mattp

At the Blue Star, October 2: Ehmmic, ChrisW, EddieE, Hollyclimber, Geordie, David, Dr. Jay, Jeff, 009, Matt, Mattp, and more. We had a good turn out last night, with beta flowing as fast as the beer. Yocum Ridge? No problem. Squire Creek Wall? Cake. Johannesburg N. Face? Don't go there if you are from New Jersey. Holly showed pictures of The Nose, and after extensive discussion, we determined that, contrary to myth, some rangers DO NOT lie. It was all good, but next time, guys, pay your bill before you leave. There was $30.00 unaccounted for when the barmaid kicked us out and we had to pay the bill. [This message has been edited by mattp (edited 10-03-2001).]

Maybe I'm just getting old, but I'll go for two pieces of gear AND the helmet. Rocks and carabiners fall from the cliff sometimes, apparently on their own, and even at a sport crag it is possible to catch one's foot in the rope and flip upside down and I just don't understand why so many people will wear helmets when riding their bicycles but not when on the rock.

Thanks Max. We banter about on this site and there have been some notable confrontations out on the crags, but we in Washington have had relatively little trouble over this issue compared to some other areas and I hope we can keep it that way. In general, the "traditional" crags like the Lower Wall at Index, Castle Rock, and Snow Creek wall have tended to remain that way, whereas the sport climbers have focused their efforts more at places like North Bend and Vantage (a few obvious exceptions have been duly discussed on this site). I would hope things will continue in that direction, so that there can remain opportunities for a variety of climbing experiences. It should be noted that there is currently an oversight committee/new route approval system in place at Exit 38 and I urge all climbers to respect it. Should anyone observe a potential violation, I would suggest that you inform the person installing bolts that there is such a process and ask them if they have obtained prior approval. The Frenchmen's Coulee Climbers Association has been organized with some of these same objectives. -mattp

I climbed Yocum Ridge in April with a higher than average rime load on it. Walter is right - the climb is not technically difficult and it involves a lot of traverssing on steep slopes, with some short sections of steep rime ice, never even close to vertical for more than twenty or thirty feet unless you go out of your way to make it difficult. That said, be prepared for adventure: I believe we belayed 15-16 pitches, and there was not one truly solid anchor anywhere. If you are up for it, it is a fun climb. -Mattp

I think October 17th is Darrington Appreciation Day. Should the weatherman cooperate, I'd be into going up there with you guys.

A friend of a friend of mine who has bagged every 9,000 footer in the state was said to have said that it is very tough to go the way the book suggests. He reported that it had a lot of travel on horrendous rock, though I'm not sure if that meant talus or cliff or both. This report is both old and third hand, so I wouldn't place too much weight on it, but then again you may want to go up there expecting something requiring more effort than a short side trip.

Cavey - Dred's post noted that many of the missing hangers are for anchors that can easily be set with natural pro. Thus, it would seem that perhaps this is a situation very similar to that which you protested on DDD: these may in fact be climbs that had for many years been climbed without bolts and somebody might be unhappy that they were "retrobolted." Call me paranoid, but I'm for caution when it comes to possibly inflaming somebody because we don't need a public controversy. Access has already been a problem in the canyon and there are both land managers and property owners who would be all too happy to close areas to climbing if they had an excuse to do so. -mattp [This message has been edited by mattp (edited 09-27-2001).]

Retro - Let us know what you find. I do not have a drill but I can bring some hangers for 1/2" and 3/8" bolts to the Megafest, and if we are in general agreement that at least some of the missing hangers or bolts were removed for no reason other than vandalism or theft, I'd be willing to help replace them. -mattp

I worked at a cross country ski camp near Leavenworth many years ago and we were constantly pestered by Pine Martens. I believe they are widespread throughout mountain forests throughout the Cascades, whereas Minks are more often found near water. Both are in the weasel family. I have not seen a Fisher in Washington.

Nolanr (others, excuse me because this is off-topic)- Have you ever attempted a climb that you believe nobody has ever tried (or succeeded on) before? There is a certain excitement that I find associated with that, an excitement that I cannot find by throwing myself at something that I know has already been done. I’ve tried to capture some of this same excitement by purposefully NOT reading the guidebook description of a route but, even still, my awareness that the damn thing had already been climbed detracted from the sense of adventure because I felt that I was somehow just playing games with myself by not using the available information. Sure, it is all a game, but I find that the playing board is of a different shape when I am on truly unexplored terrain. In part, new route exploration is ego driven. But it is not always an ego driven by a desire for public recognition and I know many climbers that have other than to put their names in “the record book.” I have “put up” some new routes that I have published and encouraged others to try. But I have not published reports of everything that I have done which I believed to be a first ascent. Some things I have found not to be worthy, and I told myself they were not something anybody else would be interested in although it might also be said that they were not routes “to be proud of.” I have in one instance published a route as a “not recommended” climb. And there is a Washington peak made of good granite that rivals the Stewart Range, where I have put up three good routes and I have not published any of them. Some times the exploration of new routes may the pursuit of a glory hound, but some times it is just plain fun. And I assure you, everything has not been done already. -mattp

