JayB

quote: Originally posted by JayB: No shit --- still there eh? Last time I ran into him at the UW wall he was regaling some climber visiting from South Africa with tales of the connections between Steve Largent, the CIA, and the Cali Cartel or something. Yipes! I wasn't making something up to slight the guy - that conversation really happened. For an hour. He didn't seem like a bad guy at all - just very eccentric. I think that even his closest friends would admit that.

quote: Originally posted by Dwayner: WARNING TO TRADSTERS: This climbxmedia site will indeed MAKE YOU SICK!!!. It's a bizarre celebration of all that is against the very fiber of our being: the glorification of sport climbing, "comps" and bouldering. Pope: Hopefully you'll forgive me for misinterpreting the above as something other than a generic critique of climbers who employ poor style. Seemed like yet another straight-up, wholesale rip on sport climbers, sport climbing, bouldering etc. But hey - you know Mr. Dwayner better than I do so I'll take your word for it. Anyhow even if a more literal interpretation of those comments is the correct- he's free to rip on any of the above to his heart's content, and I am free to cast a dissenting vote when he does so. Hopefully we can even do so without too many hard feeling. As I said before I think it's good to have guys like yourself and Dwayner and Mitch and [insert anyone else who shares your outlook here] around to help keep climbing true to some of the values that should be part of climbing no matter what trend comes along. I think it's also true that every aspect of climbing has components that provide worthy fodder for ridicule, and if that's all that was going on here - just poking some fun at sportclimbers - none of the ridiculed would have cause to complain. However, the "No matter how hard you climb,if you clip bolts then you are a pussy and I'm a better, purer climber than you are, bow before me" routine really starts to grate after a while. Perhaps that's an unfair generalization, but that's the way comments like those I've posted above come off. Unfortunately, when a genuine concern for preserving the rock and the standards by which it should be climbed are housed within comments like those the only possible outcome, I'm afraid, will be to alienate other climbers from your ethics and outlook. So (anyone) if your aim is to do just that - keep the slander coming. If your intent is really to convince people to excercise a bit more restraint when bolting, respect the integrity of established routes, preserve the wilderness aspect of climbing and the like - making your case without quite so much recourse to insult and derision will garner you a larger audience and advance your agenda a lot further in the end. Now back to that sit start. I might even throw a dry-tool figure four into it. [ 02-15-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]

Dwayner say: Sorry, my friend, but that's not my code of ethics...it's more of a weak cliche that's been making the rounds for years. I haven't joined the Taliban, shot up heroin, or wasted two weeks on a boulder problem because basically, I think all three are lame! Poor phrasing on my part. What I meant by "Don't diss it unless you've done it." Wasn't "don't knock it until you've tried it" which, I agree - is a lame cliche'. Trying bouldering or sport climbing is easy and certainly not a source of any distinction - I'm with you there. But that's not what I was talking about... What I meant was I think it is lame to talk shit about something which you (and I, and all but a few incredibly gifted folks) are manifestly incapable of doing - in this case bouldering at the V10+ level and sport climbing at the 5.13 plus level. I really don't mean this as an insult, but it sort of sounds like an older biker dude sitting on his Harley ripping on the young guys who are pulling the insane freestyle tricks on their bikes at the motorcross. Yes - I'm sure he's a bad ass in his own way, but if nothing else you'd think that after all the time he's put in on the bike he'd at least be able to appreciate the difficulty involved in what they do, even if it's not he's interested in doing it himself. Hell, I'm baffled by the folks who dig tele-skiing and have no desire to take up the sport, but I have a ton of respect for the folks who excel at it unless I can do it better than they can I'm going to keep my mouth shut. To take this back to climbing - if someone who has actually climbed/bouldered at that level and then wants to rip-on those who do so and the routes they're put up - well, they've earned the right to do so without looking bad in my book. True, I don't know the first thing about you or what you've climbed. I'm sure that it's an impressive list of alpine and trad routes - but given your evident disdain for the two disciplines in question it seemed unlikely that a v10 or 5.13 route would found amongst them. Speculation (?)- seems like a reasonable conclusion to me. Anyhow, If I'm wrong - my bad. Anyway - "I don't talk shit about it if I can't do it." That's what I meant, that's my own little ethic that I try to live by. I'd type more but I'm off to add a dope-ass V2 sit start to this Alpine route in the Park... Shalom to you as well... -Jay [ 02-15-2002: Message edited by: JayB ] [ 02-15-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]

