JayB

Wow - That's an oblique request for beta if I've ever seen one - who knows maybe you're just into irony* - but assuming that you're really looking for useful information from this site you can try something really unconventional and...post a request for specific beta in the "North Cascades" forum. It's a bit of a stretch but who knows, it just might work. *Denouncing drivel/useless posts by means of the very same thing.

quote: Originally posted by pope: quote:Originally posted by Lambone: So here is a question Mr. "bolts are bad for the environment," What kinda trail is this your talkin about? Is it established? Switchbacks? Or is it just another climber's scar leading from point A to point B in the shortest time possible? Just curious, thanks in advance for the clarification. Firstly, thanks but no thanks for attibuting that quote to me. What I said is, bolts are ugly and alien to the mountain environment.... Some of the Ayatollah’s posts concerning bolting and the environment: “I suspect people won't join my cause, but a significant number of people have similar feelings. My point is that enjoyment per se is not justification for permanently damaging a public resource, and that those who would engage in this are valuing their personal gratification over wilderness preservation, over respecting a limited resource and those who wish to keep it natural. Again, I don't expect people to come join "my" cause, but I would like people to think before taking this construction-zone approach to "traditional" cliffs. That's what would seem to make sense for everybody on either side of this argument” “I could have a good time doing all kinds of things: firing a gun within city limits, messin'around with your wife, beating up nice girls at a Mardi Gras celebration downtown, driving my motorcycle down the sidewalk,etc. Enjoyment is not justification when other factors must be considered, like the fact that cliffs are PUBLIC space and, therefore, should be used in such a way that doesn't step on others' toes. Like the fact that bolts damage rock and do so permanently. To you, enjoyment is enough motivation to bolt up a sport route, or to endorse this practice by clipping those bolts. Your enjoyment comes at a cost to me, however, and that's why we need to get back to the idea that cliffs are a limited, public resource which should be preserved.” “It's just an opinion, and it's not just my opinion, and it's not the opinion that's so special, it's the wilderness. In the city, I accept certain evils as part of our culture, but I try to minimize my impact. When I go to the hills, I try to escape that stuff. Peace out bro.” More of the same can be found here: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000522 Just having some fun here – and I think Lambone has a point. Launching into tirades about how bolts desecrate the environment and then bragging about the new convenience trail that you’ve blazed up instead of taking the existing trail is the literal definition of “glaring contradiction.” Hopefully we’ll be spared the “I condemn bolting because I am the epitome of the environmentally conscious climber” line from now on.

I'm sorry to see a generally good natured guy revert to name calling to enhance his argument, but the fact remains that even if you remove any mention of bolts, the content of your quotes below (in which you claim to be an advocate of wilderness preservation) + taking a convenience trail to the base of a popular cliff instead of following the established trail (blatant disregard for preservation) = contradiction. Try if you wish, but you simply cannot insult your way out of this conclusion. quote: Originally posted by pope: My point is that enjoyment per se is not justification for permanently damaging a public resource, and that those who would engage in this are valuing their personal gratification over wilderness preservation, over respecting a limited resource and those who wish to keep it natural. “I could have a good time doing all kinds of things: firing a gun within city limits, messin'around with your wife, beating up nice girls at a Mardi Gras celebration downtown, driving my motorcycle down the sidewalk,etc. Enjoyment is not justification when other factors must be considered, like the fact that cliffs are PUBLIC space and, therefore, should be used in such a way that doesn't step on others' toes. Your enjoyment comes at a cost to me, however, and that's why we need to get back to the idea that cliffs are a limited, public resource which should be preserved.”

