DCramer

I use to know him when he lived in Seattle. Never spent much time with him as we have very different interests in climbing. He always seemed ok in person maybe a bit over the top with enthusiasm and self-promotion but I wouldn’t hesitate in going out for a beer with him. I went climbing with his wife once and she seemed like a great person so he can’t be all goofy.

I think that there should be a replacement effort for the vandalized routes at Vantage. If the routes were vandalized by someone trying to make some sort of philosophical statement, it is especially important that an effort at restoration be made. If bad behavior always wins out, the stage is set for worse behavior in the future. That said perhaps now would be a good time to think about what routes should be restored as lead climbs and which routes should be TRs and which routes should be left fallow. I am currently starting a remodel job on my house and in moving stuff around I came across an old box of pictures. In it were some pics from the early and mid eighties taken at Vantage. I will try to post a couple to this thread over the weekend. Trying to reconcile the difference between Vantage then and now I would say that the trails along the base have a far greater impact than all the bolts. Of course all the people on a sunny spring weekend are an even bigger impact. Up until the late 80s every day I spent at Vantage my party was the only one there. Part of me thinks that perhaps the “vandal” is perhaps acting out of a reaction to the sheer popularity of the place. The popularity problem is a thorny problem. Things like staying on trails, controlling pets, picking up litter, smiling can all have an impact. Using camouflaged hangers, camouflaged chains instead of webbing can help as well. Darryl

I wouldn’t put too much stock in Clint’s map. Recently there has been some development in the area. The road is unfortunately gated but it has been regraded and ends near the boulders. The boulder field itself is quite expansive and I have been unable to find some boulders a second time. Remember it is western WA so moss will grow and rain will fall. Rumor has it some people have been cited for trespassing in the area so be careful if you go there. Land ownership is somewhat chaotic maybe someone will take up the challenge and go visit the county and get some info. This is one area that does have much potential. There is another bouldering spot. (ok but not great) near the river west of the Town Walls. Banks Lake has a lot of granite and after having been called a reprobate bolter I have to stake the claim as putting up (10 or so years ago) the first multi-pitch intentional top rope route in Washington at Banks Lake. We even had a gas powered roto-hammer and a shit load of hardware. We just thought what the hell this is a fun route as a top rope.

Sehome does have some good problems especially one I think its rated V6 in the Henrie guide. This is a standout problem. The boulders below the Zeke’s Wall (granite) have the potential to be one of the best bouldering spots in WA. Some of the boulders are as big as houses. Currently access may be a bit difficult. If this area becomes developed the boulders would be far better than those in Leavenworth. In the Tieton there are some problems near the river by the parking lot for the Cave Wall.

Got the directions from Mike but didn't make it out there yet. :-( Seems that kids and grad school are more of an impediment to climbing than marriage.

Dru - I agree about jumping out on the lead thats why I suggested that leading on TR can be very instructive. The factors I mentioned and your racking idea can all be experienced safely while on TR. Of course as soon as you shed the TR things will be a bit different. I think the best way would be to try to incorporate many of these ideas into a training plan. I have got to get some work done.

Well there are many ways to skin a cat. I would just caution that bouncing around on pieces near the ground does not guarantee that you know how to place good pieces on lead. The fear factor is only one small aspect of traditional leading. Another aspect is strategic placement of pieces to minimize drag, outward pulls on pro or simply to reduce the size of your rack. Unfortunately this pretty much has to be learned (and relearned?) by direct experience. Buy, bring and use plenty of full length runners. Also consider the difference between the strength of a piece and how secure it is. A piece may be wonderful as long as the pull direction is in one direction but worthless if the pull is in another direction. Many times a “good” piece can be dislodged by the pull of the rope. Try all these ideas and remember that the one consistent point of agreement is that you should start off with routes easier than you could TR or Sport lead.

Good point to consider. It can also let people know, esp. gym hounds, how much easier things are to TR than lead without regard to the fear factor.

