Mtguide

----------------------------------------- "Relax your mind,relax your mind,you got to relax your mind...." -Country Joe and the Fish

First of all,not being(well,never having been) a 5.11 or 5.12 climber myself,I simply can't speak from personal experience,regarding what,if any changes or increases in strength might be required to get to that level.I myself have noticed that improvement in technique and balance have had for more to do with progressing than strength,but grip strength,combined with dropping some bodyweight,has certainly seemed to be part of the equation,at least for me.I don't think I necessarily meant to say that 5.12 is any kind of biomechanical threshold of climbing physics ,at which,or beyond which there's some kind of required increase in strength in order to progress.Furthermore,I think that because everyone is physically and biomechanically different,that it's relative;one person may simply need to work on technique,someone else may actually need to improve strength.The grip strength to body weight ratio does seem to be a constant,however; something measurable and significant in terms of hard physics,regardless of individual differences in build,or even, in some cases,technique.And at higher grades,(5.13 +)where climbers are using one-finger pockets,miniscule crimps and dynos,there's a pretty obvious training and conditioning requirement,a foundation in which strength is certainly a necessary component.From witnessing the skills of my friends who are solid 5.11/5.12 climbers,it does seem that there is a definite strength/endurance requirement.Hangboards,campus walls and weights all have their effects on strength and endurance,and I do think that conditioning has direct benefits to enabling improvements in technique. I suppose it even becomes,after a certain level of difficulty,a sort of chicken-and-egg syndrome,and depending on the individual climber,traceable or measurable only in terms of where each person starts from.I think there's no question that anyone who climbs is going to get stronger,and that technique will improve with practice,training, persistence and experience.Whether the sequence is technique develops endurance and strength,or vice-versa is a little hard to say.My guess would be that few who start climbing have natural inborn technique,so that strength would be likely to develop first,eventually taking you to a point where you realize that there has to be more to it than mere strength.Strength will take you only so far.From that point (anywhere above 5.9) it seems that,at least from my own personal experience,improvements in technique and strength go pretty much hand in hand. Hope I haven't confused the issue.

Been to Boulder? just south of Pinedale... its easy to miss, pop. 75, well it was when we were there.... pop. 72 .... there are litteraly millions of undeveloped trad lines in the wester foot hills of the wind rivers... I knew most of the people who lived in and around Boulder,even played Santa Claus one Christmas for the kids at the Boulder Community Center.When I lived near Pinedale,I was near Cora,up north of town(pop.5---yes,5)Boulder is still( or was) old-time Wyoming.And in reading some of these other comments,I'm reminded of a lot; it is true that you'll be treated like an outsider--you can live there 50 yrs,and you'll still be a 'newcomer'--but not without a wink and a twinkle in the eye as they say it. Also,what i'm reading about Jackson really rings true-lots of irritable money-grubbing pricks up there--but some great people as well.The last time I spoke to an old friend,Dick Noble,who ranches near Cora,I asked him about how the country was doing economically--and he said,"Well,all the billionaires have chased all the millionaires out of Jackson,and they(millionaires) all came down to Pinedale."

Griz has some good points about Laramie,all true.However,there is the Univ.of Wyo. there,so there is something of an academic/intellectual/creative community there,some very fine people indeed,like anywhere.It's not exactly Throwback City,but it is kinda raw.I lived in Wyoming for 10 yrs as a working cowboy and packer/guide,based in Pinedale most of that time,but I lived near Dubois my first season and spent a winter feeding elk at Hoback Junction just south of Jackson in 79-80.I've traveled the entire state extensively and would say that every region has its pros and cons,and Laramie,while a little warmer(winter lows of -30,-40 compared with -65,-70 around Pinedale and Jackson)it has more days of wind,and the amenities such as mountains,scenery,skiing,climbing ,etc. are indeed far more distant.The town ain't too pretty,but you can have fun there;there is a definite hardcore quality of remoteness,toughness and sharp-edged reality which lends itself to the kind of art and photography that finds substance and beauty in weathered buildings,windburned cowboys in their fur-collared down jackets and Scotch caps,ice-rimed cattle trucks crunching through the frozen chuckholes with their cargoes filling the air with bawling clouds of steam at dawn,the juxtaposition of 1880's old west brick-and-timber saddle shops with fast food joints and railyards all within a few blocks.Laramie is barren and the wind will just cut you right in two;it is,as a friend of mine from California termed it once," a very serious little place".Nonetheless,you might find,once you're there(and you really ought to at least visit before you make a final decision) that it elicits in you a response in kind-that is,Wyoming will show you what you're made of,and the people will do this as well.They're about as genuine as they come,a quality of high value in Wyoming,because it's not an easy place to live.Because there are so few people there,you find a deeper appreciation and regard for those you come to know.The place has some absolutely fantastic people,wonderful writers and artists,poets,musicians,to the truckers,cowhands and ranchers,oil field roughnecks,outlaws,entreprenuers,politicians and scoundrels that you couldn't make up if you tried.All in all,demanding; but rewarding in ways that you'll discover only by living there.Most of my friends who've spent time there consider it an experience they wouldn't trade for anything. I know I do. During my time there I came to know the Wind River range,Teton Wilderness,Red Desert,Bighorns, Gros Ventres and Absaroka range pretty well;I'd be happy to steer you towards the hidden secrets they hold,(and there are some doozies).E-mail me with any other questions. ------------------------------------------------------ "In about one minute it's gonna git 'Western' around here..."

