Mtguide

We used a cordless drill one time to celebrate the completion of work at a jobsite.More ceremonial than practical,but it worked.

There's definitely still a lot of confusion and lack of verification as to what Castaneda did or didn't do,what is fact or fiction in his writings.what is known is that Don Juan is,or was(not sure if he's still living)a real person.My teacher was invited to a very secret conference held by the schools of Anthropology and Psychology/Psychiatry at UC Riverside in 1975,and the surprise guests were Castaneda and Don Juan.From what little I was able to glean from my teacher,in 3 days of questioning and discussion by a regular holy man jam of eminent researchers,Zens,gurujis,physicists,biochemists,philosophers,shrinks,Gestaltists,shamans,etc.,Don Juan pretty much blew everyone away,left a lot of people scratching their heads,with some feeling to see if their heads were still there.At one point a very eminent psychiatric researcher asked Don Juan,"Well,these 'entities',the 'allies' and 'powers' and 'enemies',these are just phenomena or perceptions in the mind,isn't that right?I mean,they don't actually exist in reality,do they?" To which Don Juan replied,"Oh no;they exist indeed;they are actually"there".Stunned silence all around for some minutes,followed by nervous rustling of papers and coughs,people shifting uncomfortably in their chairs.Wrong guy to ask if you were looking for some kind of solid ground.No photographs or recordings were allowed,and Castaneda and Don Juan arrived and departed the room while all attendees were to remain seated.One drawing submitted was later approved by Don Juan,after he had taken an eraser and removed a little more than half of one side of the face.I don't know; for all we know DJ could be a cab driver from Tijuana or Brooklyn-but they are damned interesting reading,these books. Anyone else know of more recent/complete material on this? Oh,and hmm,I guess we WERE talking about climbing,yeah?

Yeah,but it's just fun to run down the posts in flat mode and see what people have to say;you can think all around the ideas and issues as you're seeing it, get a sense of the entire discussion and by the time you've decided whether or not to chip in,you pretty well have in hand what you're going to say.Seems more conversational.

You got a good start,there,bucko...

Any Zen master or true warrior/teacher such as a 'man of knowledge' like Don Juan would agree that there are as many paths to realization as there are people.It's worth noting,though,if you've read the other Castaneda books,that,beginning with the second book,"A Separate Reality",when Castaneda goes back to visit the brujo Don Juan again,things change bigtime,fast.Expecting to continue further explorations into the nature of reality and knowledge through hallucinogens,Castaneda has spent time gathering more peyote and datura,etc..Presenting this to Don Juan when he arrives,he is taken aback at the reaction;"Ah!Idiot!,says Don Juan;"that was just to loosen up your thick skull,to get you out of your books and paper and pencils,always writing everything down,trying to find patterns and methods,always organizing everything with your stupid science! I had to shake your ass up,get you to break up all that nonsense! The drugs have nothing to do with any of it,nothing whatsoever! For you, this was necessary;for those who live in this desert,they are already alive to begin with.Now throw that garbage out;we have work to do."(Not verbatim;I don't have the book here in front of me, but that's the gist of what Don Juan says). And from there,(at least as Castaneda writes it) the real Journey begins.It's a lot bigger,deeper and stranger than Castaneda had even begun to imagine.He begins to find out much more about why 'brujo' means "sorcerer".And it's all substance-free.At one point Don Juan even comments on bars and smoking;when Castaneda narrowly escapes being killed by an evil entity after an evening of drinking and dancing at a cantina,Don Juan tells him,"You had no business wasting your time in such a place, with that kind of foolish idleness; next time you may not be so lucky." Later,walking through a crowd gathered to hear a political revolutionary,Don Juan points out to Castaneda that the speaker is smoking and gesturing with the lit cigarette as he speaks;"He can't really be serious about anything he's saying..",says don Juan. That's what I like about Ilgner's book and way of training,and about Zen;there are no shortcuts:you have to do the work,grapple with the difficulties,sit down,gather the mind and look into things with persistence and determination."All true paths lead through mountains";my teacher once just barely made it back in time from a night of drunken partying to get to his teacher's place for morning meditation and breakfast,showing up soaking wet and covered head to toe in thick black mud,after frantically pedaling his bicycle clear across a huge city in pouring rain,and falling into a big mud puddle at the bottom of the steps.The teacher behaved as if nothing was the least bit out of the ordinary,made not a single comment on his appearance or condition,and continued as usual;his student had shown up on time,had done what he had agreed to do.But about six months later,during a break in a week long sesshin(meditation intensive),his teacher came up beside him,and gently nudging an elbow in his ribs,said quietly to my teacher,"You know,you can do whatever you want,if you can remain clear; but if you can't remain clear,you can't do it."My teacher who hadn't thought of the incident in months,knew instantly what he was talking about. The point is,drugs,etc.are not the point;what you experience there is just another state of mind-and once you get that point,you don't need to do drugs anymore.Ilgner talks about 'observing' your thoughts,feelings,reactions;my teacher used to say"keep a watchful and elegant mind;but don't get too attached to that,either".Although I know that quite a few people climb,operate heavy equipment etc. behind gage or brew,I don't climb,ski or drive stoned or on anything else,and I refuse to climb(in particular) with anyone who is.I really enjoy it more when I'm clear and truly free,direct confrontation with reality.When you get it out of your own juices,you know it's you,not anything else,doing the talking.And it only takes a split second to make a mistake;lots of times when we get back to the car after a climb,we'll say that now comes the most dangerous part of the trip:driving home.Good to be clear for that,too.Then you can go out and do it again next time. --------------------------------------------- Remember that courage and strength are naught without prudence;and a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime.Do nothing in haste;look well to each step;and from the beginning,think what may be the end."' -Edward Whymper,first man to climb the Matterhorn "Many years I lived in cities, roaming the dusty crowded streets. Tried drugs,but couldn't make immortal; What's the use of all that noise and money? I'll sleep by the creek and purify my ears; all day long clouds come and go; If your heart was like mine, You'd get it and be right here. -(Mtguide paraphrase of Han Shan, Cold Mountain Poems by Gary Snyder)

