DCramer

I agree completely with the "increase access" comment. That is exactly what I tried to suggest with my earlier comment regarding making ORV activity even more legitimate. The Walker Boulders ORV is extensive and quite developed. The process for creating an official ORV site at/near the Reiter Pit is already in motion. It seems like right now might be the time for climber input into the process. One challenge the Town Walls face is an amazing patchwork of different landowners. This one of the reasons that I did not mention increasing access at the Town Walls. (See example below) The railroad tracks are a significant impediment to any potential development. Burlington Northern has made its concerns known to the Parks Department and without a proper crossing increased traffic could lead to trouble. (The Index Sportsman’s Club property is suffering from a significant level of pollution and does not appear to be part of a near term solution either.) I do not think that simply closing a road will significantly reduce the problem at the top of the Upper Wall. The entire area above the UW is a braid of trails and new routes to the Upper Wall will soon be found. The main approach road has been closed twice that I can remember - once unofficially when the bridge broke and a second time when the road was blocked in an official manner. Both times I did not notice a reduction in the number of people accessing the Upper Wall from the back. ORV traffic has increased many fold since then but the number of ORV types shooting weapons has plummeted. Blocking the road might simply keep the “good” guys away and these are the very people we need to help control the situation. There is no quick fix the key to improving the situation is continued engagement with and by all parties involved. A group of climbers have been involved with the Town Walls. In the 80s climbers were involved with keeping access open when the DNR leased land to the Robbins Company for their tunneling equipment. Several years later climbers were active when the DNR gave control of much of the Town Wall to the State Parks. Over the years various climbers have organized clean-ups and anchor replacement drives. Monies were reserved for the potential purchase of the Lower Wall. Unfortunately this has suffered a setback recently and has been place on the back burner by the Parks Dept. Last summer the lead Ranger at Wallace Falls park brought up an idea of how toilet facilities could be placed near the Lower Wall parking lot. That toilets were brought up at all is evidence that State Parks does have an interest in the Town Walls. Several years ago due to issues with railroad crossing and other land ownership issues the Park Dept was forced to turn down an offer by climbers to help finance porta potties. Many of the people involved then are still involved and are active in the WCC. The Parks Department personnel at Wallace Falls have been incredibly friendly and supportive of climbers. Last year a week or so after the “official” clean-up day Parks staff returned to the Upper Wall trail with chainsaws and spent several hours cutting blocking trees on their own. They also spent several days clearing brush along the railroad tracks so that climbers would be enticed to walk further from the RR tacks in order to minimize any possible train/climber interaction. (Example: if the parking lot for the Lower Wall is overflowing a climber can easily park on land owned by the Forest Service or along county controlled road, then walk across the parking lot and RR tracks that are controlled by Burlington Northern, skirt the base of the Lower Wall which is private property, walk to the Upper Wall over what is mostly State Parks land but around the left side might cross onto another chunk of private land for a time only to come close to or on DNR land before crossing back over to State Parks land. I should add that some little known areas require crossing land under power lines. I am not sure who controls that land)

ORV activity is certainly legal on the DNR land but the huge increase in the numbers of people at the pit have created a situation that demands a change in regulation. From discussions with officials last summer it appeared as though a change of some sort was coming to the Pit. Your probably right about the clear cut land being private ownership. Maybe there is an opportunity for climbers and ORV types to work together to secure the land as part of the State Parks. Last time I was on the road leading to Isabel I was passed by a train of 11 4x4s!

I think the "best" solution would be to turn the Pit into an official area similar to the area around the Walker Boulders. There is no real way that the area above the Upper Wall can ever be completely closed. Truly there are very few places ORV's can legitimately go and do their thing. An official area would be easier to police and the ORV community would have a vested interest in policing it. The Upper Town Wall has been a topic of discussion on ORV boards before with little impact. Can the well behaved 99% reasonably be expected to control that 1%? Maybe as part of the deal a nice motor free trail to Lake Isabel could be created! Or maybe the roads to the top of the Zekes clear-cut could be maintained so that access is preserved. ORV cutting corners are destroying the roads. I remember hiking to Zeke’s from the the creek - it took all the fun out of it. The sheer number of people involved at the Reiter Pit has created a situation that the DNR must address even without the Index Town Walls. The place is like a small city on the weekends. A very large number of people camp there.

