JayB

I think that there was a thread on rec.climbing entitled "Braile Book Accident" or something like that with a few links to news stories about the accident. Sounds like the climber had some serious fractures but was otherwise in stable condition when he was hoisted off the ground, but the chopper apparently had some mechanical problems (?)shorty after lift-off which resulted in the fallen climber and a rescuer being dragged into a tree at high speeds. The climber died as a result of the injuries he sustained in his collision with the tree and his rescuer sustained multiple injuries.

quote: Originally posted by Dennis Harmon: I firmly believe that so-called "sport climbing" together with rampant bolting of my beloved rock is spelling the death of my beloved sport, and that it is being done, largely, by an entire generation of spoiled youth of this country who have only taken, and taken, and taken... and have never been required to give anything back...Dennis One more thing. Which generation are you referring to here? Must not be us folks in our 20s. You will recall that sport-climbing had its genesis in the early 80s, and that being the case, the generation responsible for the vast majority of the bolted routes and the ethics you deplore is your very own. Even today I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone under thirty putting up new-bolted lines. I suspect this is partly a cost issue, and also partly because most of the accessible lines on quality rock that can't be protected with gear have already been bolted and there's really no need.

Jesus - anyone remember a worse year for climbers/copters? [ 06-25-2002, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

quote: Originally posted by Dennis Harmon: Darn it, I guess that I'd better moderate my comments as well because I tend to upset people. I firmly believe that so-called "sport climbing" together with rampant bolting of my beloved rock is spelling the death of my beloved sport, and that it is being done, largely, by an entire generation of spoiled youth of this country who have only taken, and taken, and taken... and have never been required to give anything back. But, I have always thought that freedom of speech is still in effect, regardless how stupid and vulgar it may be. Dennis Dennis - you've made your point. Several times. Your opinion on this matter is abundantly clear, even to those who may have missed your 20-odd posts expressing this very same sentiment in a number of other forums. Surely as a hardcored trad-only old schooler you've got a lot of good beta and technical know how to share - why not post some of that every now and then instead of/in addition to the anti-bolting screeds? Just a thought.

Checked out the "Spray" section on R&I.com after checking the "Route Conditions" forum. Just in case you were wondering how he's doing... "WOW, what a suck ass ascene in washington. man i was kicked off 2 times of the cascadeclimbers.com. they should rename the site to cascadechuggers.cum. bunch of old fart trad suck ass i am standing on my soap box wannabes. if you ever go to the site- you'll find out that lunatic fringe in the ditch is a "relenless pitch", v2 is a hard boulder problem. that site makes R&I look like an olympic champ. and then some loser tim (site moderator) bothers me with a personal email....." etc, etc, etc.

Phinney sounds good if anyone's still keeping track....

quote: Originally posted by Matt: While leading the Standard Route on CP I was horrified to see someone's rope stuck far in the back of the crack. Not just a little piece, but maybe 30 feet!!!! That's why they now have rap stations out in the middle of the blank face so you don't have to rap the route. The last time I got my rope stuck I was able to lead up with the other free rope to the bush that the stuck rope was rapped around and then down climb with both ends. Down climbing is a skill gym climbers often ignore. I think that that section of rope is still there -unless it's melted in the Hayman fire - at least it was last summer. From what I remember it was about 30 feet of orangish rope waaaay back in the crack, just above the first belay ledge. Maybe from the Samurai nut tool crew. From what I hear it's been the site of many rappel related epics, all the more puzzling because of the rap-route down the clean granite on the face that you mentioned. Speaking of the face, did you see the bolted route on the face with the homemade hangers? Called "The Abortion" or something like that. Not sure if anyone's ever climbed it - made me nauseous just looking at it. Also, thanks for sharing the info about leading back up to the pro with the remainder of the rope! I hadn't thought of that but hopefully I would have been able to figure something like that out if I had to, but thankfully that's a scenario I haven't encountered yet. Seems like that would be the way to go unless the distance to the upper end of the stuck rope is greater than the amount of free rope that you have available to ascend the crack with (?). Maybe in a situation like that one could anchor the rope at the belay ledge, set pro on the way up, and self-belay with a backed up clove hitch or something...then downclimb(?). Pretty dodgy-stuff, but might be better than the alternative if you're waaaaaaay out there and no one else will be able to help you out. Anyone out there ever had to do anything like that?

I should have known that was coming...