The word from the internet rumor mill (rec.climbing http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&threadm=abbduc%24kh%242%40reader1.panix.com&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Drec.climbing%26hl%3Den%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch )is that the recent editorial had its genesis when quite a few specialty retailers and US manufacturers threw a tantrum when Climbing and/or Rock and Ice ran an ad from a Dutch website in their last issue that actually listed the prices for the goods that they were selling. I guess so long as Barrabes restricted its add copy to “Check Prices” it was okay (?). Supposedly (“It’s on the internet so it must be true”) the specialty retailers sent back their entire shipments of the magazines, and a few manufacturers called and threatened to pull their advertising and voila – we have an editorial asking consumers to stop buying their goods from European retailers and continue paying over twice as much in the US instead. In my opinion, a magazine dedicated to climbers would have better served its readership by demanding that US manufacturers, distributors, and retailers explain why it is that American consumers should continue to pay twice as much as their European counterparts for the very same goods instead of going to bat for a system that is currently working in the interest of everyone except the consumer. See rant below if imprisoned, terminally bored, etc… In my opinion, they (the folks in the outdoor biz here in the US ) have quite a bit of explaining to do as it’s not: -Tarrifs: The current tarriff levied on climbing equipment is 4%. -Production costs: Production costs in Europe are comparable to, if not slightly higher than in America. -Distribution costs: Commercial shipping on containers and semi-trailers probably adds 2 to 4 percent to the cost of any imported consumer item, tops. -The exchange rate: The current exchange rate gives US consumers about 10% more purchasing power when we’re buying goods denominated in Euros. -Retailing expenses: There’s no evidence to suggest that they’re higher in Europe than in the US either. -The size of the market: It may be true that a greater percentage of European public climbs than in America, but it’s hardly a sport for the masses over there. Even if a greater fraction of the European public participates than in the US, a fractionally higher rate of participation does not translate into goods that can be sold at a profit for around half of the retail price that we’re paying. -The size of the market, again: I’ve heard some speculation that because the market for climbing gear is limited, manufacturers and retailers have no incentive to lower their prices because that won’t translate into greater sales. Therefore – why not charge as much as you can for each unit and maximize your profits. This argument simply does not hold up because the reality is that the market for EVERY good is limited by demand, be it concrete, crude oil, or automobiles – or ice tools. Therefore, it does not follow that having a finite market leads to high/fixed prices – the only thing that can do that is eliminating competition. If any manufacturer is selling a good within finite market and can increase their market share by offering an equivalent product for a lower price, they can expand their sales and their profits at the expense of their competitors even if the size of the overall market stays fixed. It’s just a matter of calculating how many additional units you have to sell in order to compensate for the lower profit margin per-unit. At that point the manufacturers who are being undercut can either lower their prices or hope that consumers will be willing to pay a premium for what they have to offer. The fact that manufacturers and retailers can sell their goods at a profit in Europe for less than half of what they are charging here is about as clear a refutation of the notion that the size of the market dictates that we have to pay $235 for ice tools, $140 for rock shoes, etc. Taking a look as US produced goods on sale in Europe is especially revealing. It’s very often cheaper to buy US goods overseas and pay to have them shipped across the Atlantic twice –once at retail rates !- than to buy locally. And on a related topic – if you as a consumer are willing to pay twice as much at a shop for the expertise, hands on inspection, etc – you are certainly free to do so. I just don’t think that those of us who do not value those services should be forced to pay for them if we don’t value or want them. If anyone out there actually has some factual information to share about the situation, I’d love to hear it. I’d be especially interested in hearing about the US distribution system and/or the contractual obligations (price range) that retailers have to abide by if they wish to sell a particular product.

The Clover Leaf sounds pretty cool. I think I remember older folks raving about the pizza there during while growing up in Lakewood. As for the Java Jive - just joking about that one but I'll have to drop in there eventually.

