DCramer

Gosolo - As the above quote demonstrates I do think tht there have been change in "Ethics" I also never suggested that you or JH didn't adhere to what you say you did believe in. What I say is a myth is that everyone behaved in some noble manner or that everyone even believed in the same thing you do/did. I provided examples supporting that position. Simple. I suspect that already and even back in the day there were those who practised a different sport also called "climbing". That is exactly the problem - "climbing" is really a variety of sports. I do not deny that you left the enviroment close to spotless; however, you must agree that others did not hold as close to your ideal as you did? Certainly lots of bolts were added to existing El Cap routes in the '70s. Fully 25% of the new routes in the South Platte had bolts or pins. (mostly bolts) While you held tight to your style others abandoned it readily. One of the guys who made the second clean ascent of the Nose became a rap bolter. He got back into climbing when rap bolting became more acceptable. Here is a guy who at one point was at the cutting edge of clean climbing becoming excited about being able ot rap bolt. One of those New Hamshire FA guys was excited as hell about climbing Endliss Bliss. (By the way this is a route I have no desire to do) Where these guys card carrying members of the 70s club or just passing through. And for the umpteenth time I have never said that someone should go and add bolts to any routes. I have never even said it is a goofy way to climb. Is the only reason someone would disagree with you because they are a wimp?

As I said in my first post.. I also said later I wasn't saying anything about "group responsibility" or bolting existing routes but merely arguing against what I thought was a poor argument infavor of effort to develop a better way of relating to each other. You are basically wanting the government come in and protect your preferences. I admit I am suspicious whenever anyone advocate that. Matt will verify once I was complaining to him about too many bolts at a local area and when I felt he was saying that we needed a group to make those decisions my reply was that I would rather every one of my routes be bolted to death.

Hmm now just who is being political…. First it seems as fairly straight forward that hangdogging, preinspection, pre-protecting bolts are not really features of “clean” climbing. All were ridiculed in the ‘60s and perhaps earlier. I would note that the first 5.10 in the Valley had a rap placed bolt. It seems we all have ended up agreeing that “clean climbing” (me for the sake of argument)in the ‘70s meant using pins and bolts as a last resort. Matt and I noted that that is what people are doing now. From that position calling “clean climbing” in the 70’s as something distinct from the 05’s seems to be an incorrect assessment. I would note that while the results may differ the climbing ethic remains the same regardless of the boldness or timidness of the climber making the decisions. The problem isn’t so much the ethic changed as much as more climbers are free to be wimps now. You frankly have not created a good counter argument to this. In the broader context of hanging preinspection, pre-protecting…if the leading lights of rock climbing bend the rules when they see fit why can’t the grubby masses? Is it so hard to understand that basic concept? By the way just to clarify I am not arguing that climbing ethics are the same today as they were in the 70s. I do think that the ethics in the 70s were vastly different than the way you present then. And by the way you are presenting them for express political purposes here in this thread. I leave it to any interested readers to go to the Mountainers library and read the Mountain magazines of the day, read the Climbing mags and decide for themselves just how unified climbers were around ethics.

That is not what I am saying Bill. What I am saying is that we all have different values and goals related to climbing. We as climbers need to develop a system for gettign along that actually works. Or at least one that isn't based on a "my dick is bigger than yours" approach. Something better than a "Locals Only" philosophy. The way JH has become the subject of the thread evidence of a poor system of thought. Personalizing these discussions seems simply a way to avoid talking about the real issues.

On my first ever lead I placed a Crack-n-Up.[edit]ok now I remember it was somethign else so ignore this first sentence - getting old is tough[end edit] Once while aid climbing on a seaside cliff (with only clean gear if you can imagine)I had to lead to the top on my haul line via a 30' runout and my last piece was a crack-n-up. In the right conditions (basalt in this case) they worked ok. Of course then I was young and wanted different things out of climbing. I wouldn't say that those goals were better or worse than today. Just different.