Another thing to try would be to try placing pro while top roping. That is simulate a true lead. Finding the right piece on your rack, finding the right place on the rock to place pro, and placing a piece all take on a different feel while actually free climbing.(as opposed to fiddling around on the ground or on aid) I would also suggest not being shy about placing alot of pieces.

Trask – The SLM’s summit is well worth the fight. Go back next week and try again. The summit register is a hoot to read. Pope, Dru et al – My mention of the maint. group meeting was merely to provide a concrete example of people who quite probably would contribute here but choose not to because of some of the attitudes often expressed here. Spray is not all bad but I do think that “one bad apple” does give the whole genre of expression a bad name. I do not think that a significant portion of Cascade Climbers will ever be consistent posters here. This is probably a good thing. I do think that increasing the pool of posters from 20 to 100 would be of great benefit to the site and to Cascade climbing in general.

You're right Jon and Tim have done a great job in designing this site.

Dru - I am not against spray per se but also realize that a small percentage of the spray repells a significant portion of the climbing community. It is simply a fact. That many come to this site by accident is interesting yet hardly of relevence to my post. BB's like this have user groups. One common problem that seems to plague all BB users is extreme forms of spray. It is not something unique to climbers but rather something unique to people. One point of clarification. I feel bad that some might think that if you didn't respond to my post about a crag maint. meeting I think that you have nothing to offer. I brought that meeting up because this site was specifically discussed and spray was mentioned by all participants. The factr that someone might post a message criticalof the site not because CC.com sucks but because it is kinda cool and could be cooler seems to elude everyone here. [ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: DCramer ]

Caveman I did not intend to suggest that you had nothing to offer. My point was that everyone had something to offer and that the synergy resulting from lots of people posting would be amazing. I also didn't relaize I was saying anything bad about Will. I was agreeing that those posting here can and do offer good info.

Not even a slice of the Cascade Climbing Community. This site is a few small crumbs. If enough people started posting to create an entire slice, this site would be AMAZING. Several weeks ago I helped organize a small meeting regarding crag maintenance. About half the people who came were from CC.com. None of the extreme posters expressed any interest in attending. One of those attending was Jon, CC.com's co-founder. I was surprised how everyone including some of those who regularly posted were either extremely negative about this site or thought that the spray often had a deleterious impact. I felt bad for Jon as the meeting was not organized to bash CC.com. I ENCOURAGED those who refused to post to start posting. To date none have. These are guys who climb all the time and are willing to invest their time into the "community.” (Off subject but I have to add that as a direct result of that meeting, different groups have gone out and trimmed trails, replaced old bolts and researched land ownership issues.) By listing all the accomplishments of the various regulars Will indirectly suggests how much this site is missing! If more could be inspired to participate the beta available would be amazing. Wouldn't it be great to post a request for beta on the full ridge on Bear and have someone send you a topo in reply? I think so. This doesn’t mean that spray is always bad. Some of it is good-natured fun. Some posts offer humorous reading. Some is misconstrued as being more mean spirited than is intended by the posters. Some however is just plain rude. Most people I talk to won't post here not because they have a snooty attitude, but because of the offensive attitudes expressed on this site. These are climbers of all abilities and ranges of experience. Mattp is right on the money. A rank beginner telling me about a washed out road is just as useful as and old pro doing so. Sometime ago Dana's Arch was listed as a subject. I sent one person who posted to the thread a PM which turned into a short series of exchanges. In his first reply he said he said he understood why I was reluctant to enter into an online debate. Just an example of how this site falls short of its promise. This site’s swinging; real rockin’ can’t be too far away.

Not sure what Clint was refering to but here is an old picture of the area I was thinking of. Lots of overhanging cracks. [ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: DCramer ] [ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: DCramer ]

I'd agree with most of the advice given previously here. There are several areas at Index which have the potential to be good aid practice areas that are off the beaten track. One place would be the area between the Wart and the Sentry Box at the Lower Lump. This area is steep, has a bit of loose rock and I wouldn't be surprised if a few pins wouldn't come in handy.