As far as the Stihl...the State Parks guys did put some logs across the road. Digging a ditch or a mound to stop vehicles/motorcycles is equally ineffective. The bypass around the old bridge is evidence enough of that. I am sure that 99% of the ORV guys are not causing any problems. As always it is the minority 1% causing the majority of the problems. The ORV types are organized. Last year the Index work party organized by the WCC was scheduled on the same day as the ORV Reiter Pit clean-up. The number of participants at the Town Walls was a mere fraction of those that showed up to work at the Pit. If the road was officially closed would only the 99% that do not cause problems follow the law? Who knows?

I am not sure that the second signs have been ripped out. I haven’t been to the top of the Upper Wall since early last summer. The plan was to place them along the road approach to the Upper Wall. The Parks Department also tried to close off (barricade) the road leading to the top of the wall. I think I made a couple of posts here on cc.com and several other sites referencing the signs and asking for feedback. The feedback I received seems to indicate that overall object throwing has been reduced. Of course all it takes is one rock/beer bottle/tree to kill someone. Years ago I witnessed a small tree being shot until it broke and then it was thrown off the cliff. Toilets have been hauled to the top and thrown off. The problem goes beyond just placing signs, but I am not sure just where the solution lies.

I believe the new signs were in place as of last July. I have not seen them in place but did see them in the State Parks paint shop before they were installed.

In conjunction with the WCC the Parks Department has placed signs at the top of the Upper Wall. In fact several rounds of sign placement have taken place. The first signs made their way to the bottom of the Upper Wall within a week. I am not sure if the second round has survived the winter. Additionally, efforts were made by the Parks Department to notify ORV groups and the subject was a discussion topic on ORV websites. Rockfall has been a problem for sometime. The area of greatest area of danger is right below the route Tempitchuous. The WCC website is Washingtonclimbers.org. I invite your participation on its discussion board as well as here. Here is a link to the existing WCC topic: Signs

Bruce - Doesn't Wilman's go for three pitches to the top of the wall? Years ago my friends and I thought Wilman's was the face crack with the obvious slings at a hanging belay. So when we started climbing to the right we thought we were putting up a new (albiet obvious) route up a left facing corner system until we found slings around a bush 30' (bush now gone) feet up and some more slings at about the 75' level atop a killer .11a corner. From then on out(2 pitches)we saw no evidence of anyone being on the route before, however, we concluded that we were really climbing Wilman's. Any ideas? In any case the face crack (called the Incision for several guides) has a free section at the bottom that is becoming very mossy - not so fun unless dry and what we ended up calling Wilman's would have a few wet sections as well. Confused.

I wrote: So to clarify for those not know the route. After the first 10-15’ Dwarf Tossing (DT) joins All Purpose Duck (APD) and Snow White (SW). After 25’ or so APD veers right, DT/SW continues up (what else) SW. So in a pitch ending at the first ledge of SW we have 15' of new climbing. After that the route is same as the old Snow White. We freed APD thus my comment bolded above. We only claimed a first free ascent not the first ascent. We gave it the name APD because it had no name. I never claimed to have freed all of Snow White. Had I would have claimed the FFA not the FA. I will admit to failing on TR trying to free SW after doing APD and never returning. The title of the thread I linked to is:”Adding a bolt to Midnight Rock.” My question to SC was direct and cordial his response was as follows: At the time I thought it was not a direct and honest answer. As I said later in the thread I can care less about the bolts. I was asking a direct question about bolting existing routes and offered silliness. Readers can figure for themselves who is spinning.

I agree Matt. The BS on this site is amazing. It would be cool if there was a place people could discuss things without all the crap. I think it keeps even more interesting people and discussions away. Readers can read the linked thread get an idea of the route SC and I are discussing and come to their own conclusions as to what a new route means.

LOL I knew about the torquing part. Was there really a defective bunch of bolts: that is did Rawl admit they were defective?

Rudy - Max broke one on Oxygen (could it have been in the 80s?)and one pulled out on one of the Rap Wall routes. Both were 3/8".

