JayB

quote: Originally posted by chucK: Ludicrous! Why should this be a yardstick? What is so special about climbing? How about "imagine yourself trying to do the hardest math test they're capable of acing?" How about "imagine yourself trying to build the Lego creation that person has done". Chuck - I certainly wasn't taking a stand for the right to say something stupid or offensive without rebuke. Different topic entirely, sorry If I didn't make that clear in my post. As far as the legos examples of legos and mathematics are concerned, that too is something entirely different. Expertise in a given field certainly does not entitle one to immunity from criticism in all other endeavors oneself, nor does it give one the right to critise everyone else whose attainments in their own field don't quite measure up to your own accomplishments in say, competitive lego events. If, however, you are involved in competitive lego building yourself and are about to make demeaning comments to a fellow lego enthusiast about his prowress with the said legos, you should, I think, take your own lego building accomplishments into account before opening your mouth. That's all.

quote: Originally posted by Dru: JayB if I could respectively disagree for a minnit here, I dont belive you have to climb at a certain grade to criticize ethics. For instance, I can say chipping holds on a blank wall to make a 5.14 is unethical and that the chipped holds should be "repaired" with cement or whatever, even if I'm only a 5.7 climber. The principle of the thing is the same no matter what grade you climb at. Same goes with criticizing bolts being placed next to usable gear placements, the principle is the same no matter if its a 5.7 or 5.14 gear route being retrobolted. Dru: You're absolutely right if what we're talking about is ethics. Although the absence of caffeine in my veins probably made my post a bit more vague and rambling than it had to be, the only ethics I meant to touch on were the "ethics" of talking smack about one's fellow climbers. I think ethics is the wrong word to describe the phenomenon, but I've just never been able to figure out the folks who think the fact that they refrain from sport climbing entitles them to belittle the folks that do, without taking the full scope of their respective abilities into account. I just brought up the case of Lambone and the folks who attack him as perhaps the most glaring example of this phenomenon. It's a species of BS that I've never encountered outside of this board, and I figured that it was high time someone called it for what it is.

I second, or third, or whatever the motion. One of the best entries on the subject I've ever seen.

quote: Originally posted by chucK: Remember our dear departed CrazyPolishBob? He was an obnoxious prick but he claimed to climb 5.13's or something. According to your standards noone here could flame him (or 86 him). Chuck - That, I have to admit, is one badass lego creation. Also, since you did me a favor and took the time to point out a couple of elements within my post that I either didn't explain very well, or could be easily misconstrued I'll return to your post once more. Hopefully I'll do a better job explaining myself this (last)time. AS far as CPB is concerned, I wasn't suggesting that anyone should refrain from commenting on his etiquette, his spelling, his hair, his taste in sushi, or anything else simply because he reputedly climbs some seriously hard shit. What I was trying to say though, is that in my opinion no one has any business calling the guy a weak-ass climber unless their own abilities and accomplishments as a climber exceed CPB's. Walk the walk before you talk the talk. It's an old cliche', and consequently not a very new idea. It's also one that might just improve the tone of the discussion around here from time to time, or at least I think so. That's all. [ 08-21-2002, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: Some time ago JayB suggested that perhaps you didn’t climb hard and that may be influencing your viewpoint While I normally come down squarely on PP's side on these things, I should clarify my old point a bit. I believe this was in a thread where I got annoyed by Dwayner's comments about bouldering, and suggested that if he attempted anything at half the grade that the guys featured in the story were sending, he'd probably be better able to appreciate the power and skill involved at leading edge bouldering. He replied with something to the effect that boulering just wasn't his deal and he could rip on it all he wanted without ever becoming proficient at it, for aesthetic reasons if nothing else, and that's where we left it. While it may have come off otherwise, my intent was not to suggest that he did not or could not climb hard, because until now I didn't have any idea what he had climbed, and there was a strong chance that his burliest trad leads were quite a bit tougher than mine - though that's hardly an exclusive club. Anyone who has lead 5.12 trad is, in my opinion, one bad mofo. Maybe it's just the "new school" in me , but I've always thought that a sense of shame or a desire to avert embarassment, if nothing else, should keep you from talking shit about someone who is better than you at whatever it is you're discussing. So if we're talking about bouldering and the hardest boulder problem you have completed, or were capable of completing at the moment, is a V1 you'd really have no business talking smack about Fred Nicole. Same goes for trad, alpine, ice, or any other sub-discipline of climbing that you particpate in. :Warning - rant that follows really doesn't have much to do with content of this thread, and isn't directed at any particular person - just a phenomenon I've noticed. Read on if bored or incarcerated: I suppose that's one of the things that I've never understood about some of the spray(ers) on this site. Take a guy like Lambone for instance (though it could be anyone who gets out on hard stuff) - does grade V free routes, big aid routes like The Shield, long alpine routes, leads WI-*$#ing-5, etc - yet there are people out there who think that the fact that they have some business calling this guy a pussy because he clips bolts and they don't, regardless of what grade they lead at the trad-crags. Amazing. This despite the fact that I'd be willing to bet that 98% of the folks that chime in about sport climbing as the definitive route to wussdom would likely be shut down in a massive way - think not even making it to the first bolt - trying to follow his hardest sport leads - and let's not even talk about the WI5 stuff. I suspect it's just the anonymity of the internet at work once again. It's been said before that the tone on this board would be much less harsh if people pretended that they were talking face to face, rather than over an anonymous medium. I agree with that and have tried to live the credo, though I suppose we all fall short at times. I have another one to add - before making negative comments about one of your fellow climbers, imagine yourself at the base of the hardest route they're capable of leading at the moment - with an audience. The rack is in your hands and it's your lead. Still feel like talking? If not, maybe consider easing up on the spray a bit. Just a thought....

