such a circumstance,albeit in an arena of much greater scale than anything we encounter here in the Pac.NW. And it's absolutely true,both in the past and today,that highly skilled backcountry skiers incur the greatest risk,and in actual fact,the most incidents and fatalities due to avalanches.This is further confirmed by figures from accident reports that the demographic for avalanche victims is predominantly white males 17 to 38 yrs.old,with the numbers of women victims in the same age range beginning to show an increase in the last 15 years.

Although I don't know if it was aired as part of a video,there were newspaper photos of Saddam showing what he looked like AFTER they cleaned him up,shaved his beard,combed his hair,etc.,and those were right beside the "before" pictures of him with beard and matted hair.So I thought that was at least some attempt to show him as a human being,as well as to help verify his identity more forcefully for the benefit of the Iraqi public and to show the insurgents that yeah,we really do have your guy,fuckers. Anyway,my take on it was that it was considered so important as a morale booster for our troops and their families, the anti-Saddam Iraqi public,and US public,as well as a vindication and validation of the whole campaign to the international community,that it was worth taking the risk of outcries about violations of the Geneva convention,and to just get the news out there as quickly as possible. Obviously it hasn't put an end to the insurgency,but I think there's no doubt it had to discourage and dissuade at least some insurgents;hopefully it will save some lives of both soldiers and innocent civilians.And I think most important is the elimination of a huge,long term fear factor for ordinary Iraqi people.I remember during the war,columnist/war correspondent Thomas Friedman was asked what he thought it would take to convince Iraqis that Saddam was actually deposed and could no longer harm them.He said that either you'd have to capture him alive and show him in chains,with DNA and dental verification of his identity;or if he was killed,if the Iraqi people could actually see and touch his corpse and dip their hands in his blood,again with DNA/dental verification,then they MIGHT,he emphasized,might actually begin to believe that it was indeed true.But he said, in any event,after almost 3 decades of constant and brutal fear,it will probably take a long,long time,perhaps even a generation, of safety,peace and stability for the ordinary Iraqi people to feel truly free to go about their daily lives,to voice opinions or participate politically without fear of retaliation.Really,really sad.

Your point is well taken.I've heard it said that an expert climber or extreme skier on an extreme route can actually be safer than a novice on an easy route,due to the advanced level of skill,conditioning,preparedness and experience.

Thanks for the reminder;that's a bad writing habit of mine.Used to get those little paragraph symbols all over my papers when I was a kid in school--but then I started reading Kerouac,so I'mprobablyluckyallmywritingdoesn'tlooklikethis.

