JayB

You can find an MIT grad student's investigation of carabiner failure here: http://www.mit.edu/afs/athena/course/16/16.62x/www/Graham_Jon_622.pdf For info on rope/knot/cord failure check out this site: http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/ More info on 3-Sigma Testing: http://www.bdel.com/bd/quality_3sig.html Some info for heavy climbers: http://www.safeclimbing.org/Heavy_Climbers_Beware.pdf Great general tech weenie site for climbers: http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/techweenie.html Petzl Fall Force Simulator: http://www.petzl.com/statique/sport/ENG/tech/html/simul/FC/index.html Good info on shockloading: http://www.petzl.com/statique/sport/ENG/tech/html/shockload.html Other techy type links about gear/climbing out there?

If negative feedback along the likes of flaming and spray are elements that discourage serious posts and you feel that this site is diminished by that, perhaps positive feedback will encourage more folks to make that sort of contribution. If someone posts something that you find interesting or useful, why not say so in a post or at least send them a PM that says so. And of course you can always help remedy the situation by adding something along the lines of a good TR, gear review, etc. As far as your own posts are concerned, I think you'll find that you'll be treated the way you act. Keep your own flaming to the minimum and you'll by no means be spared from every flame, but I think you'll find that you'll avoid the worst of it. If you disagree with someone in a hostile manner or take a shot at them, however, don't be surprised if they return fire. Myself - I think that this site is a great resource, and appreciate all of the beta I get here, and quite a bit of the banter. Whenever I've needed beta the folks on this site have never failed to come through. Just this past weekend I was trying to decide between the full N. Ridge of Stuart and the E. Ridge Direct on Forbidden, and sent PM's out to J-Dog, Mr. Radon (Stuart), as well as Lambone and Ray (Forbidden) and got great info from all of them, not to mention the stuff I found on old threads in the North Cascades and Alpine Lakes forums. We ended up doing neither - headed up to Boston Basin and bivied Saturday, woke up in the rain Sunday and left - but it was great to head up there with accurate information about the route beforehand. Everyone I've met from this board has been cool in person, and I hope that I can make it to more PC's so that I can meet some more.

If negative feedback along the likes of flaming and spray are elements that discourage serious posts and you feel that this site is diminished by that, perhaps positive feedback will encourage more folks to make that sort of contribution. If someone posts something that you find interesting or useful, why not say so in a post or at least send them a PM that says so. And of course you can always help remedy the situation by adding something along the lines of a good TR, gear review, etc. As far as your own posts are concerned, I think you'll find that you'll be treated the way you act. Keep your own flaming to the minimum and you'll by no means be spared from every flame, but I think you'll find that you'll avoid the worst of it. If you disagree with someone in a hostile manner or take a shot at them, however, don't be surprised if they return fire. Myself - I think that this site is a great resource, and appreciate all of the beta I get here, and quite a bit of the banter. Whenever I've needed beta the folks on this site have never failed to come through. Just this past weekend I was trying to decide between the full N. Ridge of Stuart and the E. Ridge Direct on Forbidden, and sent PM's out to J-Dog, Mr. Radon (Stuart), as well as Lambone and Ray (Forbidden) and got great info from all of them, not to mention the stuff I found on old threads in the North Cascades and Alpine Lakes forums. We ended up doing neither - headed up to Boston Basin and bivied Saturday, woke up in the rain Sunday and left - but it was great to head up there with accurate information about the route beforehand. Everyone I've met from this board has been cool in person, and I hope that I can make it to more PC's so that I can meet some more.

How about some more wisdom from the D-Town regulars. E.g. "Should you find yourself a long way out from your last pro while 12 ptiches up on a blank slab and you notice that the minor bleeding on your hands from the endless thickets of devils club you plowed through on the ascent is impairing your grip...