Java Jive?

quote: Originally posted by Dwayner: Dudes: I'm surprised that there isn't more talk of top-roping. Virtually everything at Vantage can be top roped (except maybe a couple of them free-standing "Feathers".) Such an approach would have saved that place from becoming the bolted atrocity that it is. No disrespect to Professor Dwayner here - judging by his posts I think he is a cool guy - but when he and Pope post on bolting issues it often provides me the opportunity to voice a contrary opinion. While it is certainly true that most of the routes over at Vantage could be toproped, and the entire area restricted to toprope climbing, I for one am certainly glad that's not the case. Most of the rock at the top of the entablature is decidedly less than sound, which at least to my mind makes it unsuitable for establishing any sort of permanent anchor that you'll be entrusting your life to. Not to mention the fact that having lots of folks milling about at the top of the mesa would present quite a rockfall hazard for the climbers below. And further, more traffic on the mesa-tops means more damage to the landscape up there that we're all supposed to be concerned about preserving in order to maintain our access to that crag. Perhaps there is an exception or two out there, but it's generally not the bolts, but rather the impact on the landscape around the crags that imperils access. More bolts generally bring more climbers, but that's certainly not always the case. Eldorado Canyon is hardly a sporto-area but probably gets more climber days per year than any other area in the country. Thankfully the climbing community there has taken an active role in mitigating the the impact that they have on the park, and are no longer fretting about access to the crags contained within it. And lastly - on a side note - the opinion that toproping is equivalent to leading (be it sport, trad, ice, etc) while worth about as much as my own is not one that I'd encountered prior to logging on to this forum. An interesting perspective, but one that I would venture to say is restricted to a rather small pool of vocal advocates and not consistent with the views held by the overwhelming majority of climbers out there, and as such perhaps not the most constructive perspective when it comes to questions of new route development. quote: ...Also, them old scary routes...if you add additional bolts to "make it safer", than you destroy the character of the route. Hey - here's a point of agreement! Retro-bolting sucks and should not be tolerated. However, replacing old, mank fixed hardware is the shiznit and should be encouraged. If the route restoration posse that's forming on this site ever gets through chopping bolts and turns their attention to replacing questionable fixed gear, I'd be happy to contribute to their efforts. Hopefully the members of the self-anointed old-school will at least concede that it's okay to replace rotting 1/4" bolts with solid hardware. Believe it or not, I actually ran into a guy once who was vehemently opposed to replacing the ultra-mank, fatigued, and corroded baby-angles that proliferate in the Garden of the Gods with reliable, modern hardware. In interesting perspective, to be sure, and while one can rightly salute is zeal and machismo, I would contest that his opinion is not one that the rest of us should be olbiged to cater to. And finally - to the actual question about bolts. I think that mattp pretty much had it right. In general, I think that if the section of rock is unprotectable by other means then a bolt is the right solution. The only other caveat I would add is that one should consider local traditions and ethics before doing so. To use two polar opposites the point, at a place like Shelf Road its a safe bet that you could put a bolt anywhere you like (on a new route) and not offend anyone, while at Turkey Rocks or other areas nearby a new bolt anywhere would be viewed as an abomination, the old-school alarm claxons would ring throughout the front range, and the bolt would be and chopped within a week, if not sooner. Just as an example of considering local ethics/traditions - at a crag near my former home in Colorado Springs, there was a small, obscure crag with a belay-station that seemed like a good candidate for a permanent anchor. Several lines converged there and many of them were frequently top-roped, with the anchor generally being accesed by means of an exposed traverse. If you led the routes, it'd be much safer and more convenient to rap off, not to mention the fact that you'd be on and off the route much more quickly, allowing more groups to access the routes during any given day. However, I noted the general paucity of bolts at the crag and the fact that folks had been climbing there for quite a while without such an anchor and decided against it. A good solution might have been to set up a swaged stainless-steel and chain "runner" to serve in the place of the rat's nest of corroding nylon that often collected there - a more or less permanent but non-bolted anchor. Seems like a good compromise that might work elsewhere. [ 04-24-2002, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

I've in and out of town travelling for a while and haven't had the opportunity to check on this site as much as I did latley. Good to see that that His Holiness can still troll with the best of them. Seriously - if all this is about is removing bolts on lines that take natural pro or those that have been established at toprope problems I doubt that anyone will be too upset about that. Sounds like you guys have the expertise and the tools to do the job without damaging the rock any further. Good luck. Hopefully you'l be just as active in your efforts to preserve the land around the crags as well when someone organizes an effort along those lines.