You make me laugh! PP Well,that's just the headline;the rest of the article contains plenty of caveats regarding actual growth of jobs and consumer confidence,with most of the so-called growth coming from high-ticket items("durable goods")by those who have ready cash, and equipment investment by corporations,a reasonable action during times when interest rates and prices in general are low.The article states that there is concern about the relationship of such infrastructure investment to real gains on the part of middle class ordinary people,and that stock market figures do not a recovery make.And of course even the market has been extremely cautious,with bull market days not yet consistent or dominant.Best not to laugh too soon,or too readily;or to forget the old phrase "he who laughs last...." --------------------------------------------------------- Song of the Red Tailed Hawk I look it over I look it over; The fencerow,the field's edge; I look it all over carefully. Gary Lawless,Blackberry Press

What Bush did is called a damage control photo-op.I have no problem with it,it's what politicians do no matter which side they're on.The current news as of this morning at the present time is that the actual planning for this trip had been in the works for about 5 weeks(CNN),and that the idea was first presented to Bush last summer.It has little to do with leadership;it's actually closer to being led by the administration public relations flacks and Bush's handlers,who are well-paid to come up with ideas such as this to keep everything positive in the (no longer independent or free-if in fact it ever was) media,and to distract the public from more serious domestic,economic or international problems.Don't insult your own intelligence by believing that Bush himself may have originated the idea.(CNN and Condoleeza Rice have confirmed that it was adviser Sandy Carson's idea).CNN's report stated that, once informed of the idea,Bush's first reaction was to question what the personal risks would be to himself.Reasonable enough,given the responsibility of his office;but true courage and committment would have required much more than a couple of hours in the safe company of hundreds of elite soldiers at a totally secured rear base.A more substantive visit might have included a trip to Bagdad,some face to face with soldiers in the dirt,and perhaps the Iraqi Governing Council.Real courage is demonstrated by FDR's plane and ship journey to Yalta while WWII was still raging,Anwar Sadat's visit to Israel after the Sinai war,and JFK's decision to go to Dallas despite specific Secret Service warnings not to do so.The visit will also do a bit to assuage some negative feelings about Bush's plan to cut hazard/combat compensation(by more than 50%) for troops in Iraq and Afghanistan(still in negotiation) and the cutting of funding for Veteran's Hospitals and post-deployment medical care by about 40%(has been acted on).My purpose here is not to just bash Bush because of who he is or for being a Republican,but to simply see the story behind the scenes,and hopefully to see things as they really are.And I guarantee that if the Democrats had such an opportunity,they'd do the same.As usual,there's just a little more to the story than meets the eye. ----------------------------------------------------- When Clinton lied,no one died. Current total of US troops killed in Iraq so far: 428;127 of those since the "end of major operations" in May.Stay cool.eh?

dude wont need to go back for seconds. happy thanksgiving yall! i am off to climb in the sun. How appropriate;this picture is just like the Bush economic policies: 'All for me and none fer you,sucka!!' ---------------------------------------------- "Oh,I'm sorry; did I break your concentration??"