Matt I couldn't agree more. Perhaps the biggest problem with the whole (I believe mythical) "70's Ethos" is that in practice it becomes nothign more than a self-serving method of controling others whose actions you might not like. As with most controling myths it cannot be rationally argued. It gives those judging others a platform to feel superior and a justification of appealing to a greater authority. The myth contains the seeds of its own destruction.

It is indeed very sad to hear of John's passing. We went on a couple of trips to Squamish with the same group and I remember them fondly; however, whenever I think of John I do not think of those trips but rather an interaction I had with him before we ever met. It was in the early 80s and I had spent the day climbing at Index. I was living with my parents and upon arriving home the first thing my mother said to me was "Did you leave your pack at Index?" It then hit me that I did. "How did you know?" Mother replied: "Well a friend of yours, John Stoddard, called and said he had your pack" Me: "John Stoddard?" Mother: "Well he dropped it off." And there was my brown pack loaded with my gear. To this day I find it incomprehensible how he beat me home. He noticed an unattended pack foud out whose it was and returned it all before the loss was noticed! Best regards & condolences, Darryl

JH - I can distinctly remember the "if you can't do it without a bolt wait for the better man" argument. Another one was along the lines of "the real clean climbers will approach a big wall with only clean gear no hammers." This strict clean approach was advocated by many. The way I see your approach is that it becomes meaningless => "I climb clean unless I need pins or bolts." This is pretty much what we have today. The problem is that each climber is left to make the decision as to whether a pin or bolt is needed. Arguments between climbers just turn into some form of the statement "you're a pussy" tempered by the occasional "I made an erorr in judgement." Read Matt_M's post earlier in this thread he seemed to clearly be hearing a voice saying "all you pussies." I would like to believe that there is less judgemental approach available to help climbers get along better not only with other climbers but also land manager's and other users. Banks Lake is pretty cool I have never climbed any of the boat stuff and climbed solely on the shore across from the park. If I can find it, I'll post a scan of the rock and a crag. From your description you are certainly thinking of another Cramer.

In some cases they were improvements. For example on NLC there was a KB protecting a 5.10 move. If it pulled you would have quite possibly hit the deck from 40’ up. When the KB was new it was bomber, but how long was it new? No one asked permission for this, but why bother asking; it seems the safe thing to do. With regard to replacing a critical pin with a bolt I don’t think that my permission matters. If I was to say no, I should be ignored. The first bolt on the route was placed on lead and consequently was not in the best position. I think someone may have asked about changing it, but can’t remember if it was before or after. A few bolts were added near the top replacing some pins not sure what I think of that because I can hardly remember what it’s like up there. It was done before the days of small TCUs. In other cases am not sure that the additions were improvements. For example , one route had bolts added to a section we climbed clean and was once called “the best new route” at Index (post bolting.) Anyway once a friend asked what I was frustrated about and I said I wasn’t sure. To my knowledge not one climber ever climbed it when a tied off pin (not fixed) protected the crux. Now it has had a bunch of ascents – in short I am somewhat conflicted over this one, but leaning towards the “its cool people are doing the route” side. Changing gears slightly I was completely against the bolt(s) added to JG/10% but everyone seems to like them. I have read a bunch of TRs saying they climbed the first pitch of JG. This was never the top of a pitch. Clint added the p1 short notation in his guide despite my objections. The anchor was an old bolt to protect a wide section and a pin several feet below. It is now two chains. On a crowded day I am guessing that the bolts are well used and probably a good addition. I have never been a big sport climber, the last 5 pitches I have cleaned at Index have had 3 bolts placed. I think the bolted crack argument is for the most part pretty weak. I guess if Numbah 10, a bad example in my opinion, is the poster route, things can’t be so bad considering Max bolted it almost 20 years ago! New Crags as express developments for the masses are something JH and I do agree on. At the initial WCC meeting I voiced my opinion on how these were bad for climbing. Not every area needs to be extensively developed. Part of the tradeoff I am willing to make is that some areas like Index have some chains I am not fond of while others are left less developed. Several years ago I was climbing at Banks Lake (early 90s) and we had a bolt gun and plenty of bolts. We approached the area on foot and in the heat and with all the prickers and scrambling we kept joking about being in Africa. When it came down to actually bolting a route we decided to just do TRs (one was multi-pitch) and leave our Africa undeveloped. The trade-off philosophy in action I guess. Matt - as far as your rising tide at Index the last ten years has been pretty quiet. The last explosion of bolting was by a climber who was retro-bolting his own routes and was in no way a product of the gym enviroment.