Me SC link I'll leave it to readers to decide who is spewing the shit. I would note that the clean pro attainable along the base of Dana's Arch was far more marginal than the stuff along Snow White. Anyway I think I am through with this thread. Cheers,

Ya pretty funny SC. I would only note our online conversation a few months ago regarding Dwarf Tossing. You quite clearly claimed it was a new line never climbed before and proclaimed it was one of the best routes at the Town Walls. What is odd is that except for a 10' section at the bottom it followed Snow White. Snow White was in every guide published since the mid '70s. Some friends and I freed a section of that route using obvious pin scars for nuts (ground up) in the late '80s. This was reported in all guidebooks since the late '80s as well. Despite the obvious pins scars, despite the fact that it was a long established route you claimed it was a completely new route. Yep you are a pretty perceptive guy. Anyway spray on!

Yikes a guy become incommunicado for awhile and come back to the typical CC.com spray fest. A few things should be noted. We added some bolts to Dana’s Arch because it was being beat to hell. (less than there are now and no anchor) Fingertip pulls had been transformed to thank god holds. As noted by MisterMo the nailing was A1 => flat out easy. We added some bolts. We figured the difference between A1 nailing and bolting is not really that great and we’d be saving the rock from more damage. We added the bolts 20+ years ago and as of last summer people continue to nail the route. This despite that section being called "free" in every guidebook since the mid ‘80s. ironically, the first time I met pope was when I heard “tap tap tap” of a hammer on a clean route at the Lower town Wall. Interested parties should search for a thread called “Rock Police” for the details. Is it a wilderness experience? Doubtful if the term wilderness is to have any meaning. Just before the base of Dana' is reached is a landing zone fuilled with broken bottles, trees and other debris thrown form the top. My fav item thrown off was a toilet. At the time most people simply were climbing up to the thread (The thread is no longer in existence; it was located near the top of the arch) and lowering off. The thread was a messy collection of slings. The rock up to there was of course badly damaged. The crack then turns vertical ends and a bolt ladder with a couple of bomber hook moves continues to Cheeto Ledge. Would pins have worked? Doubtful. One problem with the Town Walls is pins are constantly being stolen. Since we bolted it I have actually seen a fp appear and disappear in the arch. Two summers ago I recleaned a route I put up in the early 80s. It started off with a thin arch the first few moves were protected by a fp. Someone removed the fp and took a 3 inch scallop out of the rock in the process. Now it is very hard not to use this chipped hold. On Bat Skins I placed a couple of Kbs to protect a stemming section. They were almost immediately stolen. Bat Skins is in my opinion one of the classic WA stemming test pieces. Far more difficult than any other stem I have done in the state. Classic and yet no one does it because the pins were stolen. Considering that people were still nailing Dana's last summer and chance of pins working is reduced an absurd possibility. Sport climbing related? We bolted it before the days of sport climbing. Could it have been climbed clean when we bolted it? Not by any reasonable definition of the term. Are pins as good as bolts? In general no. I would note that I read once in the (Seattle Times?) that once of the bolts we placed broke in a fall! Turns out in this particular case a pins might have been stronger. Would bolts be yanked within a week in Yosemite? Maybe. It depends on who placed them. Without getting caught up in triva just look and the cover of Yosemite frees Climbs. The cover shot is of Cookie Monster. Original rating: A3 no bolts. Freed without bolts too I believe. How does this differ from the Zipper? Bolts were added to the Zipper Roof during an ill fated free attempt. Creative scarring was also inlvolved. (Those pins do come in handy!) I mention this because the same thing happened on the vertical section of the Dana’s Arch p1. There is a variation pitch to the Zipper Roof that has bolts that is not what I am referring to. This activity was most definitely related to the rise in sport climbing. I can clearly remember being told that I did not know how to put up modern routes” while debating the worth of some modern routes. At the time the debate between climbers regarding these chipping was quite spirited. Somewhat dissillusioned I finally ask Clint to remove my name from FA credits in his guide thinking that people would ask why I wasn’t listed and I could give my anti-chipping sermon. Several years ago I ran into one of those on the other side of the debate and was angry with myself for letting our friendship get ruined over such crap. Cheers

You can clearly see how much the trees have grown since then. As far as the start of the arch, it was freed on TR at 5.12. Then in a short time the 5.12 became 5.11, and it is now 5.10. My friend Terry and I added a few bolts (20+ years ago)while it was still 5.11+ thinking that it would keep the pin damage down but I was there last year and someone was nailing the larger size baby angles in, so the effort turned out to be not so effective. We stopped free climbing just before the crack turned vertical. There use to be a thread to lower off. Since then the thread has blown out.

