backcountrydog

check you pms ade

i would suggest venting the back door the same as the front (at the top). in my experience this has been the most effective way of venting and results in the least amount of frost. you will still have frost inside though.

calling all the people on the house list took me 7 minutes (beat ya o-white ) easy as pie and most of them told me that almost everyone who called in was against it. do it, do it now...

just fyi that pic that nolse posted wont give you an idea of snow in the methow as sherman pass is no where near the methow valley.

dane in your post that stated this thread, did you send bd, metolius, and petzel that email? if so, did you email them back giving them you opinion in your last post? just curious

rafael the scenario i am describing is the bottom of the 2 pictures in tomtom's link. it is very easy to duplicate if you have a bolt and a draw right in front of you.

same way, for sport draws (which on my rack are shorter style) for 1 big reason. if opposed, when the draw 'follows' the rope, the gate of the biner on the hanger can be opened by the bolt.

i have a pair. i like em a lot. approached and climbed backbone ridge in them for their 'break-in' climb and have no complaints.

if going w chain or quicklink i think 3/8 is the standard to go with(strength/thickness). the working load for run of the mill hardware 3/8 quick-links is 1980 lbs. 3/8 chain is less. not sure where u live, but tacoma screw lets you cut whtvr length of chain you need, their quicklinks are kinda expensive.

yes i have seen it i was quoting from the guidebook that quote was not the point so, uthinks kramer was mad, etc etc. any first hand knowledge of this? who cares, this is way out in left field from bolt discussion.

So you have no first hand knowledge of this? Methinks Crammer was mad it got chopped and wanted to get even. The guys who did it are on (or were) this board. Take it up with them. dude, first hand knowledge? what are you talking about? i explained to you that 'clumsily chopped' was a quote from the guidebook. i could care less. so proof of whtvr is irrelivent. the POINT is, it was chopped and so the next generation of climbers you speak of will look at this and assume that bolting gear protected climbs is NOT acceptable. not the other way around. seems kind of silly to assume what all these new and upcoming climbers are going to be thinking just because they went climbing at exit 38 or heard about a retrobolt getting chopped?

'clumsily chopped' i was quoting from the guidebook.

the unwritten rule about adding fixed gear to an established line is 'ask permission from the first ascentionists'. i had heard that the offending bolters did get permission from the first ascntst. does anyone know if this is true? that is 1 example and the rte was 'clumsily chopped'. i dont think that the next generation of climbers will have a problem understanding that this wasnt acceptable. im not aware of any others and i dont think that rts in leavenworth are runout in general either. but ddd was runout and 1 or more of the fixed pins that were present 'in the rtes original condition' when it was first led have been gone for a while. who cares the rt was chopped that ones over. i would say dont be scared about 1 or 2 rts being retro'd. sometimes rts are brought out of obscurity and appreciated by climbers. go climbing...its more fun that being scared not climbing

im not so sure that most people will assume this. and if they do, they will probably adjust there assumptions when they climb somewhere else. the next 2 closest climbing areas are index and mt erie? if these misguided exit 38 begginers go to one of these areas they will see that it is nothing like exit 38 and will assume that different styles of climbing are adopted at different crags. OR, 'most' of these climbers will never put up a rt in there life, therefore laying to rest any worries about them 'grid bolting every random piece of rock' out there. i think that as climbers we are staying on top of things when it comes to overbolting. go read the 'bolts by subaru' thread

arlen, im not sure what your point is. there ARE crags w a no bolt policy. thats great! i think that there should be. im not sure why you state this... i never said that there was a 'natural' point of equilibrium, but rather "the pendulum WILL rest somewhere inbetween. a consensus that survives if it fits kinda sounds like the same thing to me. and people talking about ethics is a good thing, i agree with you... however i think theres a big difference between a crag that has some sport rts and a grid bolted wall. just like calling a sport rt a bolt ladder isnt exactly accurate by most climbers definition, imo

to those that spoke up amidst a sea of dismissal...