Strength in rock climbing is most important in terms of the ratio of grip-strength to bodyweight.This is why people like Katie Brown and Chris Sharma have great advantage over bigger,more heavily muscled climbers.Someone built like Arnold Schwarzenegger(who is something of an occasional rock climber,I've heard)may have tremendous grip strength many times that of Sharma,but if his body weight is too great for his grip strength,the huge arms,chest,back, etc.,will do him little good in the effort to crank 5.12.I've experienced this personally(not that I was ever the size of Arnold).The first time I ever went to the Rock Gym here in Portland,I was a well built and muscular 205 lbs. at 6' tall.The place was full of geeky pencil necks with arms like pipe cleaners, clambering all over the place upside down like a bunch of spiders;I had a hard time getting up the stiffer 5.8 &5.9.In the years since I've stayed in shape,but lost about 20 lbs;I'm still no 5.12 climber,but find it much easier to climb up to about 5.10c,and feel much more secure at a consistent 5.8-5.9 level.Balance and technique are far more important than sheer strength,but of course to climb 5.12 and above you must have strength,in spades,just in the right ratio to your size and body weight.Basic physics.What was Alex Lowe,about 6'0",155 lbs or so? Another perfect example.Pretty scrawny by musclehead standards,but all that meat can definitely keep you earthbound.Look at the women:Steph Davis,Josune Bereziartu,Lynn Hill(nice small fingers,perfect for cracks)Kitty Calhoun,Araceli Segarra,Sue Nott,etc.Light,slender,with hands and fingers of steel.

Not sure how you reached that conclusion by what I said in my post;I've been aware of that since about,oh,1958.Maybe my wording was confusing to you? ----------------------------------------------------- "Dave's not here,man..."

You got that right; Asscroft/Bush et al are still all freaked about medical marijuana here in Oregon,they sure as hell won't stand for folks using it for fun or contemplation,creativity,inner freedom or anything else that's real scary and dangerous like that. Sourdoughs get ready for the next pre-emptive strike on "terrorism" to take place in your own living rooms. --------------------------------------------------------- "Oh,I'm Sorry; DID I BREAK YOUR CONCENTRATION?"

Wow,Cosmic.(Well,yeah...)I am at One with the Universe.... "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" -the Wizard of Oz --------------------------------------------------------- "A perfection of means,and confusion of aims,seems to be our main problem." -Albert Einstein

Modern passive pro also utilizes the cracks,holes,features,etc. in the rock,but doesn't require hammering(other than perhaps using a hammer to tap or"set" a stopper or hex).As availabilty of natural rock features decreases,hooks,bashies,crackers,peckers and rurps come into play;find out what these are.On completely blank featureless rock,holes are drilled and expansion bolts or glued bolts are used,and bolts are also used for permanent anchors.There are many excellent books which deal with what the great Doug Robinson once called "The Whole Natural Art of Protection",which was the title of a seminal essay he wrote for the Chouinard catalog of 1973.You may still be able to find old copies of 'Basic Rockcraft' and 'Advanced Rockcraft' by Royal Robbins in used bookstores.The Falcon series of books on climbing has some good titles including 2 on "Climbing Anchors" by John Long,and you might look for one called "So How Do They Get the Rope Up There Anyway?".And the old standby,now new and well updated,is "Mountaineering;The Freedom of the Hills"pub. by the Mountaineers.7th Edition.another really good book is "Traditional Lead climbing:Surviving the Learning years" by Heidi Pesterfield.Pick these up or find 'em at the library,get to readin'.It's all there;go to a climbing shop,Pro Mountain Sports,Marmot Works,REI,Mountain Shop,etc., look at the gear,ask questions,ask to handle the biners and wires and cams,maybe buy a few basic items ,take 'em out to a practice area or even a building and see how they work,get drawn into it and maybe,the next thing you know you'll find yourself several hundred feet off the ground just digging it with a great big stupid grin on your face. And about asking stupid questions?Never,Ever!!be the least bit hesitant or afraid to ask a question,no matter how ignorant or stupid it may seem.I had a grade school teacher who used to tell us,it's better to look stupid for 5 minutes,than to remain ignorant for the rest of your life;or even for another 10 minutes for that matter.Good on ya,mate;and good luck and good climbing;hope to see you out there.

There was a big discussion on this 11/17/03 in this forum in the thread titled 'Rock Warrior's Way',if you were,uh,paying attention.Click on the index to this forum and check it out. RROOOOOCK!!!!!!