FWIW, I've had the misfortune of ascending stuck ropes* (they were still running through the anchor, thankfully) after a rappell on two occaisons and having the ti-blocs around made the process much less of an ordeal. It was also quite a bit faster (3 or four times as fast) than using prusiks, which I appreciated since we were bailing because of the incoming lightning...I hesitated a bit to fork over the $40 for the pair in the store, but I would have paid several times that amount to get my hands on them in the midst of that storm. Bottom line: The ti-blocs are expensive, but easily worth the money, given the number of applications they have as ascenders, self rescue devices, back-ups for simul-climbing, etc. *Any official protocol to follow when this happens? In my case the rope was still threaded through the slings, so I could just ascend both ropes, pull the knot out of the constriction, rap back to the ledge, and head down - but what if you've pulled down so much rope that you've only got one end left? This happened to a couple of friends of mine on Hallets and their solution was to cut the rope that they had been able to pull down, rap of of this piece, and leave a fortune's worth of gear on the way down in a series of 5 50' rappels. Thankfully they had a knife. I heard a story of a couple of guys who had to endure a lightning storm on Cynical Pinnacle while they struggled to cut their rope with their nut tool...I'd be interested in hearing about any other means of getting oneself out of this situation...

Word.

quote: Originally posted by mwills:

quote: Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman: Jay it took me one pitch until I was finding the swing. I love em on the steeps and especially topping out and on bulges. Very good hooking machines That's what I wanted to hear! My prophets were solid tools, but when it came to bulges, hook-fests, or topping out the straight shaft was a drag. I tried to commit myself to the improve yourself not your tools philosophy for a while, but after taking it for a test drive I've decided that I'll buy any edge that I can afford.

Grivel USA 1435, South State Street Evolution Ski Complex SLC - UTAH 84115 USA Phone: ++1.801.463.7996

quote: Originally posted by Jedi: Robocomps look nice and I have heard great things about their "stickyness" ice. But their long secondary points sound like they make mixed/rock climbing not as enjoyable as it could be. Any experiences with these crampons guys. Jedi Lots of experience with the Rambocomps last year, but none of it on the mixed stuff. I did see a whole crew of guys using them on Secret Probation (or Secret Prohbition or something like that)(M4 or 5 of something) at Vail and didn't hear any complaining. If nothing else, the Grivel's come with a pretty burly forged mono-point that should last for a while if you're into the mixed thing. On pure ice, they're the shiznit. The long secondardy points work their magic here, readily engaging the ice and forming a nice stable tripod right off the bat. The absurdly recessed secondary points on my Switchblades more or less ruled out dropping your heel to engage the secondary points, as you had to drop your heel so low that your front-points were about to blow by the time the secondaries touched the ice. Anyhow, the Grivel's also seemed to do awfully well in extremely convoluted or chandeliered ice as the displacement was minimal. I also like the fact that the top of the mono flares out at the top - made me quite a bit less concerned about shearing. And lastly, the set of prongs under the ball of your foot that faces rearward made it possible to cop flat-footed stances on downward-sloping bulges and other features with much less anxiety. Grivel had better send me a sticker or something for this testimonial.... Also - just got a pair of the Light Machines from Barrabes about a month ago as I was worried that they would stop shipping them to the US before the next season got underway. Ray or anyone else who uses them - any trouble adjusting your swing to the next angle? If so, how long until you got it dialed in? Thanks in advance for any info...

quote: Originally posted by JayB: quote:Originally posted by pope: [qb]I see little harm in gym climbing, or even sport climbing when it's confined to a chossy cliff. This, however, is progress. I was just kidding there, hombre. I'll have to remember to use a smiley-face next time. Best Regards, [ 06-19-2002, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

quote: Originally posted by pope: I see little harm in gym climbing, or even sport climbing when it's confined to a chossy cliff. This, however, is progress.

quote: Originally posted by pope: Dude, you've obviously learned reading comprehension from Lambone, or maybe you've been taking logic lessons from Peter Pounder. How else may one explain the way you seem to have pulled that assertion out of your arse? My comments on gym climbing have been mostly positive. In fact, I was a member of a climbing gym for years, and I enjoyed the fitness and (occasionally) the social exchanges. Checking out the exotic talent made the exorbitant membership fees worth the price. I see little harm in gym climbing, or even sport climbing when it's confined to a chossy cliff. To bad it never works out that way. Ugh. Yes, your comments concerning sport-climbing, sport-climbers, climbing gyms, and the people who frequent them have been overwhelmingly positive and I have grossly misrepresented the tenor of your commentary on this site by suggesting anything to the contrary. My apologies.