Hi Thinker; I got Ilgner's book and worked through it about a year and a half ago and found it very useful.I've practiced Zen meditation for over 30 yrs, and so have found many parallels between the two experiences;meditation and climbing tend to inform each other.Ilgner's book simply does the best job I've seen so far of bringing Zen/warrior's approach to bear on specific issues of performance,focus,perception,fear,frustration,etc.,in climbing.And in many ways,Ilgner brings climbing to the level of a practice or "Way"(path,discipline,teaching) in and of itself.It's a little pricy($ 60+) but it's definitely been worth the price of a Camalot,to me.And of course,it's not just a book you read,it's a course and a workbook that you compete chapter by chapter,and so it teaches you his method of observing your thoughts and reactions,and how to work with them,in other words,how to work on yourself.Sort of like teaching a man to fish,rather than just giving him a fish.Once you learn how to learn,you can apply it anything.I think this book is useful for a lot more than just climbing. Oh,and BTW,not only has my climbing improved,but I get a lot more enjoyment from it whether I succeed or not;like Alex Lowe said about the best climber being the one who's having the most fun,being present in the moment and finding all you need right then and there.

Say, wouldn't a rat's ass be considered part of Mother's nature? This would mean she could indeed give a rat ass. I will see you 2 rat's asses and raise you a snafflehounds belly.

Touche'

"Dude,where's my car?"

Hey Dutch; Sorry to hear of your troubles;I'm certainly not in your situation of having just returned from overseas duty,so I'm not sure how that affects things.But the company I use is Verizon,and I've found them to be absolutely courteous and ready to serve both in person when I first went to get my cell phone about 2 1/2 yrs ago(and I was dressed in my construction clothes,pretty scruffy looking),and over the phone as well.The service has been great regarding useability or utility(I called my sister in Eugene from the N.side of Mt.Hood,for example)and they're very accomodating anytime there's a question about the bill.Give'em a try,best of luck to you.And my deepest thanks for your service to us while overseas and here at home.

What,no data storage or retrieval?And how about file sharing?