Well actually ChucK the reason I responded to this thread does indeed have something to do with the initial post. The other day I came to the realization that virtually every route I did in the “trad” style at Index has seen additional bolts placed. Take for example Clay, p1 of NA Overhang or Natural Log Cabin. (Well to be honest I am pretty sure I placed the second bolt non trad style on NLC)

JH you misrepresent my position. Read my post two up. You will see very clearly that you are incorrect. here I copied a pertinent part: Now how can you reasonably interperet the post that this is taken from as saying that there was no baseline clean ethic? I have always said that the world is a Rainbow. Then and now. I also said that that baseline clean ethic exist for the most part today. here is another quote from two posts above. Odd because I didn't mention routes, I mentioned areas. (ie South Platte. Meadows) I would simply ask someone to scan a Meadows guide, a Valley Guide, a Suicide guide and note how those route put up in the '70s used pins or bolts.

As far as clean climbing, a couple items may be lost in the fog. In general clean climbing pro is easier to place than pins! (I’m talking ’70 gear) Perfect example: Butterfingers. Clean gear is often stronger than a pin! I’d much rather have well placed hex than a well placed 3” bong. In the late 70’s when Friends came out things got a whole lot easier. Look clean climbing up protectable cracks became the norm in the 70’s. Today it still is the norm. I believe it would have become the norm even without the ethics question. In many cases it is simply the superior technology. You claim that I bring up odd exceptions but frankly I cannot consider your response reasonable. You are clearly saying that it was the norm that people chose not to do FA if they would require a pin or bolt. I point out the Desert, South Platte, the entire state of Califronia and you call it the exception - a very small percentage of the climbing (fas) going on. Are you really serious?

So "no pins" was standard in the Desert? No bolted routes were put up on the South Platte? To be clear I am talkin FAs.

I completely disagree. The idea that a ground up, no hang dog ascent is best is one thing, but to claim that people didn't hang is simply wrong. To claim that they didn’t use pins is also goofy. For example, Robbins put a route up at the Leap, Incubus, he used pins. This in the '70s. In a sense I am not sure what you are saying. That most people climbing stopped bringing a hammer along? That is certainly true. But that is not to say that those putting up new routes abandoned using pins or bolts. Look at the number of ground up routes put up in Yosemite, the Meadows, Suicide and J Tree in the ‘70s using bolts. There were hundreds. To say that all these routes were outside the norm is unsupportable. What you seem to be saying is something like saying that the prevailig ethic of those who climb at Exit 38 is not to bring a hammer. True but since these guys are climbing existing routes - big deal. This would have been true in the 60s quite probably as well if one was climbing a fully bolted route. My comments shouldn't be taken as being for or against retro bolting or any other ethical issue. I am merely trying to make a point about the "good old days."

OK I am on a roll. Consider the slab with the route Bolt Run at Donner Pass. Closely spaced several routes squeezed in. Seems like a sport route crag to me. Except the routes were made in the ‘70s. Think people only now started flocking to routes with give away ratings? Think of Maxine’s Wall (How many do more than the first pitch?) What about Peruvian Flake?

One more example: Jim Erickson developed an incredible theory of route tainting in while climbing around Boulder. He completely abandoned this system and became a dogger while trying to free Half Dome.