The Eastlake Zoo would be dope...

Very cool outing indeed! I'd be into heading out there again in September to finish up the road and the bolts on American Pie. Also, thanks to Mattp and Bchaps for sharing the photos, and to Darryl for the cold beverages back at the cars - and of course to the dudes who had the vision to establish the routes in the first place and heuvos necessary to install all of those bolts on lead [ 08-19-2002, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

Those radios with the hands-free operation would be nice though. I've just never hand any money left over for such things in the gear budget after buying ropes, pro, etc.

I If it's too windy to communicate verbally I've always used a system of tugs to notify my partner when I'm off belay after a lead, when they're on belay and can climb on, etc. Having said that though, most parties can probably get by using the normal verbal signals in conjunction with the conclusion that when the leader starts to pull the rope, he's safely anchored, and establishing that the leader will put the second on belay as soon as all of the rope has been pulled up and a minute or so has passed. I just like to have a system to back up the normal cues for those times when it's windy, rainy, dark, fatigue has set in, and the like and the potential for fatal mistakes due to miscommmunication is a bit higher.

Well - I suppose with any tool it comes down to the competence of the person using it. Anyone who can't decide when it is, and isn't appropriate to try to operate them in the middle of a climb "I'm at the crux....jam not very good..greasing out...pulling cam off rack...can't...quite..place it....faaaaallllling...", can't manage the basic tasks associated with keeping them in working order in the field, or becomes utterly dependent on them as a substitute for the normal signals should probably take up a different pasttime, IMO. I've used them once, when a partner of mine brought a pair for a long alpine route in Rocky Mountain National Park. It wasn't an especially difficult route (like III 5.8 or something) but when we ran into the stuff that can make communication difficult, like rope drag, constant high winds, snow, and not being able to see one another I can recall of a couple of times when they helped out, like the point when my partner had run out the rope and needed me to simul-up about 10 feet so that he could make it to a stance where he actually had some pro and could make an anchor. The ability to discuss the situation right away instead of hanging out at the belay forever wondering what the *#@! was going on up there resulted in a faster, safer ascent than would have been possible otherwise. The additional speed was especially nice as the afternoon electrical storms were already on their way. I wouldn't mind having a pair on me on long alpine routes if in the event that I ran into a situation like that again, for the same reason that I keep a pair of ti-blocks, a couple of prusiks, and a knife on long routes. Don't need any of them very often but they're awfully nice to have when you do.

I can recall hearing something about having to use a Tyrolean traverse and/or a crumbling bridge to access the Royal Columns a few months ago. Is this still the case? Alternatives? Also - any routes that you'd care to recommend in addition to Orange Sunshine? Thanks,

I was all set to do some controlled experiments involving rapid, involuntary descents down slabs this weekend (even had the double Carhartt's on). However - Juan, being the very nice guy that he is, was not content to simply give me really good information about Online - he actually saw fit to position himself a few feet to the right of Greg and I on Offline and hook us up with some very valuable and much appreciated beta for Online's business pitch. Big thumbs up to Juan - nice to meet a fellow cc'er out on the rock.

