Dwayner

OK, Thinker-dude: I'll keep the lecture short. The term "Pentateuch" is Greek and refers to the first five books of the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. To Jews these books are also known as the "Torah" or the books of law (because that's where the commandments are found....not just ten, but 613 of them!). The Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek around 250 B.C. and this translation is referred to as the Septuagint. It would later be translated into Latin and eventually thousands of languages. No, the Pentateuch is not written in Aramaic but there are a few verses elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible, notably in Ezra and Daniel, that are written in that language. Also, in the New Testament, there are a few phrases, Aramaic being the native spoken language of Palestine during the time of Jesus. Aramaic is very similar to Hebrew and today apparently there are two little villages in Syria where the language is still used. The Hebrew Bible/Old Testament was also translated into Aramaic (between c. 250 B.C. and A.D. 300) and those translations are referred to as "Targums". By the way, the square Hebrew script used for writing and printing over the last couple of thousand years is derived from the Aramaic writing system. Prior to that, Hebrew was written in a much different alphabetic, "paleo-Hebrew"script. Here's a cool little thing showing the old Hebrew script and the Aramaic based block script that was later adopted and still in use today, including for use in modern Hebrew. (By the way, Hebrew was not spoken as a "living language" until about 120 years ago at which time it was "revived"). Regarding translations: trust me....there's a lot in the grammar and the way everything is tied together, that most translations can't do justice compated to studying the original text, and can only come close with lots and lots of footnotes or commentary with each verse. Take the first three Hebrew words of Genesis (the first book in the Bible), for example, often translated into English as "In the beginning, God created ..." From Hebrew, it can also be translated as "When God began to create...", which has quite some interesting implications regarding the nature of God, time and existence. What is "in the beginning"? The beginning of what? On the other hand, "when God began to create..." suggests a different notion of time depth. And that's just from the first word! The verb "to create" in this verse in Hebrew uses the third person masculine singular form, "he created", but the noun that goes with it is plural ("Elohim"), a word which has been translated and discussed from a variety of different perspectives. Some say this name meaning God is really a "royal plural" referring to the one God. Some Christians will claim that this plural name for God refers to the Trinity. Anyway, the points I made above refer to just the first three Hebrew words in the Bible! O.K. I think you've had enough. Here....go home and study this.....it's Genesis 1:1-8 And don't forget to read from right to left! shalom, Dwayner What has this got to do with climbing? Not much, really, but the guy asked!!!!

"Didn't somebody say merlot?"

Charles: I thought we's going bowling with the albino. - Dwayner

As Muffy said, we've come to some sort of understanding. It meant so much to me that I drove down to Oregon with a photographer to capture the unfolding incident. First, we aired our grievances: Then we had a few drinks: Then we made this sign and I went home. Right on! - Dwayner

If you go to a bowling alley, look out for this guy, he is a legend: The story is as follows: "The legend began on a crisp October night in 1974, at a small 12-lane alley just outside of Roundlake, Illinois. League night was winding down and, as usual, some of the guys decided to stick around and roll a few games for money. About midway through the first game, the doors swung wide open and a pale figure with a bowling bag stood in the doorway. He walked in slowly, pointed at lanes nine and ten, then sat down to change his shoes. The locals' games had all but stopped as they gazed at him with curiosity and amusement. They noticed that just above the stranger's breast pocket was a hand-stitched name: Dick. Paying no mind to their low murmurs and stifled laughter, Dick put a brace around his wrist and pulled a gleaming white bowling ball from his bag. He squinted at the lane for a few seconds, then took a slow steady approach and sent the ball speeding toward the pins. The ball rumbled out toward the ten board, drowning out the whispers and chuckles, then slammed back into the pocket with a thunderous crash. As the pins lay scattered, some still spinning from the force, Dick turned back toward the ball return, nodded and smiled. And then he was gone. Before the other bowlers could ask him to join their league he vanished out the door and into the night. Those who were there that night never forgot what they witnessed, and many people have since claimed to have seen his thick sideburns, steely pink eyes and gleaming white ball in some small bowling alley, in some small town on some memorable evening." The "Albino Bowler", as he has come to be known, left such an impact that he is now an action figure: It's good to keep one around just for inspiration.

