JayB

It's frustrating to hear about this sort of thing, as it sounds like there's not much for the police to go on at this point. I know how upset I've been when someone has stolen things ouf of my car and/or vandalized it -and that wasn't even in the same league as some stupid-ass mofo firing into a car I was sleeping in at point blank range - so I can only imagine how you're feeling at this point. Hopefully the folks who believe in karma are onto something and this jackass will be on the receiving end of some random violence before too long. I can't imagine anyone treading down the path that this bastard is on for too long before the tables are turned and he's reaping what he's sown.

Yo Col: That seriously sucks. I'm glad that everyone came out of it okay and stayed alive despite some inbred jackass shooting into your car as you slept. WTF!!!! I've crashed on the side of the road all over the country but have thus far been fortunate enough to have been left alone out there. However, I hardly ever go to sleep without thinking about the something along the lines of what the two of you went through out there going down. It's usually just for a second, then I blow it off and pass out, but it's a bit chilling to hear that somebody did actually have a run in with some stupid-ass POS packing a weapon out there. Hope you get your car back soon and this mofo is either killed, arrested, or never heard from again. [ 10-28-2002, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

quote: Originally posted by daler: Ps The ice in Colorado is coming in, with the high stuff ready to go.[/QB] Yup Probably looks something like this right about now... (on 10.24.2002) Current Conditions Comment: Mt. Lincoln conditions on 10/24/2: Main flow is in, wet, thin in spots on the lower bit. The upper bit is wide & fat. Rocky stretch between the 2. Scottish-type gully on L is good, fun. Lower R curtain is fat, vertical, chopped out. R side of lower R curtain is in, less steep, chandeliered a bit. Upper curtain is not touching down. 2 sets of bolts on top of main flow. 1 set of bolts on far R side of lower R curtain. Busy, 12+ people, 7+ cars today. Also, I-70 sickle, Idaho Springs falls are dripping, not in. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [ 10-28-2002, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: JayB ]

quote: Originally posted by leejams: So it is $11 for an annual? Is there one of those places I can stop at on I-90 to vantage? I think that the pass will be valid until March of 03. Buy every March to get the most months per dollar I guess. I've heard that the general store in George sells the passes (not sure though) but there's also got to be dozens of hook and bullet type sporting goods stores in E-Burg that sell fishing and hunting licenses that could hook you up as well. Have a good time over there.

Done.

Hey Leejams: I thought you'd heard something about a 3rd pass or something specific to the Coulee. Unless there's a new pass out there I think what you'll need is one of the Access Stewardship stickers that you can pick up for $11 at any outfit that sells hunting and fishing licenses (you can pick one up for free if you're buying either of those). Between that and the NW Forest Pass you should be covered at most parking lots in the NW unless they're added a third "Frenchman's Pass" or something.