I've been very happy with my Toyota. Just passed 130K and have done little more than change the oil, filters, etc. and replace a worn CV boot. I think that the domestics have improved drastically in the last 20 years or so, but Toyotas still rule in terms of reliability, longevity, and resale value. 4WD capabilities are pretty impressive for a stock truck as well. Take a look at what they drive in the mountain towns where they need reliability and performance - mostly toyota trucks and Subaru station wagons.

Good stuff folks. I forgot the stuff about you and your partner checking one another out at the base of the climb to insure that your knot is tied properly and your harness has been threaded through the buckle correctly. I was ice climbing last winter and undid my harness to take a leak and only discovered that I had failed to double it back when I topped out. Not just stupid - we're talking Darwin awards material for sure. I'm very fotunate that nothing happened, and needless to say the experience reinforced the importance on focusing on the fundatmentals. It's just so easy to get complacent or distracted if you're not religious about some of these things. Anchoring at the base of a climb is another good issue to bring up. I don't see it as much at trad areas, but at sport venues I see quite a few unanchored belayers lingering 10-15 feet out from the base of the route that their leader is ascending. If you've got a BMI on par with Elvis in his Vegas days and you're belaying someone with the physique of an Ethiopian supermodel it might not be such a big deal, but if your weights are even close to equal and the leader whips down low the odds are good that you'll get dragged violently to the base of the climb -maybe even a few feet up it - and may even lose control of the rope, all the while adding several feet to your leaders fall. This again is an area where I learned the hard way. I was out with some newer folks and volunteered to put up a top rope on a climb I'd never lead before. One of the climbers in the party claimed to know the rating and put it at about a 5.9, so I wasn't worried. It was actually way closer to an 11, and at seventh bolt I peeled off while bringing up rope to clip with. I fell right through the zone where I was expecting the rope to go tight, and fell right past another 5 bolts on the way down. I could have shaken my belayers hand, seeing as he had been yanked about 12 feet across the trail and about 5 feet up the wall. Thankfully I had him use a Gri-Gri, as both of his hands were off of the rope. It was a nice soft catch, which was nice, but I would have much rather had my fall arrested a few feet higher off of the ground. Other things this experience brings to mind: 1.If you're not anchored stay close to the wall - but not directly beneath your leader. This is often what I'll do when belaying I'm belaying a trad leader and don't want to introduce any additional forces onto the gear he/she's placed. 2. Consider anchoring if it looks as though there's a roof or some other blunt object looming above you that you might get sucked into if your leader pitches. 3. Consider wearing a helmet when you are belaying - especially in areas with loose rock like Vantage. I remember reading a horrible account somewhere about a guy belaying a leader at the feathers who got hit with a rock that his leader dislodged. Not only did the rock pierce his skull, but after this happened he naturally released his grip on the rock and the leader landed on him from like 30 feet up. Thankfully the belayer lived, but I sure hope nothing like that happens to anyone else out there. [ 10-03-2002, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