Interesting point, Language-Goat....that's a word I rarely encounter but it's a good one. O.K., Since we're in correction mode, Mr. Goat, re: your autosig: "Many are called, few are chosen" attributed to "Haiku Master DW" is actually part of a parable told by Jesus in Matthew 22. The specific verse, (22:14) can be read "For many are called, but few are chosen" (Revised Standard Version.) Ahoy! Dwayner

E-rock....if you are attempting to refer to me, I have nothing to retract or concede. I've just reread my original post in light of the ones that follow and I stand by my comments. Perhaps you are referring to yourself in your quote. I accept your apology. No hard feelings....have a beer and some sausage: "frustrated" Allison: there is no anger here. On the other hand, I have no interest in discussing anything controversial with you. The first time we ever met you started that up and I'm not interested in repeating the experience (and it ain't because I felt you had the upper hand.) I think we get along better talking about things that don't have to do directly with the outdoors or climbing. Muffster: I ain't upset. THIS IS SPRAY, to which you contribute at least your fair share. Listen to catbirdseat...If you don't like my opinion, you can always ignore me. I ignore you 99% of the time. But don't expect everyone to agree with your views. Relax, who the hell cares what Dwayner thinks? Take it or leave it. It's a doggone internet spray parlor!Again, if you're going to resort to name calling, at least check your spelling. It's "horse's ass". Here...Dwayner's gonna buy Muffy a beer: I hope you like it....it's Mickey's, and a lot of people enjoy it if you don't tell them what it is or show them the bottle. Kind of like Spam.... "what's in this here sandwich? It's good!" Why it's Spam! "But I don't like Spam!" Have you ever tried it? "No. But I don't like Spam!" Then call it something else and you'll feel better about it. So here's a Spam sando to go with the Mickey's: mmmmm good! Enjoy your weekend and keep on sprayin. Really! Sexy-Cocoa.......ah, never mind....I'm not even going to dignify you with anything more than "keep on Moon-Dancing", whatever the heck that is. Jon...I hate to admit it, but you're right. This thread, which was meant as a semi-provocative/semi-humorous Spray topic (Just consider the title!), has taken a number of obnoxious turns. Yes, the shark has been jumped here. Not once, but perhaps three or four times. If anything positive has come out of this, it would be the thread-drifters who posted the cool photos of El-Cap and "Canary" on Castle Rock. - Dwayner

The judge has spoken. a) I don't think you know from rabbi. b) nice opinion, Sparky. what are you an expert on? c) laugh-away!

"I enjoy reading your remarks, Dwayner, but if you are going to be pedantic and put down others' comments as uninformed and random, while exhorting your own as studied and balanced, you really have no right to complain when someone takes offense." Guess what? Some of those comments are uninformed and random and some of mine aren't. Some people don't like that fact. Reread what I said about comment weight. I never claimed to know everything. I don't participate in the vast majority of the topics here on which I have not much to say. But when I do say something serious, it's usually based on something I'm informed about, often very informed about, with hopes that someone can learn from my perspective. (including learning that they can reject it.) If people don't like it, they can pass it by.

Thanks, Sybil!

I note some curious trends Some of you people must think I'm your personal censor and now you're having a rebellion. Here's an example of "muffy's" "civil" discourse from yesterday: "Dawayner you are aan ass and I have lost all respect for you. Didn't you just say something yesterday about people being allowed to express an oppinion. I expressed mine. I guess it wasn't populare enough." How does Dwayner keep anyone from expressing their opinion? Maybe she thinks that if I disagree with her, she's being "shut down". I might say that I think an opinion is wrong, naive or foolish, and try to back it up but anyone can take it or leave it. I don't control this bulletin board. The closest I might come to that is if I find something utterly repugnant (like child abuse jokes, or laughing about people with cancer), I might suggest to the moderators that the topic be shut down, but that's their decision, not mine. And then Mattp. say: "Or is it simply your position that none of us have a right to comment on the Bible?" To which I replied: "Did I ever say that someone couldn't comment? Comment away! Lack of knowledge doesn't seem to stop too many people from popping off around here!" And by the way, not all opinions have equal weight...that disturbing relativistic notion is becoming all too common. Your M.D.'s opinion on your medical diagnosis most likely holds more weight than the guy who just started a MOFA course. Tom Hornbein's comments on high altitude effects hold more weight than some character with one trip up to Camp Muir under his belt. In other words, some of you don't know what the hell you're talking about while others certainly do. All, however, are free to express themselves. And then there were "sex-cocoa's"; comments suggesting that those whose perspectives differ from his require counseling. I don't get it. It's like an odd trend going around here that if someone disagrees with you then they are somehow preventing you from expressing yourself. Like, what-ever!!! - Mighty King Dwayner

