Jens

I dig WC forged friends Just my 2 cents worth: They are: *light *predictable loading -great for when you are pumped *last forever *patented cam angle that is unmathced (bd had to build a 2 axle unit ). *stable don't walk as much as metoluis or cc alliens *Numbered in a way that makes sense *Cheap - I just pro dealed a #4 for 18 bucks. The list price is $29! *Huge expansion range (2nd only to bd) * The hortizontal edge is issue is almost never a problem. You can bury the unit deep enough if you need to. * Easier to clean than flexible units. * Cams that are fat enough for soft rock types but aren't obscenely fat. We all have strong opinions about our gear. To each his own.

Shucks used to carry fake stereo face covers that looked like old plastic am radios. --------------------- At least one of my partners uses the leave nothing in the car and leave it unlocked theory. Not bad logic (ever seen how quick a slim jim works!) At least you don't get trashed windows. ________ Snow creek parking lot dialogue: "Where you guys headed?" " OUTER SPACE- WE'VE BEEN WANTING TO DO IT FOR YEARS". "Great climb, have fun you two.... heh heh."

Add those to the list! Hypothetically if one was to visit all WA and OR climbing areas the list is up to 18 different fees? And we are not even looking at B.C. Cascade climbing areas. Can anyone think of more to add to the list? My point is made and I am done spraying.

Peter, you are correct... the areas are not really threatened to anyone willing to pay the possibly upcoming $35 per dollar a year fee. I hyped up the post title a little to get more views. Also my math was a little fuzzy but here is some food for thought: A marymoor season parking permit is $50 bucks. A workday parking pass to the UW practice rock lot islikely over a $100 just for one student quarter. You got me for exxataing but not by much. If one were to buy all 16 or so, the bill would be very high.

I'm not saying we should buy into these pay to plays but here is a funny thought: I climbed with a dude about a week ago who told me that in England (where he was from) their are literally hundreds of little semi-informal climbing clubs. ____ I guess if we had hundreds of little clubs here we coud.... Each year, the club could purchase the 16 or so annual passes to all of the above areas mentioned. Passes and permits could be shared by all club members. Cool idea but then I guess that would just be supporting more demo fees. ____ Not to beat this into the ground anymore but I will be prophet.... By 2008 the permit list will have jumped from 16 to 30! Don't believe me? pull up this thread in 2008 (if cc still exists).

I wish to add something to my initial post: It is not six different types of fees or permits that I was supposed to have paid but fourteen (14)! Over a 10 year period we are talking 10-12 thousand dollars! I listed them all under the next thread about fees.

Just a few needed to climb in the pnw: (Some of them may have gone to the wayside?) 1. National Forest Trail Park Pass 2. Oregon Sno- park permit 3. WA Sno-Park permit 4.Mt.St. Helens climbing fee 5. Beacon Rock climbing/parking fee (put stub on dash) 6.Enterance fee to Mt.Rainier national park 7. Fee for going onto any glacier in Mt.Rainier NP. (climbing fee) 8.Optional season pass for MT. Rainier climb. 9.Car enterance fee to access upper parts of BakerSki area during summer (checkpoint - A couple of years ago still in use?) 10.Washington State Parks Pass 11. Marymoor Parking Fee 12. UW rock parking Fee 13. Fish and game parking sticker (to climb at Vantage and Tieton) 14. Assorted bivy and or campground fees (various areas) 15. Smith rock parking fee 16. I am sure their are at least five more than are escaping my mind right now.

I was on top of 4th of July crag once and counted seven rattlers all sunning themselves at the top of the routes. A dude was climbing one of the routes, luckily for him we weren't mean enough to flick the snakes down on him with a stick. I've never heard of "Diving Diamondback". Is it new?

The mt. shop has the updates on the spring. Be preapred to have company on the route.