After the first few posts I didn't get a chance to see the Rock Police thread before it bit the dust. Thats probably a good thing. Now I proclaim my innocence! Rest assured my dream team is hard at work as we speak fomrulating a comprehensive and incontrovertible reply. Those wishing to contribute to my defense fund email for banking details. Darryl

Received some PMs but forgot to ask that you let me know what part of the state you are located in. Thanks

Hale's Brewery was the site of the first meeting to result from the craig maint. thread of some weeks ago. Climbers interested in exploring ways to work together and improve the climbing enviroment came from as far away as Wenatchee. Topics ranged from trail maintenance, trash collecting, fund raising, interacting with government agencies,increasing climber involvement to the utilization of the internet. Beer drinking and burger eating was somehow squeezed in as well. We need your help saving the world. If you want to get involved send me a PM.

As the bolter of Dana's Arch I can say that direct conversation between people on this site is possible. Thru an exchange of friendly PMs with W, why do I think this isn't possible openly on this site?[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: DCramer ] [ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: DCramer ]

Charlie check your PMs

When I could do a one arm I am not sure how many regular pull ups I could do. I am sure that it is less than the number of pull ups I could do when I was trying to do lots of those. The most effective training for one arms is not regular pull ups. One arms are evil!

Lots of good tips on training in this thread. I think the best workout is the one that keeps you coming back for more. If it's not fun I won't do it. If I don't do it they don't work. I find that when I worked out I would tend to cycle thru different regimens. Not driven by some workout theory but rather boredom. One arm pulls are something of a trick that from my experience have very little impact on climbing and have a high probability of causing injury. Training for levers also can be injurious. If you are seriously training for these guys I would also add in some general shoulder type stuff as well and go slow!

Driving to work today I was debating whether I should phone or email Matt (Perkins) to encourage him not to bring this matter up on this website. For whatever reason most discussions here dissolve into “bitchfests” complete with gratuitous insults. They move off course and absent the immediacy of a face to face encounter there are few controls to correct a misstatement or a misinterpretation, so they remain that way. Then I decided I should go ahead and risk a post here. Several friends and myself wrote a pamphlet that successfully raised funds for amongst other things “crag maintenance.’ Additional contributions from several manufacturers and local retailers have enabled us to leverage these funds. Contributions have been made to bolt replacement efforts at Darrington, Index, and Squamish. Funds were also donated to help create rap stations at Vantage. These rap stations were placed in an effort to reduce erosion after discussion with the DOW. An offer was made to one of the main developers of Si/38 so that the funky “chain hangers” could be replaced. Our modus operandi has been to act as a clearing house of funds/equipment and let active locals take charge with the general assumption that bolts are to used as replacements only. Several posters here have been participating in this activity. Funds have also been used to buy refreshments at several cleaning projects. Additionally several other issues have been addressed. Our original goal was to try to expand outside our original group and try to get a broad group of “Cascade Climbers” involved. Unfortunately we have been slow in doing this and as a result have not been nearly as effective as if we had. It should be relatively easy to create a positive relationship with land managers, other recreational users and fellow climbers. Some but certainly not all relationships need to be coordinated with land managers but these relationships will also remove the need for many controls. Boulder is a sad example of control resulting from climbers unable to act responsibly. It wasn’t too long ago that fist fights were taking place and cars were being wrecked over bolting issues in Eldorado Canyon. The debates on this site inspire the same level of confrontation. If the same energy was devoted to eliminating the Forest Service Parking Fee program, I bet it would be gone. The synergy from a friendly group of collaborators could be remarkable. Let’s get together and talk about issues, concerns, and opportunities. I’d be happy to buy pizza or a pitcher or two. If you’re interested send me a PM. Darryl