DCramer

It's kinda loose Oly. My suggestions would be: Walk trails (Lower Lump, Inner Walls, Upper Wall and Lookout Point)and make repairs as needed. Blackberry abatement Trash patrols (even on the river side where people squat/camp) Bringing along some snips, loping sears and a hand saw would be useful. Parks has some hand tools for trail repair.

Hey Ben I am sure the moss will be waiting for you!

Just a reminder that the Index volunteer day is just a little over a week away. The majority of the Index crags are managed by Washington State Parks and due to the relatively undeveloped nature of the area it is easy to underestimate how much managing actually occurs. The Parks Department is a supporter of climbing at the Town Walls and has been working with several ongoing concerns including but not limited to rail road crossing issues, Upper Wall trundling and ORV activity . Toilet facilities are looking like a not too distant possibility. The volunteer day is an opportunity for climbers to show their appreciation to State Parks and demonstrate how much we value the park. WCC Link

The FA was by Greg Child and Greg Collum. I would have mentioned the fact that Greg Collum was the first to bolt this route except I thought it was common knowledge. He replaced several chopped bolts as well. I guess he viewed it as a work in progress longer than most people. I am not sure if he was invloved in the last placement of bolts; however, for what it's worth, I believe he approves of this configuration and feels that this configuration is a compromise between the fully bolted stage and no bolts. Although I have no problem posting on this board, I would not feel comfortable "outing" anyone who has chosen not to participate on CC.com. I just have a hard time getting worked up over the whole issue. After it was first chopped Greg called me up wondering if I had done the deed. I gave him my feedback and others gave him feedback as well. As it turns out he stopped his (Index) retro-bolting activity because of the negative feedback. This route keeps popping up for some reason. The FA was not in 1983.

If I remember correctly when I first led CS there were no bolts (or TCUs for that matter)– not even at the anchor. At the top of the arch section to the right and down slightly there was a small sapling growing out of a funky flake that was slung and rapped. Soon a bolt anchor was installed at the top of the arch.. Much better! Eventually a route was squeezed in to the left and CS was lengthened and fully bolted. The bolts came and went in a variety of configurations. I followed it a year or two ago and recall a fp near the bottom, a bolt near the flake/hole and then another bolt near the base of the arch. Above the arch there are two bolts and a bolted anchor. There were a bunch of bolts on the route just to the left. What’s changed? Just what is the spicy version(s)? The version I followed seemed fine to me. By the way I have seen people place cams in the flake/hole many times and wondered if in a long fall the rock would break. Has anyone seen a big fall there. Every other similar feature I am familiar with at Index that has been fallen on has broken. Just an FYI.

Link to events forum!

Link to WCC site.

Right on. I think every time I set out to aid climb at the LW it was it the rain. The time first time, about 30 years ago, was Narrow Arrow Overhang right var. I remember because I left my EB’s at the base and drove off to California without them. I was too poor to buy new ones so for a few months I used an old pair of wrestling shoes. A rainy bivi under the Golden Arch is marred only by the incredible wetness of the pitches below. P1 of Abraxas can be a waterfall in a full on storm.

There were 3 or 4 angles at the start. Can't you place a tcu while standing on the flake?

linky The Gynmjones thread reminded me of this spunky write-up by one of the GJ guys. I can remember climbing Sloe Children sans RPs and sans small cams and do no remember any runout. I fell at the cruz. I cannot for the life of me remember anyone suggesting the route was runout. Reality...it’s subjective.

I just saw Porter. A bit tired but in good spirits. He definitely appreciates all the good thoughts. He had a laptop nearby and I offered to spray for him if he would tell me his password but he had too much common sense to spill the beans!

The ultimate impact of this kind of regulation is very hard to predict. Currently the long range plan is to turn the Rieter Pit area into a ORV park. My own sense is that continued road access to the boulders and Zeke’s Wall itself might be dependent on continued ORV activity in the area. If ORV activity were to disappear, climbers may have to go back to long hikes up from the valley floor. Speaking from personal experience hiking from the floor wasn’t a popular thing to do. Maybe legislation like this will improve the chances of the Pit Park becoming reality.

Any suggestions as to where to buy a small bench and lat pull machine in Seattle?

Any suggestions as to where to buy a small bench and lat pull machine in Seattle?

I climbed at the crags in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s, maybe once or twice with that Cstemley guy. 25 years ago it was common to poach an illegal campsite at the crags and given the number of cases I have seen packed in laziness doesn’t seem applicable. I mention the camping because the only time a ranger ever did anything was when one safety pinned a note to a friends new tent fly while he was trying a mixed line up the central gully on Butt Rock in February I think in ‘78 or '79. I wasn’t there but I saw pictures. (Butt Rock has another name in the published guides but I can’t remember it) The crags are just out of the way and the rock wildly variable in quality. Even back in the 70s the ‘locals’ seemed to be just several small groups who rarely communicated. The Crags then equalled solitude. There were no Rps, bits sucked, overall standards were lower and sticky rubber didn’t exist. I bought my first bolt kit for use at the crags. The existing guidebooks are somewhat of a puzzle. Some very obvious routes were never shown. For example there are twoobvious pillars to the right of the Good Book that have some fun routes. The left pillar has a Yosemite like flare up its left side. From there several more pitches lead to the saddle. The Crags just like the North Coast are all about exploring and having fun just being there. Seems like its still pretty much the same.