About the "commando's:" I will say that the only time that I have ever witnessed any theft and vandalism away from the roadhead, it was perpetrated by some GI's from Fort Lewis, but do we really have any information that would suggest the commandos are responsible for the bolt removal? About the "vamdalism:" I have known hangers to be stolen from a variety of places for no apparent reason, but the prior posts have indicated that somebody went to the trouble of actually pulling (not merely chopping) bolts from 8-mile and Clamshell. As I'm sure some of our friends who regularly post to this site will tell you: it takes a considerable effort to pull bolts (even some of those old rusty 1/4" spinners). I find it hard to believe that bolt removal was the act of a vandal -- indeed, somebody must have thought they were doing the right thing. Before we all jump on the bandwagon and call these guys assholes, let's look at the situation and try to figure out what happened. I believe that 8-mile Rock is on private property -- is it possible that the landowner is responding to some grievance against climbers? I don't know whether Clamshell is on private property or not. What to do: Somebody who shall remain anonymous suggested to me that we replace all the missing bolts as a service project this weekend, and that might be consistent with the theme of "fostering the stewardship of the vertical environment." However, I believe we should try to figure out what happened, and if somebody was trying to make a statement by pulling bolts, I'd want to know what that statement was and I'd want to try to address it before I had any part in some kind of bolt battle. What do you guys (and gals) think?

Right you are, Josh, but Beck may simply have confused the Icicle fire with the ThirtyMile (or was it Twenty?) fire. That one WAS started by an untended campfire, almost certainly left behind by a dim bulb. I don't know about the hunter affiliation or the Old Post Office.

JERRY - SEND ME AN E-MAIL AND WE CAN ARRANGE A RENDEZVOUS. I'M NOT SURE ABOUT MY RETURN TRIP ITINERARY, BUT I'M PLANNING TO HEAD OVER FRIDAY NIGHT. -mattp@seanet.com

For the South Face of Prussik, it is slightly shorter and there is a little less elevation gain going over Aasgard Pass. However, I like camping at Lake Viviane, and to get there is about the same elevation gain and distance either way (Snow Creek or Aasgard). Aasgard is more scenic, with more views, but that approach has much more travel on scree and, should the weather turn bad, would be in the wind for much longer. Permits are often available for Snow Lakes when you can't get one to camp in the upper basin.

Earlier this year, when they installed a new gate on that road, I telephoned the PUD to ask about it. The guy I talked to said they had no plans to close the area to recreation, but that they did want to be able to close it in the event of a terrorist threat. And so Tricky may well be right. They guy I talked to sounded genuinely interested in the fact that climbers used the area, but for the most part the pattern there as elsewhere has been to close roads rather than to keep them open, and it is possible that the terrorist threat, even if a genuine concern, is just as much a motivation for closure as an excuse to serve the general goal of reducing access. In that area as elsewhere, they maintain select roads to facilities like official trailheads or boat ramps, but they have spent lots of money blocking other roads (including the spur that goes to Static Point) while doing little or nothing to restore any salmon habitat or to serve any other apparent management goal except, perhaps, to keep people from driving up there and dumping off old refridgerators. On that Static Point road, they left beheind several huge culverts that were ripped out of the ground and will be unusable if they ever want to reopen the road. In my eyes, these are just as much garbage as would be a dozen old refridgerators, though they do not contain any freon.

Mr Parker - You are absolutely right. Earlier threads indicated that Buckner and Maude were done for the year over a month ago, but these and Spider and other "ice climbs" like them usually don't even have any ice until this time of year. I have a few available weekends coming up and I might like to get out with you. If not, I hope one of our other CC.com buddies will Climbers - For those willing to crawl over the dirty terrain that often surrounds late season snow and ice, or able to cross a blocking crevass by climbing down in and back out of it, Call David Parker for a good time. - Natt

My apologies to Caveman for contributing to further discussion in this thread, unrelated to the original topic (beta), but directly related to the current topic of this thread (to chop or not to chop and what is righteous about bolting/removing bolts from an existing climb). Retro, I applaud you for being willing to clean up other people’s messes but as has been suggested already in this conversation, this one may not be a mess that needs to be or should be cleaned up with a crowbar. I haven’t been up there to look at the current installation, but the last time I was on the climb I do remember finding some heaps of webbing on some questionable natural anchors. You could remove all those slings, and pull the bolts and chains while you are at it, and for a team who is competent on the route and is not forced to retreat by weather or darkness, this would be no problem. But not every team has such luck and those that retreat from a climb often feel compelled to add slings to existing heaps of unsightly mess. Some people will leave a carabiner on a nut, invisible from afar and easily removed by the next party, but others will leave brightly colored slings tied around blocks and bushes, and these can be seen from as far away as the trail. You may not approve of their actions, but they are doing what they think is necessary for their own safety and I doubt you will be able to convince them to do otherwise – unless there is an obviously safe anchor already in place. Clearly, there are competing goals in play here. As a permanent installation, bolts should be minimized. But the visual impact of rappel slings, while not a permanent alteration of the crag environment, is probably more significant in the eyes of the non-climbing public who views the cliff from the trail across the creek. And even if they are cleaned up every time a stronger party is able to complete the route, the slings continue to sprout all over the place. I am not advocating adding retreat stations all the way up (and down) this or any other climb. But I believe those two stations in particular used to accumulate heaps of webbing on what may be unsafe anchors, and I would think it probably better to compromise on this one and leave the bolts in place.