Guys,guys!!!!!Mary Lou has a right to her opinions and a right to express them,regardless of what they may be.That right is an absolutely essential part of what our nation is all about,and I heard it said by a recently retired general on the news this morning ,that he thought there was not a single soldier on duty right now in Iraq or Afghanistan who doesn't consider the right to freedom of speech,and the other freedoms granted in the Bill of Rights, to be a basic reason that they're over there doing what they're doing, for many of them a very important reason as to why they are even IN the military. And likewise,you guys,Griz,Trask,etc.,have that same right-to say what you want to say,however you want to say it.But it's worth considering that when that verges on just trying bash someone down in anger,intolerance,invective, and hatred,we begin to lose sight of the fact that the country works best when we honor each other as fellow citizens and fellow countrymen,and that the idea and vision of what America is,is still a work in progress,and that work and vision will keep us vital and strong and free only so long as it continues to grow in respect and tolerance for the freedom to dissent and to think critically.Dissent is critical to the maintenance of freedom;without it,tyrants such as Saddam have free reign.People like Saddam come to power when no has the guts to say,"Wait a minute,I don't know if I like what I see going on here",or even just "WHAT'S going on here?".Dissent is,if anything,MORE patriotic than continual and uncritical,unthinking acceptance and parroting of the majority line of thought,because it is an effort on the part of true patriots to help the ship of state correct its course and avoid the rocks and shoals of blind obedience or uncaring laziness and cynicism,greed for power,and corruption that all governments,nations and people are subject to.The next time you feel your anger rise in your chest and feel like smashing someone you disagree with,try(try) to remember Edmund Burke,one of the framers of the Constitution,who said,"I may disagree with what you say; but I will defend to the death your right to say it." We are all in this together,living in the midst of a huge,messy,imperfect,corrupt,hopelessly fucked up and yet at the same time,wonderful,amazing,beautiful and immensely successful and miraculous social experiment which has given and created more freedom ,diversity,and outrageous opportunity to more people than any other country in the history of the world.It's a great and roaring river,man; carrying us all along on a deep and thundering tide of energy and thought and spirit for one hell of a ride.Try to tie that down with the fear and rigidity of anger and hatred and you just muddy the flow; even the rocks eventually get worn away, because the river knows how to use the very stones to grind them down. In India,the common greeting is "Shanti",which simply means,"I salute the light within you." It's a recognition of the fact that,regardless of belief or language or race,we're all of the same dust,that we're all here by the grace of a Power or powers beyond us,and that to live and survive takes will,strength and spirit,and that that effort and love and committment is worthy of respect,no matter how poorly or imperfectly it may be accomplished. Quite a few years ago,I was a working cowboy on a sizeable cow outfit near Jordan,Montana.We all had about 10 horses in our personal string,and I had one big old ex-rodeo bucking horse named Hippo.They called him that because he was big(1400 lbs.plus),gray,and a yawner.He also was known to bawl like a grizzly bear when he bucked;when I arrived on the outfit and he was turned into my string,all the other guys told me me to watch him like a hawk or he'd be sure to buck my ass clear to Calgary and paw the moon down doing it.In the eight months I worked there,I never had so much as a crow hop out of Hippo;we got along fine.My last day on the outfit dawned clear,bright and very crisp and cold,the first hard frost of the season.We saddled up in the dawn light,with the steam pouring out of the horses' nostrils and the frost glinting on the ground.Weather like this will make cowhorses frisky,and we had a few little bucking horse shows as everyone got the kinks busted out;my mount for the day just happened to be Hippo.As I cinched him up,I thought for sure he'd be humping up and ready to do some cloudwalking,but he never gave a rustle.Until I hit the saddle,that is.No sooner had I gathered the reins and gained the off stirrup,when Hippo bogged his head with a savage jerk to one side,let out a bellow like a grizzly and cougar combined and launched us into the sky.I took a deep seat,held on to my hat and got ready for all hell on the hurricane deck as Hippo reached the crest of his giant arc,swept his massive front hooves along the sides of his head trying to paw off the entire headstall,and played a tune on my spurs with his hind feet,trying to kick my feet out of the stirrups.And now the ground,frozen hard as iron,was coming up fast,and I got set for the jarring,driving shock that would crunch my spine double and chip my teeth as I cracked my chin on the saddlehorn when Hippo came down with all four feet in a spot about the size of a dinner plate and launched off again....except that he didn't.Because Hippo,damn his sarcastic soul,landed like a ballerina's creampuff dream,threw his head up at just the right angle to watch a cow,and lit into a high reaching mile-eating trot that brought me up right beside the cowboss and the segundo.We were all laughing like hell and you could see old Hippo was mighty pleased with himself;and the cowboss looked over at me with a big grin on his face and said,"It's a great life,ain't it,cowboy?". It takes all kinds,boys; relax; enjoy the ride; don't forget to laugh---and let 'er buck!