I've used the ti-bloc set up this fall during and ascent of some easy AI stuff on the backside of Flattop in RMNP. We were using two 60Mx8.5mm ropes, and were able to climb 800-1000 feet in a single long pitch with about 10 screws and four TI-blocs placed at full ropelength intervals along the way. We were essentially just taking the technique for a test drive to determine how well it would work in practice. There was no discernable difference in the rope drag, and the additional peace of mind that came along with knowing that I would not be yanked off of the pitch if my second was tagged by a stone, snow sluffs, and miscellaneous other Acts of God(we both felt solid enough on the climb that a fall for any other reason was exceptionally unlikely, or we would have belayed the climb pitch-by-pitch)was nice. Would I recommend the technique? Well, if I were going out with that same partner or someone equally competent I wouldn't hesitate to do use it again myself, with a couple of important caveats. I think that the concerns about rope damage are legitimate, and after talking about on the way home we made plans to drop test the setup on a local WI2 icefall with a piece of rope leftover from a debacle on Hallets (we never did get around to it as we spent the rest of the season on WI stuff). We're pretty good about keeping slack out of the system, but the potential for rope damage is certainly there. Is catastrophic rope failure likely? No, but nonetheless we decided to restrict the use of this technique to routes where: 1) The second falling is and extremely remote possibility 2)We need to move fast because of rockfall, potential for lightning or other bad weather, impending darkness or the sheer length of the route, and 3)the remainder of the route (normally rock) is easy enough that we can get away with using a single rope if we had to. Kieners route on Longs via the Lamb's Slide Couloir comes to mind. After reading through all of these caveats, and knowing that the rule for simulclimbing is that no one falls, you may well be thinking "Why Bother." And if you're thinking that, you probably shouldn't. But for us the extra protection from Acts of God or a catastrophic bit of clumsiness while simulclimbing was worth the trade off - the potential for some sheath damage in the extremely unlikely event of the second falling.

I've ordered gear from both sportextreme.com and barrabes.com have been very pleased with the experience I've had with both. Both shops have fulfilled my orders accurately and had them on my doorstep within a week. The primary differences between the two are the selection and the shipping options which they offer. Barrabes.com has a much better selection, but they will only ship your order to the US via DHL, which is super-fast but will add $15-25 to your order in most cases. If you can find what you want at sportextreme.com, they'll ship the order via ups, and the charges have ranged between $5 and $10 for my orders. The prices you'll find on the two sites are comparable, but on the whole I'd say that they're typically just a bit lower on barrabes. One nice benefit of ordering from either outfit is that since your purchases will be shipped outside of the EU, they are exempt from the Euro wide value added tax. You may be hit with a bill for customs, but the tarriff on mountaineering equipment is only 4%, a paltry sum in comparison to the amount you'll save. I saved $220 on a single pair of boots alone! The only other comment I'll add is that I hope that the additional publicity which these sites are bound to receive does not result in situations like we have at MEC now - whereby the manufacturers/distributors and the retailers here in the US have successfully put the kibosh on any shipments of name-brand goods from MEC to consumers here in the USA. I'm not happy about being subject to a pricing model in which the manufacturers pad the pockets of the distributors and the retailers at the consumer's expense. Until they change their ways and allow the retailers to compete with one another for the consumer's benefit, I'm going to continue taking my business overseas. End of rant. Good luck with your article.