Did this thread die? This has been one of the better CC.com threads on this subject and although shy and retiring by nature I feel the need to spray contribute to it. Two things have really changed in climbing: 1) the number of climbers has increased greatly and 2) people have become more honest over the years. The stories presented here describing climbing in the ‘70s seem to be describing another world than the one I experienced. Chipping, pre-inspection, dogging, rap bolting all took place in the ‘70s. It was in no way the golden age of the “Zen Master”. Rather than rely on my admittedly faulty memory I will give some specific and verifiable examples along with a personal recollection or two. In ‘77 Tom Higgins wrote an article for Mountain Magazine which was published in the spring of ’78. I have a fondness for this issue because of Higgins’ article – it was the first guide I used in the Meadows. One of the main subjects of the article is ethics. He considers four practices he disliked: a) pre-protecting b) previewing/practicing c) doctoring (primarily chipping) and d) seiging (fixed ropes, dogging and pulling on rope to high point). Here is a direct quote from the article: The articled included a chart of selected Meadows routes with a notation on style. Vern Cleavenger, Dale Bard, Rick Accomazo, Bruce Morris, R Breedove, Jim Bridwell to name some of the big names all preprotected routes. Most rehearsed and seiged certain routes as well. Many routes had bolt ladders place with the intent to free them latter. Both Death Crack and Blues Riff were preprotected. The climbers in this list are all pretty much superstars and have climbed tremendous routes often in a very bold style. My friend Greg and I still talk about when we get good that we want to try some of Accomazo’s So Cal routes. Down in the Valley itself Wheat Thin was preprotected with rap placed bolts and Elephant’s Eliminate had a bong placed on rappel. Geek Towers and Outer Limits were both chipped. I grew up in the Bay Area and Jim Collins was going to school at Stanford. I remember seeing him boulder a bit. His climbing style certainly was not against falling and trying again. Neither was Tony Yaniro’s. Both developed very intense gym routines years before commercial gyms were around. Both were ridiculed by the existing elites when they first burst on the scene. I almost forgot Hudon (former cc.com poster) and Jones. They wrote an entire series of articles on their hangdogging experiences. Due to limitations in equipment hangdogging was often nearly impossible. Jardine with the help of Friends made it an art form. But in the days of hexes you simply couldn’t hang anywhere you wanted. I have chickened out from several wide cracks that I would have aided if I could have. One reason people progressed more slowly thru the grades was that they often had to go for it and if they calculated wrong the consequences could be terrible. I am remembering a harrowing experience on Peter Left (base of El Cap) right now. I am sure cams have changed this route dramatically. Indian Creek was distinctly different without cams. One of my first multi-pitch routes was a 5.6 on the East Wall at Lover’s Leap. I can remember quite clearly watching the only other parties at the cliff that day. One was on The Line (5.9) the other on Eyore’s Ecstasy (5.9+) both took repeated falls and were hang dogging. The 1975 guide to the Leap included a short “sermon” by Royal Robbins. In it he expressed a desire that the Leap remain bolt free. The locals of the time were really into free soloing and supported the “bold way”. Oddly a series of bolts appeared. No one knew who placed them but it was known that the offending party couldn’t free the line. Of course the locals could! Higgins relates a similar story in his Meadows article. The 70’s simply were not as presented earlier in this thread. The real world is complex; more of a rainbow than a single color. Any problems with modern climbing do not need to be addressed by some reference to the past and certainly not to an inaccurate presentation of the past. That said in some way we are all creatures of our youth. Last time I climbed at the Leap I was saddened to see the number of bolt lines that now existed. The same goes for the Cookie cliff in Yosemite.

Can anyone comment regarding how the "thrown object" hazard is this year compared to prior years?

I wonder what made you think of this? Maybe it's already been found...

I believe that a number of people have climbed there over the years. I climbed there a bit in the 80s. This was before Bryan’s guide and we just assumed after finding a few bolts that others had been there before us. Bryan certainly wasn’t active there at the time. The rock is highly variable ranging from solid to kitty litter. Many of the ledges are flat out impossible to be on without dropping a lot of stones. From the left shoulder if you walk (North?) along the base Bryan put up a couple good routes – well a route and variation. I believe these were started and abandoned by some earlier climbers. The rock is not so bad although time may have loosened some holds. There are some fun Washington hueco holds and the routes are pretty steep. Hard to remember how hard; I am thinking solid 5.10. I remember these routes as the best I climbed in the area. The area is pretty popular with hikers. I’d be pretty low key if I was new routing. That said I am sure some nice climbs could be found.