"Or is it simply your position that none of us have a right to comment on the Bible?" Mattp....I really expect more out of you than this kind of crap. My point is that a lot of people have opinions about the Biblical text that are based on nothing more than clichés and hearsay. They haven't studied it. That's all. I'm merely trying to demonstrate that there is far more to the text beyond quoting it without a knowledge of its context. flebleblebleblebleb asked if anyone was a Biblical scholar so I offered some insights. Did I ever say that someone couldn't comment? Comment away! Lack of knowledge doesn't seem to stop too many people from popping off around here! Realistically, if someone doesn't have a respect for the spiritual content or authority of the Bible, it all becomes a bunch of historical trivia. If one thinks there is some sort of meaningful substance to the Bible, than an interested person would try to find out what it might mean. Some people don't like some of the possible conclusions because it doesn't fit their view of life. So be it. I really don't care what anybody's personal religious beliefs are around here. I'm not a religious missionary. - Dwayner

"i was reading one of ther responses to dr. laura online somewhere, and it notes that a section of the bible saying that homosexuality is an abomination, also says that eating shellfish is an abomination, and wearing clothing made of mixed fabrics is an abomination. any bible scholars out there confirm or deny this???" Yes, all of that is in there. And unless you understand the historical, cultural and theological context, including a lot of other related information presented in the Torah (the books of law = the first five books of the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament = Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy), the meaning of these prohibitions is not immediately obvious. Some of these laws, among other things, are both practical (bad shellfish can mess you up), and also religious (kosher food as self-denial and discipline as a holiness issue). The pig prohibition may mean all of the above and might also be economically wise in the ancient near east as pigs are hard to herd, etc. (I've written two books with chapters that deal with the ideas behind these Jewish laws, so I'm not just randomly popping off in the typical cc.com fashion.) I would imagine that many people who ridicule about these Biblical laws because they don't understand them. Some of these rules have additional context outside of the laws themselves, including the prohibition against homosexuality that is not only bluntly stated in the oft-quoted verse from Leviticus, but is also deeply imbedded in the 2nd Chapter of Genesis, in which God creates a pair, male and female as part of the divine plan. Having studied Genesis in Hebrew (which I continue to do, in fact, our group just met today), I can assure you that there are layers upon layers of profound, often metaphorical, meaning and implications in nearly every verse, much of what can't be derived from reading a translation. To scoff and dismiss these things without having studied this material is all too easy to do. I don't claim to have all the answers (and there are loads of interpretations) but I have a tremendous respect for this stuff. It's a lifetime study even for the experts. shalom, Dwayner

"Sex-cocoa" or whatever says: "But I'm not gonna sit here with a sanctimonious tone lecture to others about their chosen form of protest. " Leave that to me, Sparky. It's about time that someone gives some of these folks the "emperor has no clothes" lecture. Take them aside and say, the '60's are over and a lot of the classic protest forms have long-standing negative baggage with them. (and they can take or leave the advice I offer, obviously). A million serious people making a stand is far more impressive than a million clowns putting on a circus. Save the costumes for the gay pride parades. Someone mentioned MLKing in a related post. Did the civil rights demonstrators make a carnival out of their protests? Hardly. They were darn serious, and people took notice. 'nuff said, cocoa. so, are you still of the opinion that I need "counseling" because I disagree with you? shalom, Dwayner

Hey Muffy: You expressed your opinion, and I expressed mine. Good. I asked for clarification. You got hostile. Did you expect that I was required to agree with you? No one demands a popular response, but some might hold you to your words, or ask you to think through what you stated or implied. I don't necessarily disrespect you because of the opinion you seem to express but I guess you aren't up to the challenge. Name-calling such as "you are aan ass" speaks for itself. By the way, I don't miss your respect because I never assumed I had it anyway.....a good way to survive in this internet message world. shalom, Dwayner And by the way, if you're going to stoop to name calling, do check the spelling: it's "an ass".

Hey Mr. Moderator: If you're going to be strong-handed and delete the subsequent posts, why not delete the whole topic and explain why? Personally, I think it revealed both cruel and compassionate responses from unsuspecting sources. I wanted to ask Miss Muffy what Pat Robertson had done to her (not that I am his supporter), because she seems to approve that he deserves to die in a slow and probably painful fashion and speculates about the mind of God even though she doesn't believe in God. ???????