Hey Pindude: That's the one I recall. Thanks for looking it up and posting it here. Here's the text from the link: Novice Sues 'Veteran' Climber for Nasty Fall April 29, 2001 COPYRIGHT 2001, THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE Dangling from a rope on a rock formation in Big Cottonwood Canyon, Lindsey Enloe knew she was placing her life in her date's hands. An athletic, outgoing 24-year-old, Enloe was a climbing novice. But Stephen Stinson had supplied all of the equipment, chosen the location for the climb and reassured her he was a 12-year veteran rock climber. She never imagined the outing would end with her plummeting to the bottom of the rock in a heap. Enloe, who suffered serious injuries in the April 19, 1997, fall, sued Stinson earlier this month in 3rd District Court. Her negligence claim adds rock climbing to a growing list of outdoor sports prompting lawsuits that ask Utah courts to decide who should bear responsibility when accidents occur. And although clear precedent exists for accident victims to sue tour groups, resorts or national parks, litigation between people engaging in arguably high-risk outdoor recreation is unusual. Enloe's Salt Lake City attorneys, Stuart Hinckley and David Burns, have not yet found a similar rock-climbing case in Utah, although they say the case is clear-cut: Stinson told Enloe he was an experienced climber and therefore had a duty to keep her reasonably safe. Stinson secured nylon climbing webbing, similar to a flat rope, to the top of the rock, but improperly attached that webbing to the nylon rope holding Enloe, the suit alleges. The rope rubbed against the webbing, breaking it and sending Enloe to the ground, the suit said. The fall left Enloe with a broken pelvis, foot and wrist and a concussion. Her right arm and wrist are permanently impaired and subject to uncontrollable spasms and pain. Enloe also suffered internal injuries and wonders at the age of 29 whether she can bear children. To add insult to her injuries, Stinson did not tell her he was married at the time of the date, her attorneys said. Attempts to reach Stinson at his Farmington, Mich., home for comment were unsuccessful. Enloe met Stinson as he was setting up audio equipment for a charity event she was organizing. Part of his job involved hanging equipment using a harness and ropes, she said. "When he told me he had been technically climbing for 12ish years, I had no reason to believe otherwise," Enloe said, adding she would not have attempted the climb alone. But Enloe said she became angry when a friend looked at the equipment Stinson had used and told her it had been set up wrongly, in a mistake the friend said only a rank amateur would make. At the time, Enloe was living in Salt Lake City but planning a move to Montreal. She has since returned to her hometown of Vernal to be near family and is teaching at a vocational school. Enloe did not consider suing Stinson until she discussed the accident with another friend, who encouraged her to find out if it could help her pay for mounting medical bills. University of Utah Law School professor John Flynn, who teaches tort law, said it is rare for one climber to sue another. If successful, the claim could spur others of its kind, pitting more outdoor adventurers against one another when something goes wrong, he said. Chicago attorney Mitchell Orpett, who heads the American Bar Association's Torts and Insurance Practice Section, said the suit may succeed. "If this guy is representing himself as an expert, it in essence is really like a suit against an organization supplying expertise," Orpett said. "As a defense lawyer, I would argue that the duty is one of reasonable care, not of perfection and absolute safety." Utah courts have set high standards for proving negligence in cases related to at least one popular outdoor activity: skiing. Salt Lake attorney Jeffrey Eisenberg han- dled, and lost, a case in which one skier was suing another after an accident. He said the recent filing could face similar obstacles, with courts reluctant to assign blame for sporting mishaps. The possibility of lawsuits is not a new concern for the all- volunteer Wasatch Mountain Club and similar groups in the West. The WMC requires members or potential members to sign legal waivers before participating in activities. Legalities aside, Enloe's suit raises the question of how much responsibility a person should take when engaging in outdoor sports - - an issue Curtis Turner, co-director of the club's rock-climbing group, thinks about often. "No one can ever tell you everything is totally safe," said Turner, 30. "You have to have some common sense and ask some questions. If someone says, 'I know where the trail is,' but he really doesn't and you get lost, should you have gone hiking unless you knew you could make it on your own out there?" In the meantime, Enloe does not see herself as a victim. Uncomfortable at the thought of being labeled a "money-grubber" for filing the suit, she does not expect the apology she never got. But she does hope the suit could provide her financial restitution and restore her confidence in people. "I was a very trusting person," Enloe said. "That's changed."

Besides the Access Stewardship deal? What have you heard?

I think that the name of the group that they list on the credits for the video is "Los Cunaos del Fonk," but the artists were listed under "La Puta Opepe" (?) or something like that when I found the file on Kazaa. Here's a link to the only info on the band that I could find - En Espanol. http://www.lafactoriadelritmo.com/fact12/discos/cunaos.shtml If you can't find it on the net let me know and I'll see if I can send you a disk with the song on it.

Definitely a sweet video. Good music on that one too. I finally found that Spanish rap number on the 'net and burned onto a CD. Not quite the same without the dude screaming in the background though... [ 10-24-2002, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

Anyone out there have any experience with the Cloudveil Enclosure deal with the primaloft insulation? I have a down jacket that was great for the rockies but I've had my eye on one of the synthetic jobs for the wet PNW conditions. Looks like a pretty sweet coat and it's received favorable reviews elsewhere.