Dwayner et al: I understand the desire to insult those aspects of the sport that you do not excel at or just plain dislike. To me there’s a lot about bouldering that seems silly and contrived – especially sit starts. And nearly every time I see some 130 pound 15 year old cranking on a sport route that in all probability I will never be able to link up four consecutive moves on, let alone climb – there’s a part of me that wants to say “Yeah – well let’s see him get on that trad/ice/alpine route that I did and we’ll see how he does – THEN he can call himself a climber. ” Then something else takes over and I give them the respect they deserve for climbing at a such a high level – even if their abilities are confined to a relatively narrow segment of the sport – and I get inspired to climb harder myself. But that’s just me. If you're a self proclaimed member of the "old-school" and trad/mountaineering is the only aspect of the sport that appeals to you - great. If everything that's associated with sport climbing, bouldering, etc. makes you want to retch - fine. There's plenty of room for that perspective in the sport, and in general I think that having a few folks around who stand up for risk, commitment, judgement, and the integrity of old, bold routes of yore such as DDD is a healthy thing for climbing. It is dissapointing, however, to see someone from who abides by a such a strict code of ethics ignore what I thought was one of the most important ethics of all – don’t diss it until you’ve done it. Hell, even the 14 year old sport monkeys that do 90% of their climbing in the gym abide by it. They may be able to crank on 13’s out at Shelf, but even they will refrain from talking smack about a 5.5 trad climb, or a 5.5 trad climber until they’ve gone out and led the route themselves - perhaps because until they’ve done so they know they’re just talking shit. Myself, I wouldn’t dream of ripping on boulder problems harder than about V2, or sport routes harder than 5.11 - let alone V15 problems and 5.15 routes - until I could yawn my way through them. But maybe that’s not an old-school ethic after all…I'm starting to wonder. [ 02-15-2002: Message edited by: JayB ] [ 02-15-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]

CleeshterFeeshter or Unabomber? "4. We therefore advocate a revolution against the industrial system. This revolution may or may not make use of violence: it may be sudden or it may be a relatively gradual process spanning a few decades. We can't predict any of that. But we do outline in a very general way the measures that those who hate the industrial system should take in order to prepare the way for a revolution against that form of society. This is not to be a POLITICAL revolution. Its object will be to overthrow not governments but the economic and technological basis of the present society." Free limited edition velvet Che Guevara poster for the first correct guess...

quote: Originally posted by gregm: that's him, the guy i'm talking about. i friend of mine was bouldering there and this "coach" dude told somebody else that my friend was a private eye hired to spy on coach because of some hit and run lawsuit. Sweet Mother of God....

quote: Originally posted by specialed: Ubiqitous head band. Sweatshirt with arms and neck cut off. knee socks. Looks like John Long. All around 80's style. No shit --- still there eh? Last time I ran into him at the UW wall he was regaling some climber visiting from South Africa with tales of the connections between Steve Largent, the CIA, and the Cali Cartel or something. Yipes!

What's this "coach" guy look like? I think I remember him from my UW days...

Good suggestions. Sounds like facing the rock and sliding and/or backpedalling is the technique that has worked best for most people. I’ll keep wearing the double Carhartt’s and hoping that I never have to use it. I found a thread on rec.climbing that addressed the same issue and found an account of a fall that sounds a lot like my own, and a description of an interesting slab climbing get-up. One more fall like the last one and I might be sporting an outfit like the one described there myself…. “My road rash is healing nicely. I took a 35 foot slide down a 5.9 josh slab last week and ended up up-side-down myself. I'm not sure how long the fall took - but time certainly compressed and I heard my partner say, "Oh shit." and I started back pedalling and trying to keep my hands off the rock. After about 25 feet the rope or a ledge flipped me over and I landed on my side - whacking my head on the rock. My partner had mentioned that I forgot to put my helmet back on and so I stopped at the first bolt and had him toss it up. Thankfully he was paying attention with the belay and took up some slack. I was shaken (not stirred) and it took a few more days of leading to get my head strong again. The bruises I have on my back, elbow, and calf are pretty huge”. -- Jason Liebgott Northern CA Climbing “I don't think Karl Baba knows this - but I'm certain I saw him in Tuolumne in 1996, doing slabs with a big wall harness, over the ankle style shoes, thick pants and knee pads. I was impressed. I think skidding down on your padded knees and pants with some good shoes on is the way to go. Not many will have the presence of mind to do much else.” - Nate