That's funny, that's exactly what I imagine Dwayner would expect "serious" protesters to look like. I hope everyone goose steps on Saturday. That'll sway the right-wingers. E-rock: You are ignorant and full of assumptions. Imagine what you like. You neither know me, nor my personal viewpoints on the war, nor do you seem to understand my points about protest. Instead of demanding an apology from you for suggesting I am a right-wing fascist, I'll just dismiss this as just another example of thoughtless name-calling from another anonymous sprayer on the Internet. - Dwayner

Hey "Sex-Cocoa" or whatever: Listen up, pal. My viewpoints will hopefully eventually emerge as the future of protest. This is a new day that requires new approaches. (and yes, still peaceful tactics). The worn-out self-gratifying carnival acts should be recognized for what they seem to be: ineffectual. Masses of people marching can make an impressive point. I'm all for that. Masses of people making asses out of themselves in the process, or diluting the message with extraneous causes, greatly weakens the cause. I usually don't say much about my personal life on this board because basically it's no one's business unless I care to make it such. But I'll say this, over the last six years I was the right-hand man of a major European advocate of world peace and a healthy environment, and this is what he had to say about it: "Don't dye your hair blue, put a bone in your nose and sit down and protest. Stand up and do something." I agree. In other words, get serious. Especially if you want to be taken seriously. Quit fooling around. Identify and address the real agents of change and attempt to convince them of your cause. Hang up your puppets, stop the charade, and get real. I might even be on your side of the war issue (then again, maybe not) but that's not the point. I'm pointing out faults with the methods. shalom, Dwayner By the way, very "open-minded" of you to think therapy is necessary for someone who disagrees with you.

"Up to 10 million people on five continents are expected to demonstrate against the probable war in Iraq on Saturday, in some of the largest peace marches ever known." Let's say we got one giant protest street puppet for every 500 people.....that's like 20,000....that's a lot of giant protest puppets! And about 300,000 people dressed like this: Yawn! "Yesterday, up to 400 cities in 60 countries, from Antarctica to Pacific islands, confirmed that peace rallies, vigils and marches would take place." I'm curious about which city will be protesting in the country of Antarctica.

Trask-man: I have NO idea what that means.

dude....you haven't encountered me. you've met an opinion that you don't like. it's an opinion that's not fun but it's quite realistic. if you knew me you might be more careful before jumping to assumptions and using words like "despicable". it's wonderful that we live in a country where we can protest without too much fear, but guess what....a lot of protests are ineffectual and sway few. if the point of protest is to make a point and effect change, pay attention to what I wrote. those silly forms of protest are generally unconvincing but they do get attention, but probably not the kind you ultimately desire. in the end, you can bet that there are far more people thinking these antics are more comical than otherwise. the goal should be to get attention, make your point, and command respect so that your point will be at least considered by thoughtful others, perhaps enough to sway some to your view, and not be dismissed as insincere by the likes of me and many others. Your knee-jerk and ignorant comment about counseling and my "festering life" suggests that despite what appears to be a liberal slant, you are actually quite close-minded, and unreceptive to criticism. take a look at yourself, friend. shalom, - Dwayner

These protests might have a greater impact if people didn't dress like clowns, chant boring overused slogans (especially those beginning with "hey, hey, ho, ho"), hang signs on their kids ("toddlers against imperialist US policy", and like this kid here really understands the issues ), and generally make a foolish spectacle. Also, people protesting cheese importation, the globalization of Starbucks, and a dozen other borderline causes should be asked to have their own parade so as not to lessen the focus. And one more thing.....the giant street puppets.....it's old now....and it adds to a carnival-like atmosphere. Here's an example: If you're going to do your march, take it seriously...and maybe others will take you seriously. And by the way...if you block the freeway or perform some other obstructionist act...you are losing more potential sympathizers than gaining (and endangering lives as well). And for some of you younger folk, who look up to the '60's as some sort of golden romantic age.....it wasn't. If you go to a march for the "romance", you're they're for the wrong reasons. I won't be there; it ain't might thing. but good luck anyway. What a country!

Dude: This "send the rice to the White House to stop the war against Iraq" idea appears to be yet another form of ineffectual protest. First, the Iraqi's are not people on the edge of starvation. Secondly, your rice package is going to end up in the White House dumpster. It will not make it to Iraq and the "idealists" trying to make their point are wasting food. Like many forms of protest, this sort of thing does little to change policy, but what it does do is make THE PROTESTORS feel good as if they have done something about the situation, in other words, a form of SELF-GRATIFICATION. Will we give the Iraqi's supplies and even food? Absolutely! How about sending that postage and rice money to one of the more competent food agencies and have them feed truly desperate people in places like the Sudan, or to a local food bank here. They could use some rice. In the meantime, how about thinking up peaceful ways to make a point without wasting food. Clever, creative and kind ways, rather than annoying ways if not silly ways. think about it. - Dwayner By the way, the Biblical quote apparently behind the inspiration for this idea is: Romans 12:20 No, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head."

A lot of people aren't voting because you didn't add Dwayner and pope to the list.

And check out the goofy-lookin' clown pants on the one in the middle. Did Trask take this picture at the circus?