mattp

Peace and Love.

A while back there was some discussion on this board wherein it was said that the USFS has in the past removed summit registers in the name of wilderness management. I have no idea how widespread the practice may have been, but it is possible that Mount Stuart was cleaned of such unsightly debris.

Its all in the specifics of what actually happened. I've been mad when, for example, we got to a difficult point or encountered poor weather when these were exactly as expected and my partner simply announced that he would go no further and was not apologetic about it. Mount Rainier in bad weather IS something to be respected, however, and I bet Dan made a good call.

Mr. Shultz is correct. If you climb A-1 cracks, you will get a lot of practice placing and removing gear. Standing on the prior placement, you will mostly be placing gear in a crack which you can clearly see, so you can visually inspect how the cams or edges of the nut may be seated, and you will then test every piece, at least with body weight if not the stress of an actual fall. You will probably also get yourself tangled up, and learn something about rope management in the process.

Right you are, Pope. I think that in general, the attitudes expressed here are pretty cool. In extracting one of your more strident posts as an example, I intended to suggest only that if you express disdain for others (and I mean not just you but anyone who posts with such rancor), you have to be willing to become the target of someone else's attack. Hell, all you have to do is open your mouth and you may be painting a target on your side -- after I first came out in favor of peace and love by saying that negativity was bad for our sport, they called me "the old man who is trying to be cool." I actually enjoyed that bolting discussion because, while it may have been tedious to some and it did at times go "over the edge," I think the debate is an important one and I agree with those who say that it is what makes this site the real deal. In the context of that particular discussion, a "spirited" debate, your remarks were entertaining and not necessarily uncalled for, but they certainly were provocative. Its all in the context, of course, and the same retort might not be appropriate if posted in response to a question about where might somoeone find a good sport crag close to Seattle.

Pope - I'm not advocating censorship. I'm advocating common courtesy and I think that perhaps you are too. Rhetorically speaking, I don't understand the distinction between "snooty" and "snotty." Which was it when you wrote that [sport climbers are conservative. Sport climbers have removed sport from climbing. Sport climbers are neither. Yes, let's dispense with the current designations. Let's call sport climbers "rock rapers", and let's call tradsters "rock climbers"]? Either way it was perhaps a clever and entertaining remark, and I'm not arguing that you were a bad person to make it, but if you make such statements you can't really be surprised if someone else posts something that you find personally offensive, can you? Your post acknowledges that there is a point beyond which the banter becomes offensive or unacceptable for some other reason. We all have a different opinion of where the line lies, and exactly where it lies will vary from day to day, and I would draw the line a little more cautioiusly than you might. By the way, I thoroughly enjoyed Pope's Confessional and the Donna TopStep story. Spray on. -Matt [ 01-05-2002: Message edited by: mattp ]

I'm not available for those dates, but keep heart -- I've found several good partners on this board and so far not a bad one!

Perfectly dry? I wouldn't have thunk it.

The truly interesting pitch on the GM route is the last one -- offwidth anyone? Most people climb "Heart of the Country" instead (locker hands).

Oh yes--I don't mean to imply that it is all up to Jon and Tim. A simple rule of thumb, something like "don't be a jerk," might be all that is needed.

The discussion of "to spray or not to spray" is a great topic for debate, but I think that it in part misses the mark. It is true that the ease of posting messages back and forth and, yes, the spray, add to the interest of this site and I would agree with Dru that cascadeclimbers.com is more interesting than bivouac.com (though I must confess that I often find the latter to be more helpful when I am scoping a particular climb for next weekend because I can more easily locate a pertinent route report or a photograph there). However, it is also true that the banter - when it degenerates into hostility and insult - can be unsavory and it does in fact drive people away. However, in my view, we may be better served by thinking about how this site might support everyone, whether a sprayer, gear freak, naive beginner, badass, crusty old fart, or whatever. How might Jon and Tim maintain a site where it is OK for BillyBadass to tell BonnieBigWall to suck his weaser while at the same site BobbieTheBolt-Chopper might be able to say, "yes, it was me who stole all the anchors from Vantage and here is why I did so?" and BennieTheBeginner might ask for the gear list for Mount Si? Aren't they all climbers who we run into from time to time and who may have either some information for us or may have some impact (good or bad) on our climbing experience? Don't most of us believe that a site like this has its greatest value if it is a place where we may correspond with the widest possible selection of those who are interested in Cascade climbing?

If his rainfall magic comes through, the approach to the first (5.8) pitch of the G.M. route is a sure bet for a crater.

Are you back from some grand adventure? Wanna go skiing in the great white north (Pemberton)sometime?