Anyone interested in the relative strength of cordalette materials should take a look at this report put together by Chris Harmston of BD. Essentially, they found that despite posessing greater tensile strength, the high-tech cords failed at dramatically lower loads than 7mm nylon when knotted, and rapidly lost strength after being flexed repeatedly. Most folks I know who have read the report have ditched their high tech cords and gone back to 7mm nylon. Read it and judge for yourself. http://www.amga.com/info/Comparative%20Tes%C9rength%20Cord.pdf

I can't recall seeing any reports of a cordalette of any type failing under any circumstances. Or of any anchor-specific material failing in a real world scenario. I suspect that even with a cord that tests at a considerably lower strength than 7mm there's still a huge margin for error an any cordalette anchor that's reasonably well constructed. Anyone else ever heard of accidents of this type? Most incidents of total anchor failure that I've read about have involved the protection pulling rather than the anchor material snapping. Anyhow - I was using 7mm nylon before ever coming across the article because it was cheaper and seemed to do the job, but was thinking of paying the extra money for the additional strength that the techy cords supposedly offered prior to reading the article. After reading through it, my thought was - why pay more for something that's not as strong or durable? If I had already purchased the cord though, I'd probably keep using it until I needed to replace it.

I've had the Serendipity jacket for about 6 months or so and have had it out in all manner of winter conditions and here's my take on the jacket: Breathability: Beats the hell out of any hard-shell jacket that I've ever worn. Gore-tex is not even in the same league. Perfect for aerobic activities, alpine climbs, and long approaches. Fantastic for routes in RMNP. It's a bit stuffy when I'm really working hard, but it's vastly better than enduring the sweatbox inside a hard-shell. Durability: Good but it has its limits. It does tend to snag easily, but I've been able to fix it by cutting off the threads I've pulled and it's no worse for wear. I'd much rather deal with a snag than a tear. No problem with pilling on the top. The pants have pilled a bit but that's addressed easily enough with one of those lint-remover deals. Waterproofness: pretty good all things considered. It certainly won't keep the water off like a shell will, but that's not what it's designed for. The fabric's primary strength is its breathability and versatility. Early in the season I got on a climb and just got absolutely hosed by drippage - I had 1/2" of verglass on my helmet by the top - and I stayed dry. It was below freezing of course, but I was impressed. The Nikwax wash-in treatment seemed to help quite a bit. The bottom line: best all-purpose outerwear I've ever used, hands down. Having said that, I think that Dan is right when stating that the material is probably better suited to the Rockies(where I've been using it)than the Cascades. Something which sacrificies breathability for water-resistance, like the dimension fabric might be a bit better for that climate. However - I'm so much happier with this stuff than Goretex, especially for aerobic activities, that it'll have to be a straight-up downpour before I reach for the shell. I should also add that the fit is fantastic. I friggin hated not being able to see the gear I was trying to pull off of my rack because it was obscured by a bulge of fabric on my (old) coat. The stuff from Cloudveil has a much trimmer cut than that offered by most other companies which suits most climbers pretty well. As a consequence of this, you can look down and actually see all of the gear around your waist. Also, despite the trim fit can also raise your arms over your head and not pull the jacket out of your harness. This is due in part to the cut, and in part to the stretchy Schoeller fabric. [ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: JayB ] [ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]

The Tikka Rocks. Get One. Since I already have one, I opted to use the dividend check to pick up a .4 Camalot and some keylock biners for racking my nuts. Hopefully that will mean days of the racking biner catching on the harness when I'm trying to get the things off the rack in a hurry....

Blah, Blah, Blah - fame, fortune, groupies -they mean nothing to me. The deal was for the neon pink tigerstripe tights it's all just talk until I get them in the mail. And yet you are shameless enough to continue using the quote without having made the proper payment. This from a man who purports to abide by a severe code of ethics. Sheesh!

POPE: Please read the message in the "Come on Ray" thread immediately concerning the royalties we agreed upon for use of my quote

POPE(!): I have yet to receive the pink-leopard skin tights, headband, and manicure kit that we agreed upon as payment for use of that quote. If I don't receive the aforementioned items pronto I'll have to sue for copyright infringement. I have a photo-shoot at Shelf coming up this Saturday and the aesthetics will really suffer if I do not have my outfit!