The upward force generated by a leader fall directed through a piece above the anchor will not (allowing for the freakish exception - mini-me belaying Elvis on a 100 footer or something) generate sufficent force to rip out a well placed directional anchor. If the piece that your leader has placed and fallen upon is strong enough to generate this much upward force, chances are it'll hold the fall and your anchors will not have to withstand the force of the leader falling directly upon them. Even the force of his fall rips out the directional piece and the piece of pro he placed, in the end you're no worse of for having placed it. It sounds like you already know this, but what you're really protecting against here is a scenario in which the upward force of the leader's fall lifts you above the pro you've set for your anchors and in turn disrupts them, the pieces the leader has set above the anchor to protect himself fail, and then the disrupted anchor-pieces rip out when the force of his fall loads the anchors directly after he has fallen past the belay, and the two of you plunge to the ground along with your anchor. This very scenario might have occured last year in Yosemite, when two Colorado climbers fell to their deaths after the leader fell just above their belay and their four piece anchor failed (could have also been due to the flake the the pro was placed behind expanding under load as well). If you protect the route properly in the first place, you should be able to avoid ever having to test out the ability of your anchors to withstand a downward pull. In practice this means placing pro more freqently at the start the climb (less rope out to absorb the force on the fall = more force on the pro) or even doubling up the first pro that the leader places above the belay in addition to setting directional pro to protect against an upwards pull. If you wan to play around with these scenarios there's a good fall force simulator that you can access through this link: http://www.petzl.com/petzl/publicActiv?id=GDEPAROI#

Apples and oranges. Robinson was advocating replacing one form of protection with another in order to preserve the rock, not doing away with any protection whatesoever out of a commitment to that ethic. Had he done so, his essay would have been dismissed out of hand as the ravings of a lunatic and would have had no influence on climbing whatsoever. The fact of the matter is that there's quite a bit of rock out there that's only protectable by bolts, and while a plea for judicious use of bolts to protect only quality lines might resonate with most climbers, anyone who argues on behalf of abandoning the use of bolts to protect oneself while climbing them, or for turning every bolted line into an X-rated death route in order to preserve the rock, is going to enjoy roughly the same level of crediblity with climbers that Ted Kacynski currently enjoys with the general public. Not a promising strategy, IMO.

One more vote for The Zoo if anyone's still counting...

Just a note concerning the data/commentary in my post above. Except for the fist sentence, it's all from Tom Moyer, of Salt Lake City Search and rescue, in a post of his that I found during a search of rec.climbing. Anyhow - hopefully it's useful information.

Pope/Dwayner: Dudes...I was just trying to say that extremists tend to undermine the causes they hope to advance by alienating most of the people who might support them. Judging by your comments it seems clear that both of you take pride in the fact that you've always given climbing gyms and sport crags a wide berth. Fair enough, but in doing so I think that you've developed an inaccurate picture of the people who frequent them. Most sport-climbers/gym-climbers that I know do care quite a bit about the environment and, by extension, the rocks themselves. If you appeal to these sentiments when and if you ever have direct contact with them, I think that you'll find that they'll be willing to listen and might even be converts to your cause. Oddly enough, that's more of less what I saw going on in the gym in Colorado Springs. Quite a few of the active old-schoolers would keep their muscles strong in the gym during the winter months, and while there interacted with most of the gym-climbers and sport monkeys. When the weather warmed up a crew of them would usually head out to the Platte to climb together, and after a trip or two with the old schoolers they seemed to be on the same page with regards to ethics. I'm certainly not suggesting that you take a flock of gym-climbing sport-monkeys under your wing or hold sermons in the gym, but rather that your cause might be better served by changing your tactics/message a bit. [ 06-18-2002, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

quote: Originally posted by Off White: Is there some reason why you wouldn't use a double fishermans knot for tieing your ropes together for a rappel? I don't think I've ever used anything else. If I'm rapping down a blank face and the odds of the rope getting caught in a crack are low, I go with the double-fisherman's. If it's windy, and/or there's a reasonable chance that the rope will get hung up on the way down I go with the EDK (backed up with an overhand knot immediately behind the EDK itself and a long tail).

