mattp

quote: Originally posted by Dru: How do you find those 3/16" bolts, with a magnifying glass or what?? Some are easy to find, while others are hard to spot even if you are right beneath them. I agree, it is odd that someone would have used such small bolts, but most of what is up there is pretty odd. While the whole thing is not very user friendly given the approach, the route development, and the lack of a reasonable descent route, I should say that it is never-the-less a beautiful cliff.

Squire Creek Wall has several multi-pitch routes, and some are bolted. The approaches are brushy and scary, and the bolts are generally 1/4" or even 3/16", mostly without hangers on them. The only published information is at cands.net.

We all wear our climbing helmets, just to be safe.

To get to 74th Street Ale House from I-5, exit at 80th or 85th Street North (it may be Northeast at that point, but it is exit 172), and head west about one mile. After crossing Aurora, turn left (S) on Greenwood Avenue North, and look for 7401 Greenwood Avenue North, on the corner of 74th Street (right side, heading south). Alternatively, head west on 50th Street Northeast from the U. District (50th is the second option if northbound at exit 169). At .7 miles from I-5, stay in the right lane and go straight ahead at Greenlake Way. 50th will pass beneath Aurora, and a forced right turn will put you on Phinney Way, which becomes Greenwood.

Instruction, books and practice are good recommendations. Consider, too, spending some time thinking about how to back off a climb. On an 80 foot sport climb, all you do is thread the nearest bolt and rappel. On a "traditional" rock climb, you may need to downclimb difficult terrain without a good belay, you may need to rappel off terrible anchors, or you may need to aid your way off the climb or lasso a bush to get yourself out of a jam. These are not things that you will have learned at the sport crag or in a gym.

I'll see you there. Should anybody want to gear up for the coming season, I have some footfangs, still in the box, and a pair of Lowa Civetta's with the Extreme liners, size 10, worn once.

A party of four would be good if they are four strong climbers, but if you only have two and your partner is solid, go for it! The Gib Ledge route has minimal glacier travel, and if we get a good early season snowfall there should be little problem with crevasses up there. A crevasse fall could occur, of course, and you better be prepared for this. I have stated in an earlier thread that I am somewhat deoubtful about a two person crevasse rescue, but in my view the greater hazards on a January climb of the Gib Ledge would be related to getting caught by bad weather high on the mountain, and finding falling rock or unstable snow on the Gib Ledges theirselves. More climbers, especially if somebody is either inexperienced or unfit, is not what you want for that climb.

Aidan - I think its a great route and this would in my opinion not be a bad time to do it. For some prior discussion on this board, check the following: For a trip report from August, 2001, with a variety of other general commentary: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000187.html A few more general comments: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000187.html And another: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000099.html In this last thread, Wotan suggests considering a descent to the west. Many years ago at this time, I descended to the south, an option that I would NOT recommend, but which got me to the ground without any icy snow and without any rappel.

Pope – Great essay. I agree with you on nearly all points but a couple of the more pointed statements at the beginning and end of your post. Leading and placing gear is part of climbing, and the whole sport is changed when you remove these challenges. Bolts are ugly. Rap bolting diminishes challenge (for the route installer). Route installers often act out of selfish motivation and future changes in the sport may render all those bolts of no use at all and inarguably nothing but an eyesore. And good point that it is sport climbing which is conservative by nature. But I doubt sport climbers feel guilty about being sport climbers, and I believe they ARE climbers, though perhaps not as “sporting” as those who lead challenging climbs without all the bolts (they’ve removed sport from climbing – an amusing turn of words). To suggest that sport climbers are rock rapers while tradsters are rock climbers suggests that you have no desire to communicate with this large group of climbers who do not share your views. I know I sound like a broken record, but I’d like to see more thoughtful essays like yours and to call sport climbers rock rapers is more likely to solicit retort than debate. If we go back to name calling, this thread will be nothing more than "DDD Restored, XVIII." -Mattp

I think the determination is made with the aid of 1/2 scotch, 1/4 ice, 1/4 lemon.

A rock glacier is a heap of rock that is moving downhill much the same as an ice glacier, forming moraines and other glacial features. They contain some ice in addition to the rock, but rock debris is predominant. Some "rock glaciers" are remnants of former ice glaciers, while others have formed without prior glacial ice. They typically form in areas with a colder, drier climate, but Washington has some on the east side of the Cascades -- as on Oval Peak.

SK - I would agree with those who suggest Mount Thompson might not be a good choice. I have not been there, but by all reports the rock is medium poor to atrocious, and the posts here indicate protection may be difficult as well. To this, I will add that Thompson seems to be a frequent place for seriouis accidents, related to climber-initiated rockfall and to long falls. Even though it is probably quite scenic, I would not think it a good place to concentrate on learning to place gear. Take her to a crag where she can try something that has a known difficulty on rock that is easily protectable. The Great Northern Route at Index, Saber on Castle Rock, the regular route (whatever it is called) on Icicle Buttress, or perhaps an easy crack at Tieton. If you want to do something more mountain oriented, I second the recommendation of the S. Face of Ingalls.

ed - Your're back. Good to hear from you.

I have not been up to that basin, but it would of course be right in the middle of the traverse I mentioned just above. Any takers? (In addition to a lot of boring hiking, it is sure to have unprotected dirty glacier ice, brush, scree travel, poor rock, and maybe even some death defying heather climbing -- but I think it would make an interesting weekend.)