quote: Originally posted by Uncle Tricky: Hey Jayb, I'm curious specifically how you fell--were you sliding on hands and knees? Did you tumble? Did you tear up your hands trying instinctively to grab the rock and slow yourself down as you fell? Where did you get the worst "slab rash?" I've never taken a big fall on a slab, so my thought are just conjecture and I'd be interested in hearing more informed opinions. Well, from what I can remember the fall went slip (just as I was trying to make it to a better stance), tumble, skid. Most of the damage seemed to come about during the final "skid" phase, as I was pretty discombobulated by this point and not able to formulate a very successful skin-preservation strategy on the fly. I sort of vaguely recall trying to re-orient myself using my hands and feet, and I think that my knees got into the act as well - consequently my palms, knees, elbows, and forearms to the brunt of the damage. The rope also caught behind my leg and gave me a pretty good burn there as well. The burned hand (and knee) teaches best....

I chose a slab at Peshastin for one of my first ever leads a few years ago, and found myself way out over the last bolt, unable to move up or down, with my feet slowly giving way as the sand beneath them turned into little ball bearings...a half a second later and 30 feet lower I sized up the damage and pondered calling my nearest blood relative and asking for an impromptu skin graft. I didn’t learn much from the experience besides a health respect for slabs and an aversion to falling on them, and that double Carhartt’s would have been much more appropriate attire than shorts. I certainly did not come away from the experience thinking that there must be a “better” way to take a fall on a slab – e.g. a technique that one could use to minimize the carnage other than - not falling. However, I met a guy this summer who and after claimed that the best way to minimize tissue loss, should you find yourself about to skid down a slab, was to run around and run down the face. Said it helped him conserve a fair amount of flesh during a long fall on Topographic Oceans just a day or two before. Having the presence of mind and the balance to turn around and run seemed like a tall order at the time, but since then I’ve heard others repeat this and still more claiming that (even more improbably) giant backward steps were the way to go. So here’s the question: Anyone out there ever tried this or know anyone who has? I don’t plan on ever taking another fall on a slab if I can help it, and if I do there’s a strong chance that I’ll be wearing the said double Carhartts, but…should I find myself in that position again I’d be willing to give the running thing a try as it doesn’t seem like you’d be any more messed up than if you had just applied the skin-brakes from the get go.

Crazy Erik: There's actually been quite a bit of chatter back and forth about the situation at Vantage. Most of it is contained within the "Access Issues" forum -the good news is that there's already an effort underway to restore the routes that had their hangers stolen. Cheers,

Here's Nate Beckwith's Gri-Gri modification instructions.... http://www.geocities.com/nate_beckwith/grigri.html

quote: Originally posted by pope: And if I were to propose a solution to all the acrimony over bolting, I'd say places at which sport-climbing is well established should be left alone by old farts like me who are offended by the place. But at the same time, I think other cliffs should be left alone by the bolt slingers. Deal! Seriously though....I've been in touch with the generous fellow who is organizing the retrofix and will put in an order for the hangers and rap-station from MEC this Friday. If you want to help him out also, send me a PM and I'll provide you with his contact information. Help him out if you can. P.S. If anyone knows the identity of the hanger thief, please send him to Shelf Road so that he can steal all of the *&%ing home-made bed-frame hangers from the routes down here and we can get them replaced with real hardware....

quote: Originally posted by Fairweather: dry Coloradohigh altitude tumbleweedswhere are the glaciers? Saint Mary's the placeglacier or snowfield debate small at any rate

quote: Originally posted by vegetablebelay: Colorado for now is 6 In get an extra syllable for rhyming!