It was Les Davenport? The "mandatory" free section btw is clean white rock. It's an amazing route. Virtually no pin scars. Wild features. Steep. Pretty impressive for a 40 year old route. Must be the limited season that keeps people away. Although the slime isn't really slippery when dry.

Anyway, on another subject do you know the guys who climbed the Waterway Route? That's a hell of a route and I always wondered what people thought of it in the 60s & early 70s.

Don - Greg Child placed a couple on the second pitch to protect a free route that very quickly moves to the left. With the exception of the first pitch, I haven't been on the route in at least 25 years but remember the top always had alot of bolts.

More info and petition.

Looks Great. Happy B-Day! Enjoy those teen years while you still can!

mmmm maybe Ben but... We were discussing two routes climbing thru the overhangs on Lower Castle Rock. You then claim that you have climbed all the routes right of the Fault. The upper pitches of the Fault form the right most route I know of on that part of the crag. Thus in that sense every route on the crag is left of most of the Fault – this includes those routes you say you have climbed. (all about ½ rope length slab routes) Squeak is to the left of the majority of the Fault. You call it route above the Fault not to the left, so it seems that you are being inconsistent with your use of the location describing terms. I would note that at any time on Squeak if you were to head directly right you would intersect the Fault. The same thing would happen if you chose to descend. The reverse is true for the route you mention.. Apesville and Monkey Lip, it should be noted, ascend through a layer of roofs that cuts across Lower Castle Rock. They share a approach up and to the left of p1 of the Fault. Brass Balls breaches the roofs by continuing basically straight up from the bottom of the Fault. The routes climbing through the right side roofs (including Squeak) share an approach climbing up and right from the start of the Fault. You said that you climbed every route to the right of the Fault. The entire Fault route has probably gone years without being climbed. I ask several questions with which you reply with inconsistent use of locational terms. I conclude that you are just being an obscurantist. In fact that night I pm’d a mutual friend asking if you were drunk! I would add that in discussing the location of the roof routes the first descripter used would be left or right side. Left and right would be defined by being left or right of the intitial pitch of the Fault.

mmmm maybe Ben but. We were discussing two routes climbing thru the overhangs on Lower Castle Rock. You then claim that you have climbed all the routes right of the Fault. The upper pitches of the Fault form the right most route I know of on that part of the crag. Thus in that sense every route on the crag is left of most of the Fault – this includes those routes you say you have climbed. (all about ½ rope length slab routes) Squeak is to the left of the majority of the Fault. You call it route above the Fault not to the left, so it seems that you are being inconsistent with your use of the location describing terms. I would note that at any time on Squeak if you were to head directly right you would intersect the Fault. The same thing would happen if you chose to descend. The reverse is true for the route you mention.. Apesville and Monkey Lip, it should be noted, ascend through a layer of roofs that cuts across Lower Castle Rock. They share a approach up and to the left of p1 of the Fault. Brass Balls breaches the roofs by continuing basically straight up from the bottom of the Fault. The routes climbing through the right side roofs (including Squeak) share an approach climbing up and right from the start of the Fault. You said that you climbed every route to the right of the Fault. The entire Fault route has probably gone years without being climbed. I ask several questions with which you reply with inconsistent use of locational terms. I conclude that you are just being an obscurantist. In fact that night I pm’d a mutual friend asking if you were drunk!

Gosolo - My point is simple. I stated it several times. "the 70s were not an era of zen masters". In fact I remember them as being even more full of conflict than now. That's all I am saying. I think I was clear about that several times in this thread. A narrow and specific argument not to be seen as being for or against rebolting of old exisitng routes. By the way in 30 years climbing I have never added a bolt to an existing free climb. I guess I am probably flogging a dead horse.

Ben on here. Go read the thread. His assertion was specifically to lend weight to his opinion. I would agree that erorrs ocur. I cant even remember if I led something or not years ago. The reason I brought this up was because it is a perfect example of someone trying to give authority to their aurgument with factually incorrect statements. He was making claims of the relative worth of routes. So his assertion that he has climbed all these routes is a big part of his argument.