Too bad his dad didn't "pull out" in time...

" Teleworkers of the world,unite!You have nothing to lose but your heels..." - Vladimir Ilyitsch Freenin

"Free your heels and you will free your mind..." -The FreeRolling FreeStones "If one heel is not free,none are free" -freenonymous "I'm free,to do what I want,any old time..." -The Rolling Stones "You are either on the heel or off the heel..." -FreeKen KeseyFree "...nothin' ain't worth nothin',but it's free.." -Kris KristofFreeson "Fix your heels and you sell your soul; free your heels and you buy your freedom..." -FreeBert JanschFree, FreeTangle "Free at last,free at last,thank God a'mighty,we're free at last!" Martin Luther King "And the truth shall set you...Free." ----------------------------------------------------------- "It is true that I am drunk,but you are ugly,and in the morning,I shall be sober..."

Several of the early mountain men ran into some minor inconveniences: A member of the Lewis & Clark expedition was mauled by a grizzly bear,suffering lacerations on his leg.The wound became infected and eventually gangrenous.Realizing that his choice was to remove the leg or die,he asked to have it amputated,so he could continue with the trip.Finding out that the leaders were concerned about delaying the expedition and were planning to leave him with the nearest tribe of friendly Indians to recover from the surgery, the man got up in the middle of the night while all the rest were asleep, and secretly commandeered a large cigar and a small flask of rum from the stores.Taking the the cigar,spirits,and a large knife,he went off by himself,built a small fire,applied a tourniquet to the leg,smoked the entire cigar,drank several shots of the rum,cut the leg off,using the rest of the rum as an antiseptic,cauterized the stump by heating the knife blade,and then whittled himself a temporary crutch and prosthesis.He made it back to camp before the others rose,and reported for duty the next morning,ready to move out with the expedition,adamantly insisting on his fitness and desire to see what was beyond the Rockies.Lewis and Clark were impressed enough by this fellow's grit,initiative and enthusiasm that they immediately promoted him in rank and realized that, as Clark wrote in his journal,they "cuold ill aford to leave behind a man of sutch calibre".The man completed the journey,was later awarded a medal by Pres.Jefferson,and lived to a ripe old age on a small farm in Virginia. Another member of the Lewis & Clark expedition was the (later to be)famous mountain man John Colter.On the return trip,when the expedition was just a day or two away from arrival in St. Louis,they met two men coming up river in a large canoe,fully stocked and provisioned for a long trip.They asked if any of the Lewis and Clark party would be willing to guide them upriver,and Colter,although having been out with the expedition for over two years,immediately offered to go.He then and there was mustered out,took his gear and headed right back up the Missouri with his new company. Over the next months,Colter and his partners made it to the headwaters of the Missouri,and from there down through the country just east of the Yellowstone,over what is now Togwotee Pass,Wyo., into Jackson's Hole,and down the Snake River to near present-day Idaho Falls.It was here they met disaster; rounding a narrow bend on the river,and preparing to beach their canoe for a rest stop,they were surprised by a large band of hostile Blackfoot,who drew their bows and ordered them in to the bank.Colter immediately raised his hands and whispered to his partners to show no sign of resistance, but the two raised their rifles and were instantly filled with arrows,and Colter was captured.Relieved of all his belongings,stripped naked and beaten,Colter was marched to a large camp about a mile and a half west of the Snake,where the Indians discussed what to do with him.Finally they asked him if he could run;Colter said yes,but(lying)not very well.After picking their best runners,they told Colter he was being given a chance to run for his life.Colter was unarmed; chasing him would be about a hundred tough young Blackfoot armed with knives and spears.Giving Colter enough of a sporting head start to get out of immediate spear range,the chase was on,and Colter headed straight for the river,to an area he had earlier noticed had several large drift piles and beaver lodges near the bank.He was running barefoot over stony flats covered with sage,buckbrush and cactus,and although he quickly outdistanced most of the pack,his feet were being ripped to shreds and one large Blackfoot with a spear was gaining on him.Colter slowed,carefully, to avoid making his pursuer suspicious,and when the distance and moment were right,suddenly whirled round in mid-stride,taking the man by surprise.He managed to wrest the spear away from the Indian and killed him with it,took the spear and kept on going.As he got closer to the river,he noticed his mouth felt frothy,and looking down, saw that his chest was covered with the blood that he was coughing up.As he reached the river the closest pursuers were within a few hundred yards.Colter jumped into the ice-cold water,made it well downstream,and hid inside an old beaver lodge before the Indians reached the river.The Blackfoot searched exhaustively up and down the banks and the flats on both sides all the rest of the day till nightfall,and Colter completed his escape that night,covering almost 15 miles before daylight the next morning,having still no clothing,and having taken in nothing but water.He continued traveling at night and hiding by day till he was well out of Blackfoot territory.Four months later,he made it back to St. Louis,having walked clear across what is now Wyoming ,Nebraska,and northeastern Kansas,alone,dodging hostile Pawnee,Oto,Osage and Cheyenne.Colter continued to trap and explore for several more years,discovering Yellowstone,the Wind River Range,Red Desert and South Pass,before retiring to a farm near St Louis. Finally,there's another mountain man,Hugh Glass,who was horribly mauled by a large grizzly sow with cubs while scouting the bank for game as a company hunter on a trip upriver with Jacob Ashley and Manuel Lisa's party of trappers.His entire scalp and the upper right side of his face were torn off his skull and hanging like a flap in front of his face,all the flesh was ripped and shredded off the sides and back of his ribs on each side,and his left leg was broken at the femur;he also sustained numerous other lacerations,fang punctures,and crushing/chewing injuries on hands, arms,neck and shoulders.Bear worked him over pretty good until the other hunters,Tom Fitzgerald,and none other than Jim Bridger,then just 19 and on his first trip into the mountains,came up and killed the bear. The party stopped for a day or two,patched him up as best they could,and then, nervous about lingering too long in one place in hostile Arikara territory,left Fitzgerald and Bridger with Glass,with Fitzgerald in charge.They were instructed to stay with Glass either until he was well enough to travel,or died;and with the extent of his injuries,and the huge amount of blood he'd lost,no one expected him to live more than another few hours,maybe another day at best. Only problem was,Hugh didn't die.He hung on,day after day,and Bridger,having become a close friend with Hugh on the trip so far,refused to let Fitzgerald leave him,or put him out of his misery.Finally,increasingly fearful of being discovered by the Arikara,Fitzgerald persuaded Bridger that they had to rejoin the party while they had a chance of catching them;and,to make it appear that Glass had indeed died,they had to take his rifle,powder and shot,knife and kitbag.Before they left,however,Bridger managed to get Hugh's flint,striker and tinderbox out of the bag while Fitzgerald wasn't looking,and to hide them in Hugh's shirt. To make a long story short,Hugh Glass pulled off a Colter's run of his own,including being captured twice by hostile Indians and twice freed by friendly ones,plus having to crawl on hands and one knee to travel for the first couple of months until his broken leg healed enough to walk on,while allowing the maggots and blowflies to clean the pus and rotting flesh from his wounds so he wouldn't die of septicemia.Took him a bit longer to get back to St. Louis,about 7 months.And,at the time this happened,Glass was in his early fifties,considered really quite old in aday and age when the average life expectancy was about 37.He recovered,fueled by hatred,to hunt down Fitzgerald,who had joined the Army and couldn't be touched without incurring a federal offense,and Bridger, whom he forgave after hearing the full story.Hugh Glass never left the mountains,and continued trapping and traveling in the company of people like Jedediah Smith,Osborne Russell,Bill Williams,Joe Meek,and other illustrious mountain men till he was killed in a scrape with the Utes near present- day Chama,New Mexico,at the age of 75.Kind of a tough old boy. Native Americans had their own sagas.The Blood Indians of SW Alberta(middle band of the Blackfoot nation) have passed down for many generations a story of a group of young men who decided to go on a long journey to the south to seek better hunting at a time when scarcity of game had become very serious and ongoing. At the time this tribe was still living just to the southwest of Hudson's Bay and had not yet migrated to the great plains. The boys( most were about 14-16 years old,the oldest was 17)simply followed the stars south and somewhat west.They were gone for almost 5 years.They all came back in good health,with amazing stories of the animals, people, and country they had seen.They had continued south to a point where they were able, with directions from local people,and following local trails,to go see first one ocean,and then go back and see another,in about two month's travel;and in the forests,they had seen "little men running around up in the trees",brightly colored birds and so on.Some of the feathers they brought back are still in the possession of the Blood tribe,kept in several of the 144 sacred medicine bundles owned by the tribe.The feathers include toucan,parakeet,parrot,and there are some remnants of jaquar and ocelot hide.On their return they had traveled north for many days and changes of the moon,along the eastern base of what they described as very high snow-covered mountains,until sensing that they needed to turn more to the east to get home. The boys had been all the way to central America and the isthmus of Panama;they had avoided death and imprisonment at the hands of other tribes through a combination of caution,wits,luck and eventually out of respect for their youth and courage.As their journey continued,word of their remarkable journey began to precede them,and they were considered sacred,not to be harmed.Once they had returned and told the full story of their adventure,the Blood tribe and their related bands,the Piegan and Siksika,as well as neighboring tribes that would become the Cheyenne,Gros Ventre,and some subtribes of the Sioux,began a series of migrations based on the boys' reports of the abundance of bison and other game,to the areas they occupied by the time the first whites began to show up on the plains.A little different orientation to the whole idea of epic,and/or survival; to these young men,it wasn't wilderness in the same sense that it was to the mountain men;it was just a bigger look around at what was already, home.