John: Well I wish I could say that the line I took was the result of a deliberate decision on my part, but the fact of the matter is that I was just looking for the easiest line, all the while wondering to myself "Hmmmm-err-Just where is this feature that's supposed to appear after the second bolt?" I refrained from asking in order to avoid appearing any more dense or timid than necessary. I probably would have hung looking for it even longer than I did if the few drops of rain that were falling hadn't given me the encouragement to keep moving.... But anyway - back to the Buick sedan. Greg and I rode to area in the white toyota truck topped with the black canopy that you may have seen at the turnoff, so we can't take credit for the incredible feat of automotive bravado that took place within the confines of that Blue Buick. On the way down Greg and I heard a couple of folks thrashing around in the gully and decided to inquire if they were looking for Static Point or just out for a hike. They said they were looking to do some rock climbing and Greg and I let them know that if that was the case that they should take the trail that we were descending. An easy enough mistake to make - if Greg hadn't shown me where the trail was I'm sure I would have walked right past it also. Anyway - it looked like the owners of the care were two young fellows of about 20. From what we could see of their packs it looked like they had one rope and a few draws between them - which suggested that they might not be too familiar with the nature of the climbing out there but it seemed fair to give them the benefit of the doubt and let them judge for themselves after they had a look at the routes. Anyway - the doubts that we had about those fellows were amplified considerably when we got a look at their vehicle - the aforementioned Buick, sporting several dozen new racing stripes down each side courtesy of the encroaching underbrush they drove through, and the massive log they maneuvered the car under. Very impressive work with a sedan, but nothing compared to what it would take to do the whole thing again in reverse! We saw the Air Force Academy fame on the license and could only hope that these weren't cadets on their way to assuming control of B-52's or our nuclear arsenal... Take Care, [ 07-14-2002, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

quote: Originally posted by Dennis Harmon: My first on-sight lead was on a spit of rock between the North and South Gateway rocks in the Garden of the Gods, a city park in Colorado Springs. Dennis South Ridge of White Spire? Were you in town when Steve Hong, Steve Cheney, Pete Gallagher, Jimmy Dunn, etc were putting up stuff?

Thanks to all for the info on the climb and the clarification on the ratings. Even if a climb really is a III 5.10B R - apparently this isn't - that can mean a lot of things. All depends on where the 5.10 is in relation to the R. Based on what I saw of the slabs in the Platte a 5.10b R route there would be absolutely gut-wrenching and not anything I'd want to mess with. However, most of the non-R 5.9 slab stuff, while thought provoking, was within my range, and the place isn't really known for soft grades or excessive bolting. But maybe I'll wear the double Carhartt's just in case..... Thanks again for all of the information.

quote: Originally posted by Dennis Harmon: Jay B, Damn! A voice from the past writing about the Center Route on Cynical Pinnacle... good route! Did you climb Turf Speader too? I never did get up the final tower pitch on that thing. Dennis The crack on the face above Turf Spreader looked amazing, but from what I can recall it was protected by a 5.11OW roof below. We just stopped, took a look, shook our heads and moved on. Also - thanks to everyone for the suggestions. Where's this Davis Holland Crack at?

Outer Space is the shiznit (although the Remorse start is pretty marginal IMO). The only route that I've been on that rivals it (and possibly beats it) is the Center Route on the Cynical Pinnacle out in the South Platte - but it's a close call. Votes for the best III 5.10 in the State? Any suggestions appreciated... [ 07-09-2002, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

Looking for a bare bones set-up that'll get me to and from alpine stuff in my plastics this winter -any info on suggested set-ups and/or sales appreciated. Best Regards,

I've seen this climb rated at III 5.10b R, and although I'm cool with the III, the 5.10, and the R (up to 5.8R, that is), I've got a way to go before I'm cool with a 5.10b R pitch. So the question is - is the R rated stuff on the easier pitches - pretty typical for slabby stuff - or does the R-stuff happen on the business pitch? Thanks in advance for any info. [ 07-09-2002, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