You guys were smart. Since I first came to the NW in 1965,there have been a number of avalanche deaths in this same area,particularly as the regional population and popularity of outdoor activities has grown.One of the worst I remember was a father and son who died beneath Chair Peak about 6 years ago.This whole area of the Chair Peak/Snow Lake basins has been notorious for avalanche danger for many years,and it always amazes me to see that people still seem to take this area for granted as some kind of harmless winter wonderland playground.In his very first edition of Cascade Alpine Guide(1973 folks!!)in the three-volume format,Fred Beckey says, "Mean annual precipitation ranges from about 120 inches in the Snoqualmie Pass peaks to about 180 inches in the vicinity of Mt. Index.Heavy winter snows accumulate on countless avalanche slopes and slides often spread out to cover flat valleys and meadows with debris.The traveler should be especially wary of avalanches in winter and spring."And in the second edition in '87,he amended this to add, "Mean annual snowfall for Snoqualmie Pass is 398(!) inches;mean annual temperature is 51 degrees."He further adds,"The traveler should be especially wary of avalanche danger after heavy snowfall and during any unstable conditions. " Anyone who has even the most rudimentary understanding of what snow is,and how it is affected by temperature,should be able to at least get some kind of rough hint from these words,or,to coin an acronym, STHOOTMS!(StayTheHellOutOfTheMountainsStupid!)when it's deep,fresh,and warm. Also important to remember is that it doesn't take a whole mountainside of snow coming down to kill you; even a little 10 or 15 foot slope will carry more than enough snowload to sweep you off a rimrock ,into a creek, bury your ass upside down in a tree well,or gather enough speed to dislocate limbs or spine,or crack your skull like an eggshell against a rock or tree,not to mention just plain suffocating you.Anyone and everyone planning to venture into the mountains(yes,the Chair Peak group are actually real mountains,boys and girls) in winter should take a Level I avalanche course at the very least,should study terrain and learn to plan travel routes that avoid avalanche areas,and never travel alone or without transceivers and the ability to use them and all other avalanche equipment,anytime you're going into avalanche prone territory.Signs to this effect should be posted at trailheads,just as chain warnings are out on the highway.There are always those who insist on wanting to go solo,and I have no desire to impinge on anyone's personal desires or freedom of choice,but in the case of avalanche conditions and territory,solo backcountry travelers need to at least consider the very great risk they may bring to bear on rescuers, as well as the many tragic instances of family and friends left behind.It's plenty dangerous enough even with a group,but at least then you have a chance.If you travel solo in avalanche areas during unsafe conditions,you'd better have your affairs in order and best of luck.Even with a group,know how to travel so as to avoid exposing more than one person at a time to danger when crossing avalanche-prone terrain.This was the classic mistake made earlier this season with Rudi Beglinger's disaster in B.C.And another guide in the area commented at the time of that accident,remarking on Beglinger's many years of experience and extreme level of expertise,"If it can happen to Rudi,it can happen to anyone."Yes indeedy,be careful,and may you all have a great and safe season and many,many more.

If in fact you did really have everything,that would most likely mean you'd also have the place(s) to put it.

ASSHOLE OF SPADES TRUMPED There was a comment on Saddam's cowardice in the face of capture by the current Head of the Iraqi Delegation that "all tyrants are cowards",which is for the most part true from history.Imagine being in a position of being competely unable to trust anyone.After 24 years of living like that,even before the fall of his regime,he had to be a pretty unstable guy,to say the very least. There's been a lot of commentary on just what this will actually mean for the continued effort to bring the country and region into equilibrium.The concensus seems to be,including the best military opinion,that there will no doubt be some continued violence by die-hard fedayeen and other insurgents.But it's very significant in terms of eliminating an emotional and Baathist party rationale and rallying point for any hopes of the old regime somehow continuing a guerilla war of attrition,to eventually claw their way back to power,such as what eventually drove the Russians out of Afghanistan.(And of course that happened in combination with overwhelming financial problems that made the Russians unable to continue).There was an excellent program on the History Channel last week which documented the more than 10 year process of restoring Germany to some semblance of order and stability after WWII,and compared that to the present situation in Iraq.The very exact same problems occurred in post-Nazi Germany as those now taking place in Iraq,but on a much more widespread and more deeply rooted scale.Insurgency and the hiding of Nazi regime members,bombings and sabotage were largely supported by the general populace,and over the period from VE day to 1951,some 2700 American soldiers were killed due to ambushes,suicide bombings,and other sabotage operations.That's over 500 servicemen a year.It was not until almost 10 years later that the Germans were allowed to form their own representational government by the UN,and it's suspected that there are still a large number of former Nazi party members,military officers and operatives who simply vanished into the general populace and whose secrets were never revealed by family or friends.To this point,as difficult as it has been,things are actually proceeding on a much faster time scale in Iraq,although no one wants to make any projections on how long the US will be there,just yet. Finally,in regards to what Trask's buddy in the military said about the troops on the ground and the gritty foot-by-foot,day-by-day price they have paid to get things to this point,it was Dan Rather who made the point,not once, but 4 or 5 times in his live program this morning,that it has been ordinary soldiers,"boots on the ground" , who have carried out all these search and capture missions of the characters on the Deck of Cards,and it was just such a team who captured Saddam last night.I am only too happy that he didn't harm anyone else during his capture,and although there will probably be some discussion on just where and how he should be tried(there are a number of other countries who claim injury from Saddam's actions,and there will almost certainly be an effort to see that he's tried in an international court)I absolutely agree that he should have to answer to his own people on their own ground.And in spite of my disagreements with various aspects of the Bush administration's policies on not only the way this war was propogated,but many other domestic and international issues as well,this is one liberal who is more than happy to give credit where credit is due,to commend and honor the terrible sacrifices made by those in the military,and their families,and to celebrate the final demise of yet another tyrant.Now on to Osama!and may Iraq be free forever. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Heaven's net casts wide; though its' meshes are coarse,nothing slips through..." -Lao Tzu,Tao te Ching 658 B.C.

