backcountrydog

if the bolts your pulling out are expansion studs they can sometimes be coerced by tightening (overtightening) them. this is what you are warned against when installing. combine tightening with loosening and gentle prying with a crowbar. if the bolt is badly rusted or the threads are shot you run the risk of the bolt breaking off. but most really old bolts come out surprisingly easy a lot of times. the are several articles in the mags (as previously suggested) with lots of experienced based insight. you can put a new 3/8 in an old 3/8 hole. most old 3/8 seem to be 3inches or less in length so by using a longer shank you can facilitate the same hole (preferred). stainless steel is better than galvanized, colored hardware over shiny steel, and fixe makes a sweet 3 bolt, 1 rap ring 2 ss permanant biner, anchor system as mattp suggested. as far as removing old bolts, bring a wrench and a prybar and go slow and most of the time you can work the old bolt out

hey cc sounds like quite a trip. from your description it kind of sounds like you were on the sw face but your concern of being blown out on the north side of the gully makes me wonder since the rap for the sw face is already on the n side of the gully. maybe you meant the east side of the gully or were on a different rte. just wondering and good job, whatever rte, in those conditions.

W- your replies are well put and i wish the would-be choppers would take your ideas to heart. the fact is that climbers can be ignorant and climbers can act as if they are the star of the whole show and the rest of the climbing community is just the audience. stonewall might be one of those people as his replies show that he is NOT hearing what you're saying and is very excited about the thought of chopping a route that he hasn't climbed but has deemed over bolted. as long as this kind of ignorance has energy behind it, we run the risk of having wa pass turn into a boulder, co. stonewall, maybe you would understand it this way. if someone with a bosch had the same attitude about bolting that you do about chopping, the both of you could spend the next 20 yrs turning every crag in wa. into shit. and dont even think that you saying "i'll just keep chopping until everyone does things my way" will put an end to the bolts going in. that has never worked and the more conflict you create the more negative attention you bring the rocks and those of us who climb them. why dont we all just wait and see if a) the route is in fact over bolted (which NO ONE can confirm yet, and b) if it can even be called a sport route (which NO ONE can confirm, bolts alone dont make it so, (look at static point or the apron of yosemite, not exactly clip ups)). face climbing is as much a part of climbing as crack climbing and there IS room for both. there are too many climbers now that arent on the far right or the far left. and STILL, no one can confirm that the bolts are being placed on rappel. so to the first ascentionest, if your not over bolting and you want to dodge the rap-bolt bullet, put the bolts in on lead and if it gets hairy, just use a favorite trad/aid technique and drill/chip a comfortable hook placement to bolt from

true W, true... my post was not directed at you and i agree with what you say. bolting a piece of rock is serious business and your suggestion of soul searching should be taken to heart by everyone. but, it doesnt sound like very many of the opinionated climbers responding here have actually talked to the first (or soon to be first upon completion) ascentionest to know where they are coming from. maybe it is a line that has classic written all over it that nearly everyone who climbs it will enjoy. maybe the FA's have been scoping that line since they started climbing 15 yrs ago, and went a 'sacred, soul searching pilgramage' before one single bolt was put in. the fact is the most people who are assuming the worst case scenario (bolts every 3 feet) dont know. the are just running to their biggest fear (which inevitably creates it). we cannot prevent every terrible act from happening in the climbing world. we can however, learn from our mistakes and the mistakes of others to prevent us from screwing everything up. and my whole point being that learning involves being out in it, seeing the route, and actually climbing. if it ends up being some shwag, over bolted, choss heap of a route, with chain links for bolts, well then, we all have a model to show what we dont want to happen and hopefully through that experience, wont keep happening.

amen brother

wow... this is amazing. maybe i missed something (but i read it all twice). it seems that of all those replying, only a very few of you have even seen the route or routes in question, let alone (god forbid) actually climb the f-ing thing. does the analogy of hens in coop come to anyone's mind. so many climbers flapping their holes, so few climbers actually climbing. and just to shut up any would-be protesters to this post--of course we shouldnt just sit back and let the wilderness be grid bolted. but that is NOT happening at wa pass and i AM talking from experience. get used to bolts, there here and here to stay, and the only thing worse than bolting a crack is chopping bolts. putting a bolt in an area protectable by gear is an act of ignorance but to chop someones route is the act of a spiteful ego with no consideration for the rock or the scars left. especially since the chopper is more often than not someone who claims to be smarter than the bolter. at the very least... shut the f up unless you know what the subject is (and its not whether bolts should be allowed at wa pass)

i dont think mike was putting in bolts that he thought were going to break. but i dont think safety was the only issue, (see-"not an A1 industrial climb"). but your comment on trying to make the climb easier or harder gets me thinking. the only way to make a bolt ladder harder, without moving the original bolt hole, would be to put in something that had the potential to fail. im pretty sure he didnt move the holes, he just didnt want to make an "A1 industrial climb", therefore, the 1/4 inchers. and my point was that to prevent unnecessary replacing of metal every 5 or 10 years, further scarring rock around the holes, just step in to the year 2001 and put in the bolts that OUR era of climbing has deemed the best for the job. the idea should be to preserve the rock and the climbing area, not the 1960's era 'metal of choice'. otherwise why dont we leave the rock alone and go practice sketchy bolt ladders on some man-made structure. as far as credit for coming clean on putting in sub-par bolts to begin with, your right, thanks for stepping up and taking responsibility. and once again, thanks for the time and effort in replacing what needed to be replaced.

wallstein, if i may, a couple of things, 1) thanks for putting in the effort to replace what needed replacing. 2) when the route was put up, the bolters were using what was, at the time and of course, within reason, the best tools for the job. 1/4 inchers were the standard. they didnt take that long to drill and its what climbers of that era were using. im sure they werent laughing with each other at the thought of these bolts breaking or pulling out, sometimes under body weight, on the generation of climbers to follow. if they had bosch's, and the ability to see the future, 3/8 might have been the choice. the point is that they didnt take it upon themselves to contrive some mix of metal so that THEY could give following climbers something to be afraid of as they clip a chunk of metal. the exciting part isnt supposed to be the bolt ladder. dont take it upon yourself to modify or affect the fear factor of an existing climb (especially a classic) so that it can seem like its 1966. none of the other gear you use or slings replaced on most climbs from year to year is from 1966, why the bolts? its 2001, not 1966 and bolting responsibly should mean that if your going to put a bolt with a hanger in the rock, put in a good one. you'll make more friends doing that than tying up the belays pounding metal for weeks on one of our classics, all the while thinking way too much about what you want everybody else's climbing experience to be. there is a bolt ladder there to span a section of rock, and your not going to turn an A2 into an A1 by putting good bolts in the A1 bolt ladder. im glad your replacing the mank up there with what you should have the first time (and not 1/4 in x 3/8 dowlels or something). plus it offers the option of free climbing without someone changing it further. those bolts broke because 1/4 inchers suck, regardless of who OK'd them. if you need a bolts or hangers or a partner with a drill, ill donate.

smoots-climbing the cascade volcanoes has the scoop on all the summits. FS and NP info-www.r5.fs.fed.us/shastatrinity cascade volcanoes general -www.shastahome.com safe travels and let us know how it was.