11/14 Just bringing this sucker back up to the top after reading many posts on taxes, Israelis vs. Palestinians, etc. I hereby propose the following tax: For every five posts you make concerning the topics mentioned above, and/or gun control, property rights, etc. one must post one useful piece of climbing info/beta/lore in this thread or a related counterpart. Howdy: There's been quite a bit of discussion surrounding the potential modes of gear failure and other aspects of climbing safety in the thread concerned with Goran's tragic death at the coulee. This got me thinking, and it seems like this might be a good time to move some elements of that discussion to a separate thread dedicated those topics. I suspect anyone who's been climbing for a while has had occasion to look back at the way that they did things when they first started climbing -or became involved with a new aspect of the sport - and shudder just a bit. At the very least I imagine that nearly everyone has discovered that there are better or safer ways to do things than the way that they originally learned or were taught. That got me thinking about some of the things that I've learned along the way that might be useful to someone else who's just starting out. I'm also pretty confident that there's still alot that I can learn from folks who have been at it a lot longer than I have. So, if you have changed the way you do things for the better, you had a close call that you walked away from, or just some general pointers that you think your fellow climbers could benefit from - why not share them here? The techniques you discuss might seem obvious or redundant to most of the regulars here, but I suspect there are quite a few folks who skim through this site that might benefit from what you have to say. I'm neither a pro nor anything close to a hardman, but I do try like to challenge myself while climbing as safely as I can, and feel like I've learned a useful trick or two while I've been at it, so I'll get things started. Hopefully someone will find some of this stuff useful: Trad: 1. Plug in more gear at the start of the climb. When you're just off of the deck you've got less rope out and the impact force on your gear will be higher if you fall down low. Once you get some distance between yourself and the belayer you can run it out a bit more between each placement. 2. Use an auto locking belay device to bring up seconds. I started out belaying seconds with an ATC because that's all I had. Now I use a reverso or a gri-gri and it makes it much easier for me to safely manage the rope at the belay while bringing up the second. If you are belaying off of the anchor (in general, but especially with an auto locking device) it will also make it much easier to escape the belay and begin self-rescue if your partner gets in trouble. I generally belay off of the anchor unless the best anchor that I've been able to construct doesn't inspire as much confidence as I'd like and I want to mitigate the stress on the anchor with my body - or it's just too akward to belay directly from the anchor. 3. Have your gear ready for the crux. If there's a good rest stance directly below the crux or a tough part I'll take a closer look at the crack and get the gear I'll need ready before I commit so I can (hopefully)plug it in easily without futzing around with my rack too much. 4. Reset disrupted cams if you can. Ideally you'll always use runners of the appropriate length when you're leading and you'll never disrupt a cam that you've placed as you lead past it. I do my best to use runners appropriately, and it feels like I overuse runners sometimes, but it still happens every now and then. When I was starting out I would just rush on to the next placement. These days If I see this happen and it's still within reach I'll reach down and reset the cam for a downward pull and add a runner if necessary. If it's not within reach when I notice it and the climbing is casual I'll downclimb and do the same. If neither is possible then it gets more complicated. I'll add extra gear above it and either downclimb with the security of the toprope above me and reset the gear, or continue on if I'm confident that the rest of the gear below is good and I see lots of places to plug in gear above me on terrain that I know I can cover with very little risk of falling. Of course the second option is not as safe but it's the kind of judgement call you can expect to make fairly often when leading trad. The more you climb the more confident you'll feel with your choices. Ice. 1. Always place a good screw before you top out. It's tempting to get off of the scary stuff as quickly as possible andhead for the big tree with the slings or some other oasis of security that beckons beyond the easy ground atop an ice route. However, lots of times the ice just beyond the apex of an ice climb is horrible, unprotectable slushy crap. Take advantage of the last good ice that you can find and crank in a screw before you commit to clearing the bulge and/or the easy but unprotectable ground above it. 2. Never use your knees to clear a bulge. When you top out on an ice climb it's tempting to lurch over the edge and swing your tools as far onto the ledge as you can. Avoid this temptation as it will more or less force you to clamber over the top with your knees or shins in contact with the ice instead of your front points. Find good ice near or over the top of the climb to sink your tool into, work your front points up from below, then incrementally advance your tools away from the edge until you can step over the top and stink your crampon points onto the top of the ice instead of your slippery, goretex-clad knees. 3. Use half ropes and screamers. Much lower impact force on your screws, ergo much lower chance of the screw ripping if you fall. It should go without saying that you don't want to fall if you can help it. I've yet to take a lead fall on ice and hope to keep it that way. 4. If you'll be climbing waterfalls, get clearance shaft tools if you can afford them. There may be some folks out there who will argue this one, and there are tons of guys out there who have climbed insane stuff on straight-shafted tools, but as far as I'm concerned there's no contest if you'll be climbing picked out ice or clearing many bulges. I've spent the last two seasons climbing on straight-shafted prophets and dig these tools in general, but when dealing with honeycombed ice or bulges clearance shaft tools are just way more secure. If you're a good enough ice climber I suppose it doesn't matter which tool you use, but must folks I know - especially those just starting out - find climbing with clearance shaft tools much more secure. 4. Buy screws that you can place quickly. My personal favorites are the Grivel 360s as I find I can place them much more quickly. I spend much less time preparing the ice on account of their floating handle, and find that I can crank them in much more quickly. Other folks prefer BD Express screws. In any event - buy screws with handles on the cranks if you'll be doing much leading on waterfalls. The faster you can get your screws in the happier you'll be. 5. Get one of those racking deals for your screws. There's a lot of different systems out there that work. Find something that will allow you to get your screws off of your harness and into your hands quickly. Nothing sucks more than desperately fumbling around with the gear on your harness with your numb hands when you're pumped silly and want nothing more than to get a screw in. I have three or four BD ice-clippers on my harness and that seems to work for me. Other ideas? [ 11-14-2002, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