That's what we call structure;some sort of framework is absolutely necessary,I completely agree.Where I feel the use of guns in this case went a bit over the line is that students in a regular high school,while carrying the potential for serious threat,are in a little different category from those in a reform school or other institution for young people who are known offenders.I've spent several seasons as a wilderness guide working with at-risk youth,and they are not innocent kids.They can be extremely dangerous,crafty and resourceful,and many of them carry a huge load of anger and depression.These are kids coming out of rehabs and lockups,lots of them with some pretty long and scary records.One of the most useful things I learned while doing this was to avoid increasing or exacerbating this generalized resentment;and that DOESN'T mean coddling or going easy in any way.The rules are the rules--and the consequences are real,swiftly and impartially applied.Never at any time were we permitted to use or carry firearms.I was allowed to carry plastic restraints,to be used only in the most serious extreme.The first season I did this,I found many,many parallels between my former experience of almost 13 years as a working cowboy and professional guide and packer,working with horses and mules,and working with these tough kids.I began to see unmistakeable similarities between rebellious,arrogant,stubborn kids,and untouched,walleyed,roman-nosed,scarrred-up 1400 lb range broncs and shifty mules with lightning hooves and teeth a-snappin'.Refusal behaviors,laying in wait watching for opportunities,misplacing blame,etc.,all just plain as day in these kids,just like a bunch of sullen mules or a spooky bronc with a far away look in his eye.Now, horses are a lot smarter than most people realize,and mules are goddamned smart;they are also extremely sensitive,and it will do you no damned good whatsoever to beat on them or abuse them;they'll take that to heart and be packin' that pain to use on your ass later.No, to get anywhere with intelligent animals,you have to use psychology,applied in very simple and concrete ways.One of the most basic principles of working with horses and mules is: make the right thing comfortable,and the wrong thing,UNcomfortable; not impossible,because that sets up resistance and fulminates resentment,which is gonna result in a horse fight.If that happens,believe me, nobody wins.You've lost an opportunity to gain the trust of the animal,and he's lost the chance to learn,besides having built some new barriers.That can take a lot of time and work to undo.Any of this sounding like teenagers yet? The next step in this progression,as it takes hold,is to use comfort/discomfort in such a manner as to make it seem to the animal that,when they've done the right thing,they think it was their idea,not yours.We all ought to know by now that you really can't MAKE a horse,or another human being,do anything;you have to SHOW 'em,and make it obvious enough that they can figure it out on their own.But the minute they feel like you're trying to tell them what to do,you've lost it.Oh sure,you can coerce,draw guns,beat on them,etc.But what you've done is to kill the spirit of the animal,and the same goes for young people.Sound like any teenagers you know?What kind of lesson do the kids in that hallway REALLY take away,besides the fear of authority?Answer: the Man is indeed more powerful,but the Man is also an asshole who is as scared of us as we are of his guns.The Man therefore carries no true or REAL authority,because he is not the Master of himself,and has to hide behind the threat of violence; therefore, the Man is ,essentially,weak, and not to be respected. Another set of basic principles we used to use is: Firmness,Gentleness,and Consistency.And the old-time cowboy and bronc snapper who told me this also said,if you can't be gentle,for god's sake don't leave out the other two.And then he added that it's one hell of a piss-poor horseman who doesn't have the self-control and genuine caring for the animal, to be gentle.As far as I'm concerned,much the same can be said for anyone whose job is working with young people(and by the way,in a truly enlightened society,isn't that the proper work of ALL adults?) who doesn't have the time,patience and self-mastery to listen,pay attention,read the signals,and with compassion,humor and good nature to fucking EARN the respect and authority required to truly teach and lead by example. Besides being a horse breaker and trainer in the years I cowboyed,I also held a number of positions as a foreman and manager on ranches and pack outfits;and one of the most valuable lessons I learned was to never disrespect or underestimate anyone,especially in front of others,and to never ask anyone to do anything that you would not do yourself.All of the principles I've mentioned above hold true with men as well as horses--believe me,the LAST place you want to be,around a bunch of hard-bitten cowhands,is to be trying to tell them what to do,if you're not willing and able to do it yourself.I later worked my way through graduate school as a heavy construction carpenter/welder,and found the same to be true as a foreman on these jobs.You've got people's lives and safety in your hands-and so do you with a hall full of high school kids,facing drawn guns in the hands of a bunch of nervous cops.No,sorry;but I think,from what little information we have, it was way over the line.Unless the police had definite information and a warrant on a suspect to be detained,it was completely innappropriate;they were lucky nothing more serious happened.But my guess is,they haven't solved one goddamned thing;if they think they had problems now,just wait a while.Those kids will not forget the day that their Principal lost sight of what his title demands of him as a man, and as a teacher and leader of teachers.And the man or woman who follows in his stead,and the rest of the teachers as well,now have a much,much tougher job. One thing about your post that disturbs me is how you refer to the kids you work with,at least the difficult ones(I'm assuming) as assholes.Ever wonder what they think of you?Might be mutual.If so,that's too bad,because to start with we're just people,with all our faults and imperfections.And that's the barrier that I feel will fall only to a way of teaching that begins from a standpoint of respect,high expectations,and no small measure of courage and wisdom on the part of the teacher.Might be useful to watch the movie Stand and Deliver,about the east L.A. high school math teacher who took a REALLY tough class of kids and won the national math exams with them;and this was in a TOUGH school,folks,east L.A. barrios,mon;no place tougher in the country--and I don't believe he ever pulled a heater on anyone to do it.