We used a cordless drill one time to celebrate the completion of work at a jobsite.More ceremonial than practical,but it worked.

There's definitely still a lot of confusion and lack of verification as to what Castaneda did or didn't do,what is fact or fiction in his writings.what is known is that Don Juan is,or was(not sure if he's still living)a real person.My teacher was invited to a very secret conference held by the schools of Anthropology and Psychology/Psychiatry at UC Riverside in 1975,and the surprise guests were Castaneda and Don Juan.From what little I was able to glean from my teacher,in 3 days of questioning and discussion by a regular holy man jam of eminent researchers,Zens,gurujis,physicists,biochemists,philosophers,shrinks,Gestaltists,shamans,etc.,Don Juan pretty much blew everyone away,left a lot of people scratching their heads,with some feeling to see if their heads were still there.At one point a very eminent psychiatric researcher asked Don Juan,"Well,these 'entities',the 'allies' and 'powers' and 'enemies',these are just phenomena or perceptions in the mind,isn't that right?I mean,they don't actually exist in reality,do they?" To which Don Juan replied,"Oh no;they exist indeed;they are actually"there".Stunned silence all around for some minutes,followed by nervous rustling of papers and coughs,people shifting uncomfortably in their chairs.Wrong guy to ask if you were looking for some kind of solid ground.No photographs or recordings were allowed,and Castaneda and Don Juan arrived and departed the room while all attendees were to remain seated.One drawing submitted was later approved by Don Juan,after he had taken an eraser and removed a little more than half of one side of the face.I don't know; for all we know DJ could be a cab driver from Tijuana or Brooklyn-but they are damned interesting reading,these books. Anyone else know of more recent/complete material on this? Oh,and hmm,I guess we WERE talking about climbing,yeah?

Yeah,but it's just fun to run down the posts in flat mode and see what people have to say;you can think all around the ideas and issues as you're seeing it, get a sense of the entire discussion and by the time you've decided whether or not to chip in,you pretty well have in hand what you're going to say.Seems more conversational.

You got a good start,there,bucko...