ELDORADO CANYON STATE PARK Fort Collins climber injured in fall A 34-year-old male rock climber from Fort Collins was airlifted to St. Anthony's Central Hospital in Denver after falling 40 feet in Eldorado Canyon State Park. According to witnesses, the victim's climbing partner lost control while lowering the climber to the ground. The climber suffered head injuries and was unconscious at the scene. Members of Rocky Mountain Rescue and the Eldorado Springs Fire Department carried the victim about one-quarter mile to an ambulance. He was then driven to the Flight for Life helicopter, which was waiting at the Eldorado Springs Fire station. The victim was flown to St. Anthony's, where he underwent tests to determine the extent of his injuries. From the Discussion List: I was in Eldo, watched the rescue; the guy looked in bad shape. The rescue guys were doing an impressive job of getting the him down the talus, lowering/carrying the stretcher tree to tree. According to some other climbers nearby, the accident involved someone being lowered off of Darkness 'til Dawn. Of course, a sixty-meter rope (who knows, maybe they had even a shorter rope?) will not be long enough for lowering off the two bolts, as they are about 120 feet up. Their rope went through the belay plate and the climber got pretty badly hurt. Horrible injuries are easy to imagine, as one is usually leaning backwards while being lowered, and the fall zone is bouldery and flattish. He had no helmet. As far as I know, there has never been an accident on Darkness 'til Dawn before. Myself, for Darkness, I usually take two ropes (which works well for protecting the traverse moves into the corner low down). The one-rope descent is to rappel/lower carefully to very close to the end of the rope, then scramble down 25 feet or so on steep third-class rock. - Myke Komarnitsky Hopefully this fellow will pull through. I can remember this climb pretty well and while being lowered off anywhere would be terrible, I remember the landing zone at the base of this route looking especially bad. This sort of thing shows up all to often in ANAM. - I've tried to get in the habbit of tying a knot on the belayer's end of the rope whenever I'm on lead so that I'll remember to do so when it counts. Might be overkill for some folks but I like to keep the force of habbit on my side. Some other stuff I do know... -Ditto for raps where it looks like we'll be nearing the end of the rope and/or I can't see where the rap ends. -Also rig an autoblock if I'll have to futz with the ropes on the way down, it's dark, icy, rainy, etc or things just feel sketchy.

One of the beta versions of the guide with a long list o' climbs can be found here: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/iceinwashington.htm

Jason/Alex: Thanks for the effort. Looking forward to the guide.

quote: Originally posted by chucK: My question is genuine. Assuming you accept bolting as legitimate, which I think I do (I certainly do implicitly accept them when clipping them), why do we draw the line so easily with chipping? Psychological aid versus physical aid? Why is one acceptable and the other not? Okey-dokey - I get it now. Chuck: I really wasn't trying to be hostile there or attribute any sinister motives to you - although I recognize that from your vantage point it might have seemed that way. I just wanted to figure out what your real question was there - which now seems obvious after reading your post again. Just chalk it up to some Friday afternoon reading comprehension issues on my part. I think it's a valid question about chipping, and I too look forward to hearing what folks have to say on this one.

quote: Originally posted by chucK: What really is the big difference between chipping a hold and placing a bolt? Chuck: This seems less like an honest question than a rhetorical gambit in which you've attempted equate bolting with chipping to me. Do you really believe that the two are equivalent? Or are you just playing Socrates here and get folks thinking about some of the assumptions they've taken for granted? Couldn't the same be said for pitons, cams in sandstone, etc? Seems like in both of the latter cases you're modifying the rock in order to avoid falling to your death. Not sure if you're just trying to get folks chatting about the ethics of bolting again ( ) or have another objective in mind. Care to share?