Carl - thansk for posting the article. I respect Raleigh in a lot of ways but he is way off the mark on this one. Here's my rant on this topic from a while back.... The word from the internet rumor mill (rec.climbing http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&threadm=abbduc%24kh%242%40reader1.panix.com&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Drec.climbing%26hl%3Den%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch )is that the recent editorial had its genesis when quite a few specialty retailers and US manufacturers threw a tantrum when Climbing and/or Rock and Ice ran an ad from a Dutch website in their last issue that actually listed the prices for the goods that they were selling. I guess so long as Barrabes restricted its add copy to “Check Prices” it was okay (?). Supposedly (“It’s on the internet so it must be true”) the specialty retailers sent back their entire shipments of the magazines, and a few manufacturers called and threatened to pull their advertising and voila – we have an editorial asking consumers to stop buying their goods from European retailers and continue paying over twice as much in the US instead. In my opinion, a magazine dedicated to climbers would have better served its readership by demanding that US manufacturers, distributors, and retailers explain why it is that American consumers should continue to pay twice as much as their European counterparts for the very same goods instead of going to bat for a system that is currently working in the interest of everyone except the consumer. See rant below if imprisoned, terminally bored, etc… In my opinion, they (the folks in the outdoor biz here in the US ) have quite a bit of explaining to do as it’s not: -Tarrifs: The current tarriff levied on climbing equipment is 4%. -Production costs: Production costs in Europe are comparable to, if not slightly higher than in America. -Distribution costs: Commercial shipping on containers and semi-trailers probably adds 2 to 4 percent to the cost of any imported consumer item, tops. -The exchange rate: The current exchange rate gives US consumers about 10% more purchasing power when we’re buying goods denominated in Euros. -Retailing expenses: There’s no evidence to suggest that they’re higher in Europe than in the US either. -The size of the market: It may be true that a greater percentage of European public climbs than in America, but it’s hardly a sport for the masses over there. Even if a greater fraction of the European public participates than in the US, a fractionally higher rate of participation does not translate into goods that can be sold at a profit for around half of the retail price that we’re paying. -The size of the market, again: I’ve heard some speculation that because the market for climbing gear is limited, manufacturers and retailers have no incentive to lower their prices because that won’t translate into greater sales. Therefore – why not charge as much as you can for each unit and maximize your profits. This argument simply does not hold up because the reality is that the market for EVERY good is limited by demand, be it concrete, crude oil, or automobiles – or ice tools. Therefore, it does not follow that having a finite market leads to high/fixed prices – the only thing that can do that is eliminating competition. If any manufacturer is selling a good within finite market and can increase their market share by offering an equivalent product for a lower price, they can expand their sales and their profits at the expense of their competitors even if the size of the overall market stays fixed. It’s just a matter of calculating how many additional units you have to sell in order to compensate for the lower profit margin per-unit. At that point the manufacturers who are being undercut can either lower their prices or hope that consumers will be willing to pay a premium for what they have to offer. The fact that manufacturers and retailers can sell their goods at a profit in Europe for less than half of what they are charging here is about as clear a refutation of the notion that the size of the market dictates that we have to pay $235 for ice tools, $140 for rock shoes, etc. Taking a look as US produced goods on sale in Europe is especially revealing. It’s very often cheaper to buy US goods overseas and pay to have them shipped across the Atlantic twice – once at retail rates (!)- than to buy locally. In the end – if you as a consumer are willing to pay twice as much at a shop for the expertise, hands on inspection, etc – you are certainly free to do so. I just don’t think that those of us who do not value those services should be forced to pay for them. If anyone out there actually has some factual information to share about the situation, I’d love to hear it. I’d be especially interested in hearing about the US distribution system and/or the contractual obligations (price range) that retailers have to abide by if they wish to sell a particular product. "

On this site, as in life, you're treated the way you act....

Found some gear while climbing OS via the Remorse start. Looks like it was left relatively recently (past few days). Identify the gear and the pitch and it's yours... Update - the rightful owner has spoken.... [ 07-07-2002, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

More on the same topic here... http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002425

Thanks for the suggestion. Sounds like that might be the best way to handle that situation.

quote: Originally posted by Dennis Harmon: JayB, Basically what you're saying is that you've never done squat for your country and you're going to try to turn the argument around. Just admit it, lad, you've done nothing and never will. Dennis Well, since I already took the bait on this one... With respect to the draft, I never answered a call that never came. As far as not doing anything for my country goes, I'd again have to disagree that serving in the Armed forces is the only way one can make a contribution. As a Scout I'd say I took part in at least 3-4 community service projects a year growing up, and took part in at least two or three a year in high-school in soup kitchens, old-folk's homes, etc. In college I took the initiative to plan and execute a food drive that generated 500 bags of groceries for Northwest Harvest, and worked with a local coffee roaster to get gourmet coffee at wholesale prices for a coffee sale around Christmas time, the proceeds of which we turned over to the same organization. I also organized two high-way clean-ups and worked as a tutor for low income kids in a housing-shelter for a year while working and completing a double-degree in Biochemistry and History. After moving to CO and starting on with an investment company out there I worked on at least two habitat for humanity projects, helped coordinate a United Way pledge drive that raised nearly $10,000 in contributions in our local office which in turn generated a $20,000 gift from HQ for the local community, and gave $250 per year to United Way myself by way of payroll deductions. I also got out in the mountains quite a bit, and while there helped in two rescues and a trail maintenance project. So I've never been to war. Neither have you. You were paid to serve the country, I've never asked for a cent. There are plenty of men in this country who are in a position to tell me that their contributions to this nation far outweigh mine - I grew up around quite a few - but you're not one of them. Later,