Colorado nowless than a month is the dateWashington my state [ 02-08-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]

Lead the pillar man no hangers its killer you big blood spiller man

quote: Originally posted by chucK: How about if I led Chossmaster? Isn't that free-standing pillar like 5.7 (and a bolt-free lead) if you chimney up between it and the wall? Chuck Chossmaster will only get you 40oz of King Cobra. Clip'em or Skip'em will get you a chilled Zima or wine cooler.You'll have to use nuts slung around the bolts on the 11a face to score the pitcher... [ 02-08-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]

quote: Originally posted by chucK: Actually, some are probably still leadable too, just not as safely. You lead that free-standing pillar without the hangers and there's a free pitcher of whatever you want waiting for you as soon as I get in state.

quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: Dwayner -Think of it as modern poetry with a touch of French. Postmodern, even. Not a bad rendition I must say. For a truly world-class skewering of that genre check out "Transgressing the Boundaries: The Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity." at:http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/transgress_v2/transgress_v2_singlefile.html This actually got published in a trendy post-mod rag before being revealed as a hoax and caused an uproar not seen since the days of the Piltdown Man.

Oops - that was for the Two-Cam unit...

From a post on rec.climbing... > Hi Milkdud> Have you any report on the 2CU yet?> T> Hello T, Got to use the 2CAM in a variety of placements along TripleDirect on El Cap, at Mission Gorge polished rock, Mt Woodson, and BigRock. The shallow nature of the 2CAM is great for AID placements, as longas you put it in with the shallow pin side against the back of thecrack (common sense)..but hey, I futzed with it anyway. Think of it asa more secure surface area contact, that used to be a bit dicey on 2lobes of your 4cam units. The range is marginal at best, and be very careful of fullretraction and pushing the unit in, as it has cut-outs on the lobeswhich promote overcamming. Have yet to take a fall on one, but did kick an 80lb haulbag for a5' test hit. The 2CAM didn't slip, but did tweak a little at the lobepivot, such that the lobes don't match flush when fully released now.I'm certain this will be addressed by Splitter, as they are superresponsive to comments. They're not as finicky as Aliens when dirty, and yet to becleaned..I'm just going to see how much they can gum up before havingto tap them open The sling is spectra grade, and works well. What I really liked isthe large loop, which is great for an extra inch or two on AID. Iwouldn't Fifi it though, as any flare/scar you'd be putting these intowouldn't like a direct outward pull. In fact, a Screamer usually foundit's way attached to the 2CAM as a reflex. I hope this helps out. I'll be in the Sandias next week, and willreport any 'new' stuff about these neat units. Cheers -M

Lucky: Thanks for the update - the problem may be nonexistent by the time I finish my move, but I imagine they'll accept a donation in my absence if the fix goes in before I get out there I checked the site and sent an e-mail to one of the contacts listed on the page with questions about the particulars of the retrofix efforts over there, and will keep everyone who is interested in helping out posted. [ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]

Thanks Erik: Anytime you replace a hanger you a presenting someone with the opportunity to steal it. That's a risk I'm willing to take in order to insure that whoever ripped them off in the first place does not succeed in his ambitions to render these routes unclimbable - if that was in fact his intention. If we're just dealing with a cheap bastard who needed a few dozen hangers, hopefully he has enough now and will leave the area alone. If nothing else, the fact that the peak season will be underway soon and the crowds will follow should make it more difficult for anyone to mess with the routes there. Anyhow, when and if this hanger replacement gets off the ground I intend on securing them to the bolts in a manner that will at least insure that the thief has to work very hard scoot off with them. If this really is someone who stole the hangers out of strong objection to the bolting that has occured at Vantage, maybe he'll speak up and the community can attempt to engage him in a dialogue and address his grievances in some fashion. As far as the cooling off period is concerned, it'll be at least a month and a half before I have any role in replacing hardware at the Coulee so perhaps this will allow things to settle down a bit/and or give whoever ripped them off a chance to chime in.