quote: Originally posted by Greg W: JayB; When we climb together next remind me to have you sign my boilerplate injury waiver Not until I fake an injury and sue for more meals and brew at your place for compensation. Might even work carrying all of my gear to the base of each and every crag and leading all of the hard pitches into the settlement if I can get the right lawyer on board. On a sort of related topic - I did read about one recreational climer suing her "partner" a couple of years ago. From what I can recall what happened is this: some guy told this woman that he was an expert climber and took her out to the crags for their first date. He climbs the first route, sets a TR and raps down. His date climbs to the top on TR and begins to lower, then falls to the gound. Turns out that the yutz rigged the rope through bare webbing and as she lowered under tension the rope burned right through. She'd never seen a top-rope anchor before and had no idea. I think the story showed up in the news because she won and it was the first verdict of its kind (?). If anyone has has any energy left after reading the political thread it might be interesting to hear what other folks have to say about this one. I personally don't like the precedent it set, although I sympathize with this dude's date. [ 10-10-2002, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: JayB ]

You are certainly right to reiterate the risks that come along with climbing, Matt. My point was not to minimize those risks but to suggest that even if you are fortunte enough to go avoid any injury whatsoever while climbing, the odds are pretty low that you'll make it through the rest of your life without an accident, disease, etc. that'll make an investment in health insurance pay off in a big way. In a related story, I had a friend who made his living as an independent architect, and was turned down by quite a number of companies offering health insurance policies on account of his interest in mountaineering. Although he eventually found a good policy that he could affort, ee made some more queries to find out what hobbies/past-times were acceptable. One that always appeared on the "acceptable" list was skydiving, as the insurers figured that if there was an accident, it would be the funeral insurer's problem, not theirs. It'd be intersting to hear what D-Dog has to say about B.A.S.E. jumpers getting individual health/life/disability insurance.

One important element that has been left out of the equation thus far is the shit that happens outside of climbing, which is probably more likely. Car, wrecks, cancer, etc - pretty scary to me. Right now I'm carrying over my old employers insurance for about $170 a month, although I may not be able to aford that indefinitely while going back to school. If that's the case I will get a catastrophic policy ($1500 deductible)for about $40 a month through Regence Blue Shield. If you can afford to climb, then odds are you can afford to cover that bill. If it comes down to it I'll scrimp on food, clothes, car use, whatever if I have to do to stay covered. If you are a Washington resident and your income is so low that you can't afford to pay the premimums, look into Washington Basic Health. It's something the state came up with for people in just that very situation. Here's a link to the Regence Blue Shield individual Coverage plans: http://www.wa.regence.com/needCoverage/individual/index.html Here's a link to the homepage for Washington Basic Health. http://www.wa.gov/hca/basichealth.htm Hopefully the information you find there will be helpful. [ 10-10-2002, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: JayB ]

Erden: I haven't been out there in a couple of years but I like what you are proposing as far as a memorial at the base of the climb is concerned. I also like the idea that some others have proposed concerning naming a new route in his memory. The Eve Dearborn Memorial Route comes to mind as an inspiring tribute to a fallen climber.

Just wanted to post another positive buyers report to recognize homies who follow through with the gear that they promise to send after you send a check their way and cross your fingers. This time the thumbs up goes to Big Wave Dave, who hooked me up with a dope AT set-up for a great price AND actually sent the stuff to me. Arrived yesterday in great shape. Thanks again, Dave.

Need a partner for Sunday. Eastside or Westside. Sport, Trad, Alpine - Whatever. Send a message my way if you want to get out.

Never used the Gi-Gi or the B-52 either but... I dig the reverso in a big way. Seems to do every job well and beats the hell out of the ATC+Gri-Gri combo I used to bring along when I wanted the same sort of functionality. For $21 you can't go wrong.

As far as routes to hit with your wife are concerned, just about every 14'er in the state has a walk up route on it (most have several). Gray's Peak, Torrey's Peak, Mount Bierstadt, and Mt. Evans have trailheads within an hour or an hour-and-a-half's drive from Denver/Boulder. Of the three Bierstadt is the mellowest, with most parties taking between 1.5 and 3.0 hours to reach the summit. Just make sure to make an allowance for the altitude...

Hey! I was gonna say that! The folks at Neptune Mountaineering in Boulder might have some useful information also. A few climbs worth doing... Green Spur, Yellow Spur, Green Slab Direct, Darkness 'Till Dawn...