Hey Mr. Pope: Different topic - same thread. As I've said before I am with you when you with respect to keeping additional bolts off of existing routes and away from cracks, and limiting their use as much as possible in wilderness areas and strongholds of traditional climbing. I've often heard you mention how upsetting it is to find new/additional bolts on routes in these areas and have wondered just how widespread this problem really is in areas where you climb. I've heard of a route or two that's been retrobolted out in the Platte and although I'm far from an authority on the matter or the area, as I can recall the bolts were removed in fairly short order and no one was especially upset or surprised when this happened. Most folks I climb with were in agreement with me when they concluded that the bolters should have known better - that sort of thing just doesn't fly out there. Hell - someone even chopped the freaking rap-anchors off of the first pitch of a popular climb at Turkey Rocks that virtually no one tops out on - 90% rap off after the first pitch, hence the rap anchors. Not something I'm a big fan of but hey - that's just the way things seem to work at Turkey so you either do without the fixed anchor or climb elsewhere.* So anyway - an honest question - which wilderness routes/existing trad routes (other than DDD)have been bolted or retro-bolted lately and what has the response been? Are they still there? Have they been removed? Just wondering... *Side note - a few routes out there have rap anchors that consist of swaged, plastic-coated steel cables placed runner style around a big chockstone or horn, with chains and/or rap rings hung from the cables. Kind of a neat system as you can rap-off with out leaving gear or a cluster of slings behind, and establishing such an anchor does not involve placing bolts, which the local ethic seems to prohibit or at least strongly discourages. Might not work everywhere but seems like a functional compromise for that particular crag... [ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]

quote: Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman: I dont think I have left any trash of bolts on the rock. Why do you select me since I hace expressed dismay to clean up someone els's trash? My post wasn't directed at anyone in particular, actually. Sorry of it seemed otherwise. I was just stating that it would be nice if everyone who was sincerely concerned about the impact that climbing has on the Coulee, or anywhere else, would take some constructive action to restore the area that they're concerned with. The bolt vs trad issue and the climber impact issues at the Coulee are hardly exclusive to that crag. Climbers and land managers at most popular climbing areas have had to wrestle with these same issues before. From what I've seen they can be solved if folks who use the area are willing to pitch in to help mitigate climber impact in some fashion. And, if you really feel like bolts literally fall into the same category as trash - fine. We don't have to agree on that point. But hopefully if you like the climbing over there enough to preserve it you'll contribute to the efforts to restore/clean-up the landscape from time to time.

If only everyone who expressed their dismay at the impact that climber traffic has on the Coulee would take part in clean-up and/or restoration efforts over there the place would probably look a whole lot more pristine than it does now...

Mr. Dwayner: While there’s no mistaking the fact that I was advocating a position that differs from your own, I injected the overblown rhetoric into the post as a form of self mockery in an attempt to kill off the thread on a light note. Especially the bit about the term “Dis” - which, for the record, I think you are right about. Really. Seemed like a segue into the prescriptive vs. descriptive debate would be an easy way to spoof the old-school vs. new school arguments just a bit. Looks like I’m the only one that got the joke though....(echo)...hello... Anyhow, thanks for being a good sport and a fine apostle of your creed. When I get out to Washington the first round of ether is on me.* *Joke [ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]

I saw Guest#11 making a valiant attempt to reply to the "Hanger Replacement at Vantage" thread this morning....