I now know that hitting stop after hitting "Submit Post" and then hitting "Reload" will lead to a double post.... [ 10-03-2002, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

quote: Originally posted by erik: jayb you dont carry your windbreaker.... by the way that thing works great!!!! Just consider me a sponsor, homie...at least until we head out again. Have you had a rematch with that OW yet?

I brought all of that stuff along on longer climbs for a long time and never used any of it - until this season. I've had a couple of mini-epics this year and have actually had to dig into this stuff once or twice: On grade III or longer climbs, or those with a really long approach, I pack along: Knife Extra webbing Two Tiblocs, prusik, small pulley Tikka Windbreaker Hat Thermal top A bit of extra food (just enough to fend off starvation overnight) Lighter&Firestarter Space blanket bivy Shades Map&Compass if I don't know the way... Not sure what it all weighs - but I hardly notice it in the pack and all of the non-climbing stuff take up about an inch in the bottom of a bullet pack. Sure is nice to have when the time comes...

quote: Originally posted by Fence Sitter: i was checking out and a static 10.5 mill is about 27kn breaking strenght and has an elongation of 3% whereas dynamic ropes have about 9 kn breaking strength, but have 7.5% stretch... No hostility intended here, but the 9kN figure is the not the breaking strength of the rope, but rather the maximum impact force that the rope will generate in a factor two fall. Any UIAA certified single rope will handle a load well into the high 20 kN range before breaking. Count me in with the folks who think there is just no way that either Erden or Goran would have failed to recognize that they were tying in with a static rope. Try actually threading a static rope through a belay device or tying into a harness with one and see what you think. We're all speculating here, but I think Ray had it right - first piece blows, biner on the next piece breaks, and the rest fail. The fact that so many pieces blew in series stongly suggests that at the time of the fall they were not optimally situated in the rock. Could have walked, could have been the original placement, certainly could have had something to do with the characteristics of the basalt. We'll probably never know the full story - but hopefully learning as much as possible about what actually happened will provide some comfort for his friends and family. [ 10-02-2002, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

I think that Ray may have been asking about the conditions you encountered in the Canadian Rockies on your recent trip out there. I think he took a trip out there with FB and Dennis Harmon, amongst others, not too long ago.

Very sad indeed. Horibble news. Condolences to friends and family.

As long as were on the topic of Dreamer/Green Giant Buttress - anyone know the name of the big granite formation to the climbers right (across the valley)? Anyone know any info about the climbing history on that sucker, or the lack thereof. It should be marked with a red X on the map found here: http://www.topozone.com/map.aspz=10&n=5334386&e=601020&s=25

I think I've done two in the first volume and two in the second. Going for the big number 5 this weekend, baby!