Go chop them all! With regard to pins vs. bolts, over time I have come to the conclusion that it is often best to use a bolt over a pin. One reason is constant theft. For example, Bat Skins one of the best stemming problems in the state is no longer protected because someone stole the knifeblades. The second is pins age very quickly at Index. I have pulled many pins out with my hand at Index -pins that I have placed and considered bomber at the time I placed them. The bottom of Deal has a bolt that was not on the FA (which was ground up by the way) there is a 5.10 move which if you fell and the pin pulled you'd hit the deck. I haven’t climbed this route since the pin was turned into a bolt but I think that a bolt is preferred. With regard to the route you mention there is a further complication: I am not sure that “former pin crack” is the proper term. Beckey’s guide was filled with significant errors and I wouldn’t be surprised if it was never climbed until now. Adding fixed gear to old aid climbs at Index has been done since the late 70s. So it is undeniably an Index tradition. This has been primarily with dirty unpopular routes. Non-dirty aid routes were usually left without adding gear. I added bolts to two aid climbs. One was not to free it but rather to protect the rock from further damage. (Dana’s Arch) Definitely not successful there. The other was I added a few bolts to the Shield pitch on 10%. In the late 80s I tried leading the Diamond and figured with a bolt or two it would easily go (and be a great climb) but frankly wasn’t into adding bolts. Some others worked on trying to free some other aid routes and there was a bit of discussion about what was acceptable. (eg the bolts on Zipper roof) Consensus seemed to be that at some point the big aid routes should be left alone. This was mostly because some were willing to enhance the rock. The way I see it two of the greatest free projects in WA are the initial section of 10% and the Waterway route. It would be a shame to see these bolted into sport routes. By the way I replaced all the bolts on the Waterway with 12mm stainless last year. I forgot my fork so most of the bolts remain. (Lazy?) In some cases there were 6 bolts per anchor. The Lower Wall has always had a bunch of short pitches with bolt anchors (ie Iron Horse, 10%, JG, Misc aid routes, Narrow Arrow) there is nothing new about this. I think it is the result of the cliffs history as an aid training crag. What is new is that some new fixed pieces have been appearing. Virtually every route I was involved with using the ground up method at Index has had new fixed pieces appear. This is not true of routes that have been cleaned top down. Index has a wide variety of routes - most people climb the same old shit. Get out explore. Even exploring the Lower Wall would yield a bunch of great routes.

Is this really abandoned? If so, it seems like these bolts (2?) are far more of an eyesore than an extra anchor added 40m up the wall.

Under that pile of tat is a great free route. It was originally lead free with a fp above where the tat is now. This pin has been stolen. Subsequently another person came and added some bolts (where the tat is now) and claimed the FFA to that point. I have often thought of going back and cleaning it up. One of the finest leads on the Lower Wall. If you clean it up make sure it's set up for free climbing. [edit]If I understand/remember correctly the new variation is not a squeeze job. I thought about doing it before and once hanging out with Jim Yoder he pointed it out without my prompting. A direct start to Tadpole has several advantages 1) it might encourage people to climb it 2) enables people to approach easily without having to rap or do the traverse which has the potential for dropped rocks. [edit 2]Soul Reaper are you an Opeth fan?

I would review your source again...

I can remember when we could clean all day at the Lower wall and never see another climber - this on a sunny weekend. Times have changed. The number of climbers has increased to where it is impossible not to impact other through our very presence, but if not mid-week then when? Is a day when you can't climb a route because someone is cleaning really that bad? For the last 15 years or so I have pretty much stopped climbing much at the Lower Wall because there were too many people for my taste. Still I was excited a couple years ago when I noticed that the third pitch of City Park was cleaned. I kept expecting someone to report it here but amazingly no one even noticed it - or if they did they remained silent. Cleaning such a large amount of dirt in the winter would have had a much more deleterious impact on the surrounding routes. I do not know the specifics of this incident but it sounds like winter would have been the absolutely worst time for this activity. Maybe now isn’t the right time either, but the alternative suggested in this thread is better only in theory.