This site IS a great resource. I disagree with Pope, however, if he is suggesting that it is no loss not to hear from those who shun the site because they have a snooty attitude and none of them are very good climbers anyway. First of all, my apologies Mr. Pope, but you have frequently expressed a "snooty attitude" yourself and this site seems to have room for people with all kinds of attitudes. Second of all, I don't care what their abilities are -- if they have an opinion on BillyBob's Bolted Badness, or if they know about the latest washout on the Cascade River Road, I'd like to hear what they have to say. I don't mean to pick an argument with Pope. What I'm saying is that when I talk to these not- overly-talented-climbers-with-a-snotty-attitude they uniformly complain about the name-calling, intimidation, and incitement to vigilantism that crops up on this site sometimes. Spray on, and have fun in 2002, everybody, but lets keep in mind the fact that some people don't like that kind of crap. This site DOES rock, and I hope it only gets better.

quote: MLU ?

An earlier post noted that the Summer approach to Pinnacle is probably not the way to go in the winter (the summer trail traversses steep, open slopes in a basin west of the peak). Head for the Pinnacle-Castle saddle (exercise caution as noted just above) and take your pick of either one. For Pinnacle, traverse west on open slopes and look for a gully near the west perimeter of the South Face. The last 200 feet are moderately steep and may involve a short steep chimney through a rockband which can be scary enough some people might want a rope or, on the descent, a rappel (a bush anchor is available just above the difficulties). [ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: mattp ]

There are a few feet of snow at Longmire, and even at the start of your hike there might be just enough snow to make following a trail somewhat difficult. Don't trust the rangers when they tell you what time the gate will be open.

Those steep, short chutes above the top of the Zipper would have been sketchy indeed, with completely unconcolidated snow over loose rock.

In the winter or spring, the direct route up Snow Gulch is the way to go. Almost the entire climb is on avalanche slopes, however, and the snow is slow to consolidate after a new snowfall because it is north facing. It is a big climb with a lot of elevation gain, but although crampons might come in handy, there is very little, if any, technical difficulty and other than perhaps a half rope or maybe a snow picket, most parties will not want any climbing gear. In the right conditions you might ski all the way from the summit to within few hundred yards of your car. To reach the route, head up "Mine Road" out behind the Texaco station five miles west of Darrington, and when you find yourself in someone's front yard, turn left and then take another left fork shortly beyond. The road will climb a steep hill on a rough roadbed and pass the Lone Tree Pass trailhead on the left. From the end of the road, it is no more than a few hundred yards to the bottom of the gulch at about 1,000 feet. Snow Gulch leads directly to the Whitehorse Glacier (its called So-Bahli-Ahli on the USGS map but I've never heard anybody but the gub-mint call it this). The bottom of the gulch is almost always filled with avalanche debris, and after about a thousand feet it is usually easiest to head right around a cliff (bushes and some small rockbands relatively quickly lead to more open slopes). From 2,500 feet to 5,700 feet, the route climbs through mostly open, rolling terrain, beneath cliffs on the right. Beyond the highest bushes, you may notice where you get onto the glacier because there are often some small crevasses and a few seracs visible, even with a heavy snowpack. At about 5800 feet the easiest route will take you up some steep slopes and onto the rib that separates Snow Gulch from the basin to the east (Sill Basin?), and another short, steep, terrain roll will take you onto the upper portion of the Whitehorse Glacier. Gentle slopes lead up and left to the summit. The last pitch may be technical, with a short steep bit of snow climbing leading to a moat and 30-40 feet of rock or rime ice to the summit. You could camp in the basin above the lower rock cliffs, and there is usually water available, but the climb can be done in a day.