It's back from the dead...The Frankenthread...Run for your lives!!! Dwayner: You have my thanks for maintaining a civil and refreshingly light-hearted tone as well. Yes, the “Don’t dis it if you can’t do it*” ethos is an opinion, not an argument. I’m certainly ready to concede that point, but in so doing, can’t help but point out that the same label applies to any ethical standard that one might adhere to with respect to climbing – even the vaunted ground-up clean-trad ethic. Which, I might add, is a fine one and my hat is off to all of those who adhere to it at all costs. People who hold themselves to such a rigid standard when surrounded by the constant temptation to do otherwise command a certain amount of respect, even if it’s not a standard I’d want to adhere myself. Sort of like the vows of chastity, poverty, etc. undertaken by various ascetic sects around the world. They and their temples should be left unmolested so that they may continue to practice their faith – which in terms of climbing means keeping the bolts off of established routes and keeping new bolts to an absolute minimum on new routes in areas where that ethic prevails. However, where I draw the line is when folks who adhere to a certain creed insist that the rest of the world should abide by their dictums or be damned. Accordingly, while a set of ethics which demands that climbers abstain from placing any bolts whatsoever works in some areas, there are plenty of others where, at least in the eyes of the vast majority of the climbing population doing so is just plain silly – Rifle, Shelf Road, and Vantage (on the faces not the cracks) come to mind. I’ve heard the arguments for complete abstinence – preserving the opportunity for future climbers to free solo death routes (just look at all of the climbers clamoring for the opportunity today… , equating drilling a 3/8ths bolt to the environmental equivalent to another Valdez or Chernobyl, etc. etc. and they inevitably come off as desperate, if not downright Quixotic, attempts to force the no-bolting creed beyond its proper boundaries. Sort of like a Franciscan monk extolling the virtues of chastity in the middle of a whorehouse. And just like the aforementioned Monk, advocates of sensible restraints on bolting would make a lot more headway, in my opinion, if they eased up on the condemnation and damnation if they were to confine their sermons to the proper venues and pick their battles a bit more carefully. Otherwise most climbers (folks who likely include bouldering and sport climbing in their retinue) will inevitably regard them in much they same way they view the crazy-eyed street proselytizers sporting a bottle of Night Train in one hand and a “Repent or Perish” placard in the other – that is, as zealots whose perspective is so divorced from reality that it needn’t even be acknowledged, much less taken seriously, and who’s concern for broadcasting their own righteousness far outweighs any ostensible concern they may have for the cause they’re railing on behalf of. However, if the great bolt jihad is waged on the right battlefields – big granite formations, alpine routes, and other miscellaneous trad strongholds – I’m willing to listen, and will most likely agree with you. Just a thought…back to the sit start… *And as far as the term, “Dis” is concerned, I’m willing to wager that this, like many other neologisms from days past will make its way into everyday language much to the chagrin of prescriptive lexicographers everywhere. It’s not my favorite word, but I can’t think of any other substitutes which would convey the same meaning. I wouldn’t expect any less from you given you’re views on bolting, but thought I’d offer up a quote from the granddaddy of all would-be keepers of the prescriptive faith: “Of the event of this work, for which, having laboured it with so much application, I cannot but have some degree of parental fondness, it is natural to form conjectures. Those who have been persuaded to think well of my design, require that it should fix our language, and put a stop to those alterations which time and chance have hitherto been suffered to make in it without opposition. With this consequence I will confess that I flattered myself for a while; but now begin to fear that I have indulged expectation which neither reason nor experience can justify. When we see men grow old and die at a certain time one after another, from century to century, we laugh at the elixir that promises to prolong life to a thousand years; and with equal justice may the lexicographer be derided, who being able to produce no example of a nation that has preserved their words and phrases from mutability, shall imagine that his dictionary can embalm his language, and secure it from corruption and decay, that it is in his power to change sublunary nature, or clear the world at once from folly, vanity, and affectation. With this hope, however, academies have been instituted, to guard the avenues of their languages, to retain fugitives, and repulse intruders; but their vigilance and activity have hitherto been vain; sounds are too volatile and subtile for legal restraints; to enchain syllables, and to lash the wind, are equally the undertakings of pride, unwilling to measure its desires by its strength.” -Samuel Johnson [ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: JayB ] [ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]

Anyone ever seen Pope and Coach in the same place? Hmmmmm....

quote: Originally posted by pope: JayB, you have a beautiful way with words! May I borrow this for my signature? One must be mindful of one's audience. Sometimes you've just got to speak in the same langauge that the natives use in order to communicate with them Seriously though, You can use the quote as long as you respect the copyright and give me a fair cut of the royalties. I'll even print it on a T-shirt for a nominal fee. Order now and I'll include free headband and wristbands for no extra charge... [ 02-15-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]