Warning: This thread is long and boring After just getting back from exit 38 and also going to index a couple of days ago, I have some real concerns: Please correct me if anyone has more knowledge of the pending situations. Exit 38 situation: A few years back I noticed that whenever I would head to the actual cave/amazonia/ or other high Mt. Washington crags, I would pass a secret clicker/ counter hidden in the bushes that had been installed by WA state parks. WA state parks was trying to measure the number of users entering the area. As result of the count, they decided to make the area a fee area in which you must purachse a WA state parks annual pass ($35 to use the area). As a result, climber usage of amazonia, the actual cave, and the high mt. WA crags fell drasitcally. Now, climbers are instead flocking to the trestle, deception., and amazonia areas because of not wanting to risk a very large ticket. Also many of the hikers are using the climber lot at the base of the trestle to access the hiking that they used to go to from the other area for the same reasons as the climbers. The WA state park people are onto this parking loophole. Well sure enough today, I noticed about 10 yards up the trail from the car at the trestle area, the WA state parks people have newly placed a counter with a note attached saying basically that anyone who tries to block this counter (stating specifically "rock climbers" are idiots.). This count will be used to justify making the trestle area a lot fee area soon. For those of you that say you will just park on the road a few yards down, I will guarantee you that no parking signs will be placed along the length of this road from off ramp to off ramp. For those of you that hate 38, (it is really a great place to blow of 90 minutes of steam after work when it gets dark early). Now we all have sprayed about fees etc. plenty on this board and I have remained relatively quiet until today. Thinking back to the places I have climbed in the last 2 years, I can think of at least seven different types of passes, parking permits, bivy permits etc. that I was supposed to have purchased to access the areas. When will the madness stop? In a couple of years, we will be up to a dozen or so different types of parking permists, bivy permits,sno park permits, etc. It gets worse every year. ___________ Index situation: I was at the index parking lot a couple of days ago and a WA state park truck pulled in and out jumped two rangers with a large box in their hand that looked like it could another clicker/counter. They headed for the woods. They'll put in a shitter, garbage can, and slap a fee sign up, and put no parking signs along the river? _______ Last but not least: To put this into perspective, I live right by the WA state parks parking lot for squak mt. off may valley road. Now that they have made it a fee area, none of the locals that need the excerscise go their anymore. The place that once was popular is now a ghost town. It is kind of working class neighborhood. People just trying to pay the mortage each month can't afford the fee. I see a ranger drive all the way out just to right tickets and go home once a day. Stop the insanity I am torn.... Do we promote stewardship as advocated by the Access Fund or take other means? We need to be viewed as a responsible user group but you have to wonder...

A crag might be a singular rock climbing formation or outcrop that does not end in a summit and is not considered big enough to be a "wall".

If BD ever decides to stop making the regular ATC I hope they will tell us so I can buy a lifetime supply of them. I like it better than any of the devices mentioned although I haven't tried the Trango B52 yet.

Does anybody know anything about the bronze memorial placque partway up swim at index?

It looks like I can sneak out for a little bit to climb at either WW 2 or WW 1 at little si tomorrow morning and quit about 2:30 or 3pm. It will be warm but slightly less greasy than index. Anyone else not working midweek and game?

Wayne is the real deal. He's Mr. Solid as I found out on a previous attempt of the thing. Cut the guy some slack. He's psyched!

I'm glad the trail is getting pretty well established up there. Did you guys see any black bear sign? A couple of weeks ago there was evidence the place was crawling with em'. __ As for the descent gully off inspiration, somebody's rope got eaten and is still hanging up there.

If you trying to learn chimney technique, I would stay with granite for right now as the other areas (vantage, etc.) often let you use face holds inside the chimney. Between buildings works great. Next time you head up to Givler's dome in Leavenworth, head about 5 minutes to the right. About 30 feet left of Mastadon roof is a short widecrack that works you though all of the techniques and gets easier the higher you get. Plus it has pine needle/dirt landing so you could go over to it and clmb by yourself for an hour and really get the techniqe dialled. For chimneys, relax and take your time. Rest every move if you can. ______________ And even though I told you to go to granite, at Vantage, there is a 5.10 bolted chimney called "satan" that is one of the best routes at the place. Not like the entablature sport , trad crack, and column sport routes that all seem the same after a while (same schema of moves).

Croft's solo ridge run has almost become mythical in how often it is talked about in Cascade climbing circles. I seemed to remember reading an interview with Croft in an old rock &ice about it. I think he started up the complete north ridge to start the enchainment. I think he described the crux as some lichen covered rock between sherpa and argonaut? If you stay on the crest of the ridge their is a lot of gnarly real estate between sherpa and argonout and it is about a hortizontal mile. Definitely the time consuming part of the trip due to the fact that their are probalby two dozen little towers blocking your way. As a sidenote, we often erroneously use "traverse" interchnageably with ridge run or enchainment around here. for a euro style enchainement, you must stay on the crest the whole time and negociate towers. A traverse can take on a much more broad and less technical definition (valley end runs etc.). I'm done with my soapbox now. Have fun and watch out for snaffs

Mt. Formidable is about the coolest mountain in the area plus it is not to much a diversion as far as distance. Have fun!

One rope was just fine for getting off as of a couple years ago.

in my humble opinon, If their ropes are half as good as all the other stuff they have been making for the last century you will be fine. (They make better packs than anyone on this continent.) And nothing could be worse than a bluewater rope.

I agree!

I prefer other areas to index but when I do go there, espcially midweek I have seen some odd scavenging. Last time I was there I watched a dude go way way out of his way to go after a pin that had been fixed on a free route ( I think the pin had been a fixture for decades)? --It wasn't iron horse though. I didn't confront the dude because he looked pretty psycho and didn't say anything when I said hi earlier. I've also saw the dude climbing the g/n slab with a hammer and assumed he was looking for any booty. A lot of scavenging goes on out at index (sadly even old webbing). Plus the place is a magnet for weirdos. I hear the ringing of hammer a lot over in the g/n and roger's corner areas.

What up Wayne, There is an outside chance I've got some time this midweek through the weekend to be out in the hills. -From Wednesday night to Sunday night (4 days). If you get an offer from somebody to leave Tuesday, definitely jump on it though.