Lane Peak, December 30, 2001. On Saturday, I called Mount Rainier Park and asked to speak to someone who knew about climbing conditions. After a couple of transfers I spoke with a very helpful lady ranger at the Henry M. Jackson (Paradise) Visitor Center and she assured me that the gate would open by eight o'clock, and earlier if there was no new snowfall. She also said that climbing conditions were good and that we'd be able to walk on the surface. Since no new snow was in the forecast, I figured the gate would be open early, and we'd have easy travel. It was forecast to be a little warm but not too bad, so Dave and I elected to go try the North Ridge of Pinnacle Peak. We left Seattle in fog and darkness at 5:30 a.m., stopping in Parkland for deli treats at QFC, and made good time to the park entrance. Unfortunately, at Longmire, we pulled around the bend to see a gate blocking the road. An orange sign on the gate announced that there was snowplowing underway and that the road would open "at about 9:00 a.m." It was only 7:25 and 9:00 seemed a long way off. The sky was fully blue, and nowhere in sight could we see any sign of fresh snowfall of significant wind transport so we couldn't imagine what a snowplow was doing with the road to Paradise. So much for the very helpful lady ranger. With nowhere to go, we walked into the National Park Inn. In the dining room, the hostess scowled at us when we asked for a cup of coffee, again when we asked for a toilet, and scowled once more when we told her the Park Service had said the gate would be open by now. So much for hospitality. The ranger opened the gate a little after 9:00 and we drove up the road to Narada Falls. Along the way, we saw no sign of any snow plowing but we did see some water ice above the Nisqually Canyon, just upstream from the bridge on a northwest facing rim, and some of it looked as if it might be 150 feet high and probably fat enough to offer friendly climbing. Once we finished gawking at the scenery and got out of the car, it was 10:00. The snow was much softer than the helpful lady ranger had led me to believe, so the travel would not be quite as fast as we might have hoped and the hour was late for such an awesome alpine exploit as Pinnacle Peak. We elected to head for Lane Peak instead. We could see Narada Falls from the avalanche slope just across the creek. A high freezing level and heavy water flow had removed all ice that may have been there earlier this month, and there was no ice at all. We carried our skis up the hill and walked a short way down the snowshoe track along the roadbed toward Reflection Lanes before putting on our skis and heading down through the woods toward Lane Peak. Crunchy snow offered a challenge to us, handicapped with light weight climbing boots instead of ski boots. We climbed the left-most gully of three gullies on the north side of Lane Peak. The snow was generally soft, so it was mostly a pig wallow, but it had an old wind crust beneath the most recent snowfall and below that the snow seemed consolidated enough that we weren't worried about any real avalanche danger. We put on crampons, just in case, and were glad for them when we found twenty feet of firm almost-ice and some rime along side a chockstone. Some skiers came along, looking for powder on the north facing gladed slopes of the Tatoosh Range. They did not find it. Our gully led to a small buttress, and an exposed traverse into the larger central gully. In relatively short order, we topped out in the sunshine near the top of Lane Peak. After wallowing down through mostly open slopes from the Lane-Denman Peak saddle, we found that the skiers had left us a nice friendly skin-track back to the road. Back at the parking lot, the usual tourists were posing for pictures and throwing very crunchy snowballs. The rush-hour traffic down from Paradise was bumper to bumper. In these conditions, the North side of Lane Peak didn't offer much in the way of ice climbing, but it had been an enjoyable outing.

DP's got the formula! Climb high enough the day before that you will be able to spend most of a day lounging at high camp, drinking plenty of water and eating real food. There are those who advocate the one-day push but, in my experience, most parties who arrive at their high camp late in the day do not summit.

I believe that we adjust to altitiude exposure relatively quickly so that a week at 6,000 feet immediately prior to your climb would help, but if you then spent three days in Seattle just before heading to the mountain you would have lost much of the altitude advantage. One way to avoid or at least greatly minimize the likliehood of having trouble with the altitude is to take an extra day at an intermediate level on the mountain on your way up. And such an itinerary will allow you to more easily climb one of the non-standard routes, and you may be able to find a high camp that you can have to yourself.

I believe that crag "up by Chimacum" would be on Mt. Zion. The rock is, as Erik stated, a conglomerate. I think it is welded tuff, like Smith Rock, as it is the same color and has the same pebbles in it. It faces south, and what I saw up there was about 80-200 feet high. I used to do some top-roped climbing up there with groups of "hoods in the woods" from Washington state correctional facilities. On my last visit, there were a few bolts here and there and somebody had done some work on a trail. The south facing mountainside has a Rhododendron forest on it. As far as I know, there is not enough there to draw a crowd, but I'd suggest checking into any "access issues" so that if you go up there, you won't add to some misunderstanding with a land manager. I believe there used to be someone associated with an outdoor shop in Port Angeles who knows about the area.

Sorry about the double post. It IS a steep trail to the lake, but it climbs a south slope and the short distance can help make the area easily accessible in the winter.

MtnEagle is right about Mount Constance. It is approached via a very steep (short) trail from a low elevation river valley, the Dosewallips. In firm conditions, the standard route can be very easily climbed and a descent made all the way back to the car in a day though there is enough high exposure, and steep or avalanche-prone terrain to let you know that you've climbed a mountain and a camp at the lake might not hurt your effort because there is a large elevation gain. Mount Constance is the highest peak along the Olympics eastern escarpment and is the most prominent peak on the skyline when viewed from many places in Kitsap County and the Seattle area. I have no idea about the condition of the road right now, but it can be a good winter objective and not very difficult.