Absolutely; Bush has repeatedly shown himself to be a liar simply in the way he presents himself and his policies by campaigning to appear moderate or left(compassionate conservative )and then implementing to the right,or whatever will please the right wing business and religious conservatives.The way I was raised,that is called LYING,saying one thing and doing another.To some extent he's just a stooge for Cheney,Rove and Wolfowitz,but he is Texan to the core,and when I was growing up in Ft.Worth,I often heard it said that in business and politics in Texas,the shortest distance between two points was thru a tunnel.Bush and crew have simply brought that way of operating to the national level.He certainly doesn't think that everything he's saying is true,but I think he does believe that it's OK to say whatever needs to be said,to make things move in the desired direction.Furthermore,he and his handlers do actually believe in the rightness of the policies they're pursuing.Dick Cheney was my representive when I lived near the little town of Pinedale,Wyoming for about 10 years from mid 70's to mid 80's.I was very active in local and state environmental issues at the time,and every time he came to town(Pinedale was the county seat)he would set up a table at the public library and anyone who wanted could go talk to him one-on-one for up to 20 or 30 minutes.(Pinedale is a really small town)I have sat across that table face to face with him many,many times,and he is one of the most chillingly manipulative,unfeeling,deceptive men I have ever met.He is Machiavelli's Prince in the flesh,as cool and tough a customer as they come,and I have little doubt that he can literally kill with about as much emotion as you would take a piss.In all my talks with him about our local values of closeness to the land and community,the sanctity of wilderness,the irreplaceable fabric of wild ecosystems,etc., I never once saw the slightest spark of true emotion or empathy; it was like talking to a stone.To him all such concerns are merely matters of commerce and resources,the deployment and distribution of goods,services and power.Since I left that area,just about all the old longtime ranchers in the county have been forced out of business.Who now owns these lands?Dick Cheney,James Baker,Armand Hammer,Adnan Khashoggi,James Watt(remember him?) and various other assorted Reagan/Bush cronies. Cheney is most likely the ACTUAL President of the US right now,and has been since Bush was inaugurated.Bush is the willing,admiring and grateful student,mouthpeice and errand boy.

Hi Monty; the best thing I've found so far is the series put out by National Geographic of interactive maps on CD Rom called TOPO! I bought four 2CD packs covering the entire WA &OR cascades and Olympics for about $80.00.You can roam and search any area,enlarge or reduce to isolate any area,(zoom and magnifier)and it has features that allow you to print out maps on totally waterproof Adventure Paper,that will show routes,coordinates,(grid settings w/ latitudelongitude,UTM)distance and elevation profiles.All in color.It has additional features to allow for linking directly to handheld GPS.I may never need to buy another USGS quad.Bought it at REI.

Hey,it's Belushi's human zit scene from Animal House...

Is this the new Kerouac? Sounds like Neal Cassady on amyl nitrate...

Sounds like not all the kids were actually so innocent--the K9 drug sniffer reacted to about a dozen backpacks & located "residue".Drawn pistols does seem a bit much-but I guess ya never know when some little 90 lb girl might be packin' heat,nunchuks,ninja stars,etc.

The new Smith Rock Guide,Sasquatch, and Weapons of Mass Destruction were last seen traveling arm in arm with Dorothy,Toto,and Osama bin Laden in search of 5.17,weightless pro,termination of FeeDemo,nationalized Universal Climbing Support,and ice in the Columbia Gorge.

Seems to me the real value of pushing it for speed is broadening and deepening your own knowledege of your limits and capabilities--something that can come in mighty handy at a time you're faced with the harsh and unexpected.You never know what you can do till you try--or until you have to. ----------------------------------- "Time is nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once."

Very good,Grasshopper!

I believe that topic is covered under religion,drugs and alchohol.

The Mountain Shop on 628 NE Broadway(right across the street from Les Schwab Tires). Oregon Mountain Community,60 NW Davis.(just off Front St./Naito Pkwy). US Outdoor Store,219 SW Broadway. Next Adventure,426 SE Grand. Also at REI,but you'll pay a mint for 'em. All of the above are listed in the phone book. Cheap used you might find at the REI sidewalk sale every spring and fall,or at Next Adventure,altho those guys have wised up and their prices are no longer such great deals-but it was fun while it lasted.Still they're worth a try.Good luck!

They certainly missed a great opportunity regarding the rangers themselves,especially Darryl Miller and Roger Robinson,the two head rangers.These guys are amazing men,with absolutely incredible backgrounds and experiences on Denali and other great peaks around the world.They are both directly responsible for the fact that there have been so many successful rescues with so few losses incurred in the process.Miller and Robinson were the guys who pretty much established and organized the rescue system at Denali.They could both tell tales that would have put the weenie host in his proper category: just barely beginning to become a pimple on a climber's ass.Darryl Miller made the first circumnavigation of Denali in winter several years ago with Talkeetna climber Mark Stasic;they both presented this epic with slides at the excellent convention on climbing on Denali here in Portland in '97.Both Miller and Robinson have risked their necks in more hair raising rescues over the years than a whole barrelful of climbing rangers could match in several lifetimes.Talk about brass balls and cool heads.Nat'l.Geo definitely needs to go back and do the story right,leave the weenie whiner home,and yeah,Lucy Liu naked at basecamp would probly be about what it would take to get a big enough viewer audience to do justice to just how underappreciated these guys are.Here's a for the weenie,and afor the incredible climbing rangers of Denali.

Exactly;excellent.