quote: Originally posted by Dwayner: What a ridiculous cliché! Guess what! Making a loud noise about an issue is a form of action. Talk to your buddies at Green Peace, Earth First, Act Up, etc. It is perfectly obvious that not everybody seems to understand that bolting is an issue. Some of us choose to call attention to our side of the issue by being in-your-face and noisy. You may argue that it’s ineffective, but I disagree. Individuals might at least think twice before they drill that bolt next to a crack, etc. and I know there are some new and genuine converts to clean climbing as a result of our ranting. Right on! Keep believing that, and by all means keep on ranting! What the Taliban did for Islam, you can do for the anti-bolting contingent! Who else could take a postition that might possibly resonate with the vast majority of climbers who clip bolts and make it a truly marginal crusade that only appeals to a dwindling number of fringe dwelling zealots! Bravo! Actually, I agree that most climbers aren't aware of the fact that there are ethical considerations that they should take into account before placing bolts in the rock, and that more should be done to promote awareness of this issue. However, until you tone down the rhetoric, attempt to build consensus on this issue through a judicious compromise or two, and/or advocate sensible restraints on bolting instead of an outright ban, the only thing that your ranting will get from the vast majority of climbers that you have effectively alienated from your cause is a good chuckle or a dismissive shrug.

Some additional commentary/testing info on the overhand figure-8 knot... I learned this weekend at the International Technical Rescue Symposium that the figure eight version of the Euro Death Knot is being actively taught to climbers in Canada. I had thought that only the overhand version was in widespread use and that everyone pretty much recognized the figure eight to have the potential to be a really quick trip to the bottom of the crag. Failure of the figure eight version of this knot has already caused a fatality in1994 at Seneca Rocks and an accident in 1995 in Salt Lake. Both of these knots would politely be called "mis-loaded" and impolitely would be called, well - the "Euro Death Knot". The failure mode for the figure eight version is to flip/invert/capsize, which then becomes the identical twin of the first knot, just with shorter tails. After enough of these events there are no tails left and the knot fails. Leaving at least a foot of tail is recommended. I spent a few hours yesterday in my front yard with a come-a-long and a load cell to try to get some decent information on this. The results still leave room for plenty of argument. People who don't like the figure eight will say, "See, it slips at really low loads!" People who do like it will say, "See, if you dress it right, pretension it well, and leave long tails, it doesn't fail. Besides, I've been using it for years and I'm still alive!" If you're too impatient to wade through the results below, the short answer is that if you do all those things, you should be ok. My question is - why would you take the chance? If you're in a situation where a stuck rope would be catastrophic, use the overhand. It has all the same advantages and not nearly as much risk. Be safe - the body we have to scape off the rock may be yours. - Tom Moyer Salt Lake County Search and Rescue Rope A: Mammut 11 mm static - used Rope B: Unknown manufacturer red 11 mm dynamic - used Rope C: ABC/Sterling 11 mm static - new Rope D: Blue Water II+ 11 mm static - new Rope E: ABC 8mm static - new Rope F: 1" Tubular Webbing Test #1: RopeA/RopeA - figure 8 - well dressed and pretensioned Capsized at 750 lb, Rope broke at 2520 lb Test #2: RopeB/RopeB - figure 8 - well dressed and pretensioned Capsized at 590 lb, Capsized at 2280 lb, Rope broke at 2560 lb Test #3: RopeB/RopeB - figure 8 - well dressed, pretensioned loosely Capsized at 290 lb, Stopped Test at 2800 lb Test #4: RopeB/RopeB - figure 8 - sloppy, crossing strands and loose Capsized at 110 lb, Capsized at 140 lb, Capsized at 340 lb, Capsized at 420 lb, Capsized at 530 lb, Stopped Test at 2500 lb Test #5: RopeB/RopeB - overhand - well dressed and pretensioned Capsized at 1400 lb, Capsized at 1940 lb, Capsized at 1990 lb, Rope Broke at 2070 lb Test #6: RopeA/RopeA - overhand - well dressed and pretensioned Stopped Test at 2540 lb Test #7: RopeC/RopeC - figure 8 - well dressed and pretensioned Stopped Test at 2500 lb Test #8: RopeD/RopeD - figure 8 - well dressed and pretensioned Capsized at 2170 lb, Stopped Test at 2550 lb Test #9: RopeB(11mm)/RopeE(8mm) - figure 8 - well dressed and pretensioned Capsized at 1330 lb, Capsized at 1550 lb, 8mm broke at 2700 lb Test #10: RopeB/RopeB - figure 8 - well dressed and pretensioned - WET Capsized at 470 lb, Rope broke at 2790 lb Test #11: RopeB/RopeB - figure 8 - well dressed, pretensioned loosely - WET Capsized at 290 lb, Rope broke at 2470 lb Test 12: RopeF/RopeF (webbing) - well dressed and pretensioned Webbing broke at 2070 lb