Forget stars - Create a 1 thru 4 system with increments every .1! Think of a GPA. That route is a 3.2! No, it's a 3.3! To really be value added a guidebook must be fodder for debate! Seriously, in line with your viewpoint perhaps just a notation indicating that a specific route is recomended will suffice.

11. Lookout Point - Index

I am not very familiar with Camalots but are you sure #3 Camalots would work? (A does not equal B in the quote above) Let me know what you guys decide to do and let me suggest that all this energy could be put to great use reviving old routes, trail maintenance, fixed gear maintenance and impressing land managers with climber volunteerism.

I received an email about this thread so I decided I'd chime in. If I wasn't slammed at work I probably would have earlier. The true story behind GMD is that when we cleaned it (and it was a big job) big cams weren't really available. We bolted it so that people would have protection. If big cams are common now, I can care less what happens to the bolts. I can remember when you often came upon fixed bongs and large angles then after Friends, they became less common. Thin pins became less common after thin pro improved. One thing I can say is that with a rack of big cams GMD would in fact be an easier climb. The leader would be in complete control of the fall potential. That is not true with the East Monkee Face. Trotter gets the kudos because it was bold. One thing to consider is that once traffic dips below a certain floor the climb will be reclaimed by vegetation and cease to be climbable. By the way has anyone here ever climbed Black Widow at Midnight? The second pitch of City Park? Wasn't GMD put up about 18 years ago?

I am not so sure that I agree with the claims made above. Take for example the three items on the list. The third is strictly alleged. I am not convinced that it even occurred, however, if the bolts were placed, I am fairly certain that the FA party had nothing to do with them. The other two examples are not new at all - I believe that they happened in the 1990’s. (BCB may have been very early 2000’s) Virtually all of the cases I know where a member of a FA party retro-bolted a route have been the work of one person. For many years this person’s primary residence has been outside the US. I know of no retro-bolting activity by him over the last several years. I am fairly confident that the same person was responsible for the JG rap anchor but honestly cannot say for certain. I seem to remember him being worried that people were lowering off the old anchor which was certainly dangerous. Since this person’s activity has been non-existent for several years and since FA party retro–bolting activity was pretty much limited to him in the first place, I do not think that the claims (in bold) are reasonable. Simply put the trend as stated does not exist. Of the routes I have put up at Index I can remember retro bolting only one (Pins replaced by bolts) and it was not at the Lower Wall. Again I wonder why these anchors seem to attract attention when the bolts to the right at the start barely generate a comment.

If it's a fat man gathering I'll invite myself...besides I can hand off the big cams.

I must confess I cringed too when I first saw it but after seeing so many trip reports that listed JP p1 “short” as a climb I decided that it was probably a good thing. Back before larger cams were common starting up the flared flake/corner was fairly committing and the new bolt location reduced that commitment. Now you can just slip a cam in and there is no practical difference. This horse does seem to be dead!

Here is a copy of a topo from the 1975 Index guide. The topo is a bit inaccurate but I have marked “here” where the original "short" anchor is clearly shown. What the topo does not show is that there is a no hands stance at the anchor. The original anchor was a pin at your feet and a bolt about knee level. The new one is higher and to the left. This location is more visible. This is not a case of “moderate” climbers wanting to add an anchor to a “hard” climb. The question is should “moderate’ climbers loose a climb because an entire route was freed. Colt45 – I think you would be forced to reach the same conclusion a variety of crags. For example: the Cookie Cliff in Yosemite. Phil – Weak troll the anchors on NA Overhang haven’t moved as far back I can remember. Rudy -

Assuming that they used 120' ropes they could have reached the belay above the roof. I bet they were using 150'. In any event a review of some photos of the FA shows that the leader had a beefy haul/rap line tied to his harness. The bolts I mentioned are not on Stern Farmer but are located just to the right. They lead up to a horizontal break. Has this gone free?

So is it clear just what route the bolts are on? With regard to the Index Centerfold: Pitch one as first climbed began up an easy although often dirty groove/corner and then moved left passing three bolts. Sometime after the FA one of the FA team cleaned off a cleaner bolt protected variation to just to the left of the groove. Comparing bolt counts between early ascents of this pitch and later ascents only makes sense if you are comparing apples to apples. Unless a bunch of bolts have been added to the upper section of p1 it should be possible to recreate the 3 bolt experience by climbing up the groove. By the way a super fun (albeit with one really hard section) direct start has been TR’d.