Hi Maryk; Sorry to hear of your problem.Please refer to the previous thread in this forum entitled "tennis elbow"(10/21/03);in which I posted comments.I've been through the whole experience several times.That thread elicited a number of posts which have excellent advice.First thing i can tell you is that if it's hurting as much as you describe,please,for you own sake,what ever it is that makes it hurt--STOP DOING IT NOW, and give this thing a chance to heal.You can read all about it in my post on that thread,as well as the others.Listen to your body,and best of luck.

Wow, only three spelling errors. You must be in graduate school. yu meen grajuwit skooll.

A truly tragic episode.Regarding the release of mental patients in the early 80's,this was in large part due to Reagan/Bush era cuts in federal funding to states for mental health programs,which were deemed "non-essential",and "pork".Many thousands of seriously mentally ill patients were released on their own recognizance,with bus tickets to their last known adresses or the adresses of relatives,who were seldom,if at all,informed of the release.Not suprisingly,a great many of these people,being incapable of managing their daily lives in the outside world,wound up in places and situations that were confusing ,frightening and dangerous both to themselves and the public in general.At the time this program(it was a federal as well as a state action) took place,I was living in Pinedale,Wyoming;and I will never forget the numbers of these people who began to mysteriously show up in our area,totally disoriented,displaying a variety of bizarre behaviors.Winters in Pinedale are extremely severe,and we had a number of incidents where these people were found frozen to death.I myself picked up several people on the highway,stumbling along in the snow at night,in the borrow pit,during blizzards, when I was driving the snowplow for Sublette county.The town and the county had no funds or facilities to handle these people,and most were given a meal and a bed in the jail over night and sent on their way when daylight or weather permitted.I remember a number of pretty hardcased tough old conservative ranchers and cowboys who were touched by the plight of these folks and offered room and board for those who were able to do a little work around a ranch;and several of these are still around from what I hear,(and not as crazy as some of those who've lived there all their lives,as the local joke goes)and I know that more than a few hardcore conservative Republicans came to reconsider their views due to this ugly episode. Reagan signed the bill that began this nasty business,and I consider him directly responsible for the beginning of the descent of our state and national mental health system into a medieval dark ages.I find it to be a rough,swift,and great good justice that he himself has now descended into the pit of Alzheimer's."Do unto others..."

You forgot and Ah yes,Those were THE days...

In the summer tourist season,that's true--winter is a little different,in spite of it being ski season--cuties are noticeably more scarce.But yeah there are a lot of good looking ladies in Jackson--if you can afford them;pretty high-maintenance bunch.Bring money,planes,furs,etc. ----------------------------------------------- "One word,my boy,one word; 'plastics'...."

" A village in Texas is missing its' idiot.."

----------------------------------------- "It doesn't have to be fun,to be fun..." -Mark Twight "Ya oughta try some o' this; tastes pretty good,even if it does look like horse dick..." -Fred Beckey "DON'T be good." -Warren Harding

Wow; fantastic.