Well - there's still the unbolted final pitch for all of the runout junkies out there! It seems when it comes to the runouts on slabs there's a fine line between crafting a classic route with run-outs that keep a leader who's up to the grade fully engaged during the climb (Online comes to mind), and a gut-wrenching death route that no one ever climbs. I'm not against such routes in principle, especially when they were put up on lead and the FA naturally had to leave the crux(es) unprotected, but doubt I'll have the heuvos to climb many of them intentionally. Anyhow - IMO the Dreamer/Safe-Sex combo falls squarely into the "classic" camp. Even on the last couple of bolted lines the bolts near the end of the pitches were spaced widely enough to provoke plenty of thought in this guy's head. (I think I may have inadvertently skipped the last bolt on the next-to-last pitch though). I did have some serious leader's fatigue going on by that point so your opinion may vary... Kudos to mattp and co for putting up a sweet line. [ 09-26-2002, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

Great summary of the route. Thanks for adding it to the site.

quote: Originally posted by Muir on Saturday: somebody bolted some climbing holds to one of the pillars below a 520 on-ramp in the arborateum. you can rent a canoe at the UW near the climbing rock. A photo of these routes showed up on the front page of the Seattle Times local section this summer. As you might expect, this led to their removal shortly thereafter - that is unless someone has re-installed the routes within the past three weeks or so since my last visit to the arboretum. Anyone know how long those routes were in place prior to getting chopped? Has the installation/chopping cycle been repeated before?

Did the Safe-Sex/Dreamer combo a couple of weeks ago. I'll second the recommendation to take the first couple of pitches of SS and then shift over to Dreamer. The direct start to the Urban Bypass variation looks cool as well - maybe next time. On this outing I was leading everything and knew I'd have some serious leader's fatigue if I got on anything too burly down low.... [ 09-23-2002, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

Congratulations Matt! And let's not forget GregW, who also exchanged vows with his lovely bride yesterday...

Most of the views of the formations in and around Darrington were obscured be clouds on the last trip out to the Green Giant Buttress, but thankfully the conditions were quite a bit more favorable for climbing and taking in the scenery yesterday. As we were heading up the approach slaps I noticed a pretty substantial granite formation to across the drainage to the right (if you're at the base of GGB, facing the rock). Anyone know the name of that formation and or any details about the climbing history out there, if there is any? Gracias, [ 09-15-2002, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

Thanks for all of the hard work, Andy! Matt and Darryl speak with far more authority on this issue than I do, so I'll limit my commentary to a wholehearted agreement with them.

quote: Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman: Looked like the fang to me, and the URL seems to bear that out. Goes at WI6 when it's fully formed. I walked past it a couple of times last year, during the first pass it had yet to touch down and a full on shower was dripping through the core. I could see that the ice was about an inch thick, although it would be hard to know just how thick it was once it had formed fully. Once of the guys I was chatting with had been climbing in the area for several years and talked about watching Helgi Christiansen climb it in early season conditions, then watching the entire formation collapse a day or two later. I stopped by later in the season after it had touched down and filled in. In its first thirty feet the route ascended through the overhung base an ice-formation that looked like something roughly akin to a massive frozen pine cone. Once can apparently hook these things but sinking a screw in them is apparently next to impossible. Maybe you would be able to sling them if you could hang on long enough, but most folks who climb ice at that level just climb through to the vertical stalk. Then it's another 90 feet of dead vertical to slightly overhanging ice, then out over a small roof and onto a hanging ice-curtain to the finish. It is a killer picture, but afte being there and looking at that sucker in person, the first sensation I feel upon looking at it is a mild case of nausea, followed by the desire to run away and hide under something. How about a picture of a nice, 10 foot thick WI3 flow of blue plastic ice? That'd get this guy excited... [ 09-12-2002, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: JayB ]

I'm no PR man but I'd certainly be willing to pitch-in in some fashion or another to make things work.(Not organizing the event but helping anyone who takes on the job). Just not sure what that might entail at this point. Any ideas from folks who have been to previous ice-fests up there as to what factors besides good conditions might make the event a success? I know that the Ouray Ice fest is pretty huge - taking a look at what they've done (besides creating a massive ice park) might be a place to start. [ 09-11-2002, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

Just thought I'd post some positive feedback from a buyer's perspective here. I sent Mike a check for his hammer this Saturday and got the goods in the mail today. Prompt delivery and the hammer's in good shape to boot. Definitely a thumbs up transaction. Now I just hope that check clears...