Any Zen master or true warrior/teacher such as a 'man of knowledge' like Don Juan would agree that there are as many paths to realization as there are people.It's worth noting,though,if you've read the other Castaneda books,that,beginning with the second book,"A Separate Reality",when Castaneda goes back to visit the brujo Don Juan again,things change bigtime,fast.Expecting to continue further explorations into the nature of reality and knowledge through hallucinogens,Castaneda has spent time gathering more peyote and datura,etc..Presenting this to Don Juan when he arrives,he is taken aback at the reaction;"Ah!Idiot!,says Don Juan;"that was just to loosen up your thick skull,to get you out of your books and paper and pencils,always writing everything down,trying to find patterns and methods,always organizing everything with your stupid science! I had to shake your ass up,get you to break up all that nonsense! The drugs have nothing to do with any of it,nothing whatsoever! For you, this was necessary;for those who live in this desert,they are already alive to begin with.Now throw that garbage out;we have work to do."(Not verbatim;I don't have the book here in front of me, but that's the gist of what Don Juan says). And from there,(at least as Castaneda writes it) the real Journey begins.It's a lot bigger,deeper and stranger than Castaneda had even begun to imagine.He begins to find out much more about why 'brujo' means "sorcerer".And it's all substance-free.At one point Don Juan even comments on bars and smoking;when Castaneda narrowly escapes being killed by an evil entity after an evening of drinking and dancing at a cantina,Don Juan tells him,"You had no business wasting your time in such a place, with that kind of foolish idleness; next time you may not be so lucky." Later,walking through a crowd gathered to hear a political revolutionary,Don Juan points out to Castaneda that the speaker is smoking and gesturing with the lit cigarette as he speaks;"He can't really be serious about anything he's saying..",says don Juan. That's what I like about Ilgner's book and way of training,and about Zen;there are no shortcuts:you have to do the work,grapple with the difficulties,sit down,gather the mind and look into things with persistence and determination."All true paths lead through mountains";my teacher once just barely made it back in time from a night of drunken partying to get to his teacher's place for morning meditation and breakfast,showing up soaking wet and covered head to toe in thick black mud,after frantically pedaling his bicycle clear across a huge city in pouring rain,and falling into a big mud puddle at the bottom of the steps.The teacher behaved as if nothing was the least bit out of the ordinary,made not a single comment on his appearance or condition,and continued as usual;his student had shown up on time,had done what he had agreed to do.But about six months later,during a break in a week long sesshin(meditation intensive),his teacher came up beside him,and gently nudging an elbow in his ribs,said quietly to my teacher,"You know,you can do whatever you want,if you can remain clear; but if you can't remain clear,you can't do it."My teacher who hadn't thought of the incident in months,knew instantly what he was talking about. The point is,drugs,etc.are not the point;what you experience there is just another state of mind-and once you get that point,you don't need to do drugs anymore.Ilgner talks about 'observing' your thoughts,feelings,reactions;my teacher used to say"keep a watchful and elegant mind;but don't get too attached to that,either".Although I know that quite a few people climb,operate heavy equipment etc. behind gage or brew,I don't climb,ski or drive stoned or on anything else,and I refuse to climb(in particular) with anyone who is.I really enjoy it more when I'm clear and truly free,direct confrontation with reality.When you get it out of your own juices,you know it's you,not anything else,doing the talking.And it only takes a split second to make a mistake;lots of times when we get back to the car after a climb,we'll say that now comes the most dangerous part of the trip:driving home.Good to be clear for that,too.Then you can go out and do it again next time. --------------------------------------------- Remember that courage and strength are naught without prudence;and a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime.Do nothing in haste;look well to each step;and from the beginning,think what may be the end."' -Edward Whymper,first man to climb the Matterhorn "Many years I lived in cities, roaming the dusty crowded streets. Tried drugs,but couldn't make immortal; What's the use of all that noise and money? I'll sleep by the creek and purify my ears; all day long clouds come and go; If your heart was like mine, You'd get it and be right here. -(Mtguide paraphrase of Han Shan, Cold Mountain Poems by Gary Snyder)

Hi Thinker; I got Ilgner's book and worked through it about a year and a half ago and found it very useful.I've practiced Zen meditation for over 30 yrs, and so have found many parallels between the two experiences;meditation and climbing tend to inform each other.Ilgner's book simply does the best job I've seen so far of bringing Zen/warrior's approach to bear on specific issues of performance,focus,perception,fear,frustration,etc.,in climbing.And in many ways,Ilgner brings climbing to the level of a practice or "Way"(path,discipline,teaching) in and of itself.It's a little pricy($ 60+) but it's definitely been worth the price of a Camalot,to me.And of course,it's not just a book you read,it's a course and a workbook that you compete chapter by chapter,and so it teaches you his method of observing your thoughts and reactions,and how to work with them,in other words,how to work on yourself.Sort of like teaching a man to fish,rather than just giving him a fish.Once you learn how to learn,you can apply it anything.I think this book is useful for a lot more than just climbing. Oh,and BTW,not only has my climbing improved,but I get a lot more enjoyment from it whether I succeed or not;like Alex Lowe said about the best climber being the one who's having the most fun,being present in the moment and finding all you need right then and there.

Say, wouldn't a rat's ass be considered part of Mother's nature? This would mean she could indeed give a rat ass. I will see you 2 rat's asses and raise you a snafflehounds belly.

Touche'