im curious if the people who placed the bolts were local guides, and if they were hired through their employers or as a side job thing. when i think 'local guide', i think of someone that should know better...

scott since we are talking about cragging, i said 'lots of places you shouldnt place a bolt' in regards to cracks, even if it is a crag. or retrobolting w/out the 1st ascntst permission, etc... the extremes on either end of the topic dont really fit into todays crag climbing picture. a 'bolt it all' attitude or a 'no bolts in climbing' attitude arent very practicle. UNLESS your talking about an exit 38 type area (necessary evil) or at crags w a no bolt ethic (england somewhere?). somewhere inbetween is where the pendulum will rest. just because dwayner or whoever isnt here to say "NO BOLTS AT ALL" inbetween every thread, does that mean there is no discussion? that doesnt appear to be the case. what i see is 7 pgs of bolting discussion that hasnt been moved to spray and people are voicing there opinions almost as if we were all adults or something...

leading sport climbs is fun. people dont want to be told they Have to lead a sport climb, or they can't bolt a face simply because it would be possible to set up a tr on it. and at a crag, they shouldnt be. bolted climbs have been coexisting with crack climbs at crags all over the world for years. whether or not you want to understand that bolted face climbing is a part of climbing history, as are bolts...is up to you. sport climbing took off because all kinds of climbers like it, not just sport climbers. there are lots of places you shouldnt place a bolt. but thats no reason to ban all bolt protected face climbing. not that you could... cragging is fun. btw this the best bolt discussion i have read yet on this site.

after reading all of this, it doesnt sound like there is anyone that is pro-litter. i am all for mixed rts but i dont think leaving draws up for months is good style. but ill bet those draws have been up since last winter, and since this is the first time its been made an issue here(?), how big of an eyesore is it really? unless your going up there looking for something like this? and if someone is going to do the rest of the cc.com climbing community a favor by taking the gear down, i think they should continue the favor and return the draws to the person who left them. after all, having fun and sharing a love of climbing with fellow climbers is whats its all about. oh ya, and actually going out and climbing

mine is all hashed up too. this happened w/ an earlier issue and i reported it to there 'damaged mag' dept. they said a bunch of wa. subscribers were reporting it. they gladly sent me another. im going to do the same thing this time. for 13 bucks it shouldnt arrive ripped.

i dont know but i thought i remember hearing about a repeat of eve dearborn several yrs ago...no?

Lafuma Warm n' light. weighs at just under a lb. 80 bucks i think? from 2nd ascent. its about the size of a 6" sub when packed. i love it

Offwhite i think you bring up a lot of excellent points that MOST people who climb (and complain about climbs) dont consider. deciding what to do in certain situations is reserved for those that put up routes and maintain them, for the most part. and people who dont put themselves in the position of pioneering new routes, dont often understand the decisions faced in doing so. and marty and lucky are pretty right on w what they are saying

ya...no i bouldered there for 2 yrs before the logging, and many problems had been developed and boulders cleaned. yes i(we) scrubbed moss, u have to in order to climb. then the logging happened. the destruction that was caused was so out of proportion to the bouldering that i dont know how u can look past that to the climbers. and im almost sure that the marks you saw on boulders were caused by the chokers that the loggers use. giant cables used to move the downed trees to the edge of the cut so they can be hauled away. no wire brush can make those marks. but yes, we do have an impact and i think that almost everyone i have met out there is trying to somewhat take care of the place. i have removed trash from the logging, and i know others have to. and 1 other thing, when i went on a climbing trip in europe, there was so much more shit at the climbing areas than i have ever seen here. climbers actually shit and leave there paper at the base of rts. i dont see how u can say we suck when u have those things going on in your part of the world. also boulderers are still a minority grp at the zekes area. every weekend hundreds of motorcyclists use that area leaving behind a shitload of trash. it sounds like your comments are due to a lack of information about the area