Forest noted: it's getting a little ridiculous around here that everytime someone says "quickdraw", the thread turns into "Dan's Dreadful Direct Part XVIII." I laughed when I read that, Forrest -- it is absolutely true. I am one of those that keeps referring to DDD, but this HAS been the most entertaining topic today, so far nobody has called anybody else a total asshole, and there have been some good points raised -- things that I haven't heard before. So I call it a good topic as long as it doesn't take over the entire board. Just as Washington has room for Sport and Trad, I hope CC.com has room for trip reports, gear info, and possibly pointless pontification (PPP).

The traverse of all three Index peaks, usually done N to S, is the way to go for a moderate alpine adventure on a famous peak that you can point out to your in-laws on the way to a weekend of souvenir shopping in Leavenworth.

Kyle's right. A single Camelot would do, or you could leapfrog. The off-width is no problem - I recall it being no more than 40 feet long and it is low angle. I don't think it is 5.9.

I've taken them to Castle Rock.

Rock on, Mystic. I'm not sure that most sport climbers would rather climb trad routes, but otherwise I generally agree with you: it is just as arrogant and egotistical for an anti-sport trad climber to carry on like an evangelistic crusader as it is for a sport climber to look down upon his trad climbing brethren because those "gumbies" can only climb 5.10 or 5.11 and they don't know how to properly employ the heel hook or do a figure 4 or whatever. And sometimes the anti- sport rhetoric does more harm than good. To me, the most important point you make is that we all need to show some humility. I can't disagree with anyone who says bolts are ugly and cause permanent scarring of the rock. But I believe as do Puget and OffWidthClimber that trad climbing also causes environmental damage and the people who argue that bolts are a desecration of nature often seem to overlook this fact. In my view, there is room for both trad and sport climbing in Washington and bolts sometimes even have a proper place on some traditional crags. If those armed with power drills would use more restraint and show what I consider to be common sense, and if those upset about the proliferation of bolts would be able to measure their response so as to avoid inflaming the situation, we would all be better off. [This message has been edited by mattp (edited 10-04-2001).]

Mike is right about the moat at the top, but I bet there is a way to deal with it if you are so inclined. And if not, you would be able to climb to within 60 feet of the summit anyway. If you might be into something a little more adventurous, I have other plans for the next couple of weeks, but I would like to try a traverse from Three Fingers and descend the regular route on Whitehorse, and I think the Fall would be a great time for such an outing.

An experienced criminal law attorney who practices in Yakima tells me that the Magistrate, Lonnie Sukko (I may have misspelled his name) is likely to be very polite and conduct a very impressive hearing but it is "very difficult" to get a not guilty finding from Mr. Sukko.

I received a call from the US Attorney's office and was told that the ticket for failure to have the permit is a "collateral forfeiture" ticket, where you pay the fine and you don't have to go to court, but a notice of infraction for giving a false name may be one that has a mandatory court appearance. Read your ticket carefully, and be sure to respond as indicated. Either way, it seems, you can contact the U.S. Attorney's office and they will be listen to your side of the story and they may be able to reduce the penalty or negotiate some payment plan or whatever. They will also provide copies of any evidence. If you do not resolve it through this kind of contact, your first court hearing would possibly be in November, but more likely January. You would go once to plead "not guilty" and you would go a second time for a trial. If you are found guilty, you will end up with a misdemeanor on your record whereas if you simply pay the fine on one of those "collateral forfeiture" tickets, you won't end up with any criminal record.

Officer Inthout's supervisor is Roger Fuson. He said he would not send me anything about this incident or respond in any substantive way unless one of you guys wants to request a hearing before the U.S. Magistrate in Yakima, and you or your attorney could then request such things as an incident report and it sounds as if the officer has a videotape as well. Fuson said that I, as a private citizen, have no right to ask for anything. To request a hearing and then ask for the evidence they have against you, contact: US Attorney - Eastern WA Post Office Box 1494 920 W. Riverside Spokane, WA 99201 Phone: (509) 353-2767 Fax: (509) 353-2766 If any of you guys think that Officer Inthout was truly out of line, I believe you absolutely should complain about him Fuson said that if anybody wants to complain about the incident they should send him a letter. He said he would then review such a letter with Officer Inthout, and review the videotape (apparently the patrol car has a camera running all the time), and he would respond "as appropriate." To complain about the conduct of officer Larry Inthout, send a letter to: Special Agent Roger Fuson Region Six LEI Wenatchee, National Forest 215 Melody Lane Wenatchee, WA 98801 (509) 662 4335

Ditto for Davis-Holland/Lovin Arms. E. Buttree of S. Early Winter Spire is also a must do. For something more alpine, I would highly recommend climbing Mt. Rainier by the Mowich Face (at least three variations are possible, and by mid season they all include some moderate alpine ice climbing in a spectacular setting, along with perhaps a bit of manky rock). Ptarmigan Ridge gets frequent mention as well. Liberty Ridge will get you more name recognition because it is in Fifty Crowded Climbs, and there are those who will argue that it is a better line, but I believe the alpine experience on the W. side of the mountain is just as good and it is more of a wilderness experience over there. Nooksack Tower is also quite an adventure, and is one of the most alpine things in the state as well as one of the more challenging objectives you might select (there is no easy route up or down).

I have no idea what you who received tickets may want to do about them, but after a conversation with Dr. Jay, I have taken it upon myself to try to get some information which may be of help. I telephoned the Wenatchee Forest Service office and learned that Officer Inthout is the law enforcement officer who works out of the Leavenworth office, and that his supervisor is Roger Fusen, who works in Wenatchee. I left a message requesting a call back from Mr. Fusen, and I intend to ask him for a copy of any incident reports that may have been filed in connection with Sunday night's ticketing. I believe this information should be public information. Should you want a copy of anything that I receive, send me an email. mattp@seanet.com