I agree with Puget. I believe the "restoration" of DDD was probably a positive, the chest-beating was not. And I believe the Whipsaw incident was an example of poor judgment - probably on both sides. Retro - you asked for "salient points" and I hope you find some of the discussion here to be useful. I think you make some good points about the fact that bolts represent a permanent alteration of the rock and I share your disapproval of the trend towards increased acceptance of grid-bolting and of retrobolting historic climbs. But however you decide to follow up on this discussion, I hope you will show some respect for your fellow climbers - even those you may think are misguided, pussies, vandals, or all of the above. Somebody who replaces belay anchors goes to considerable effort and expense to do so and they rarely expect to receive any significant recognition but they do so out of a desire to contribute to the pursuit of our sport. Most of the time, I think those adding "chicken bolts" have the same motivation and I bet the cases of those who add bolts to an existing climb they cannot climb, in order that they will then be able to climb it, are relatively few. At times the tough-love of the crowbar, or the outspoken tirade, may be necessary. But these actions are not likely to change anybody's sense of what is right and wrong and you can't police all the crags. Let's see some more discussion. I look forward to meeting all of you at the megafest next week.

Rodchester - My argument is NOT that we should become isolationist and stop trying to influence nations. Nor do I mean to suggest that we have been the most ruthless peoples in the world. And yes, I believe you are right that Afghanistan is not part of Arabia. But my argument is, very simply, as I stated at the start of my post: I do not believe that there is a purely military solution to the problem of terrorism. And my fear is that most Americans and most American politicians may not look very far beyond a military response. Even if we bombed ten nations known to have a terrorist training camp within their borders, and even if we killed every suspected terrorist we could find, we would end up no more secure than we are now unless we were able to also address the conditions that tend to produce terrorists motivated to kill innocent Americans. And to do this, we will have to look at, and try to do something about, a widespread opinion that America truly is an evil power and we will also want to try to do something about social conditions that breed individuals who have no greater wish than to die in the act of killing innocent people. - Matt

In my view, a purely military response will do nothing but foster escalated violence. If we were to "drop the bomb" on Afghanistan, figuratively or literally, we might cath Bin Laden in that net, and we kill or scare some government clerics who had assisted him in some way, but we would also hurt millions of innocent people in a region that is already suffering. Were we to take this action, whether or not we might feel justified, those sympathetic to the plight of the Afghani's are certain to react not only with horror at what we would have done, but many are also going to take this as confirmation of the fact that America is more dangerous to the Middle East than all the terrorists put together. And they might be right. From the perspective of anybody who cares about Arab nationalism and human dignity in that part of the world, they believe that we installed the Shah of Iran in the1950's because he would help promote our oil companies' interests and he not only ran a repressive government but he literally murdered thousands of people (I don't actually know how many, but these events are well documented). They also believe that, whether or not we were justified in invading Iraq ten years ago, our policy of maintaining sanctions which do little or nothing to weaken Saddam but which do a tremendous amount to harm Iraqi citizens is not only a failure but it is evidence of our value for rhetoric over reality. And didn't we have a hand in undermining other powers in the region so that the Taliban could step in? I'm not an expert in American foreign policy, but I do pay some attention to news reports and analysis from around the world and outside this country, it is consistently said that in the middle East and elsewhere, our actions have frequently shown that we do not abhor terror the way we say that we do: we have continually aided and abetted mass-murder throughout Central America, Asia, and Africa for at least the last fifty years and each time that such conduct is criticized we simply say, as we are saying now: it isn't our fault; those other people put us in this position and we had no choice. Our nearly blind support for Israel, too, while perhaps necessary for the survival of this nation that is a friend of ours, wins us no favor with Arab people all over the world. It has been said that the only thing these people understand is force, and that may be true. But I say we DO have a choice as to what kind of force. I believe it just and appropriate to take strong action against those responsible for this week's attack, but we have a choice as to whether to launch a blunt retaliation at powers and people who may or may not be responsible or whether any action should be more focused than that. And we also have a choice as to whether we want to adopt a different posture around the world - one which would truly emphasize America's potential as a beacon of democracy and freedom rather than one that is based upon the notion that we are the most powerful nation and if others don't support our policies we will either wage economic or military war on them, or both. I believe our foreign policy since at least World War II has created an image of America that attracts the attention of every politically motivated suicidal maniac from Indonesia to Morocco. Last week's events were horrific. Lets not respond with even greater acts of murder that, even if they do put some terrorists out of business temporarily, will only foster a continued growth of terrorism aimed at America.

True, Iain, but the rock on that final fin below the summit of Broken Top is like pristine granite compared to the choss above the Early Morning Couloir.

Anybody up for a couple hours at Little Si this evening? I could leave work at 3:00.

I believe he is talking about taking neiter a right or a left, but climbing directly up the summit tower itself - a short (50 foot or so) vertical pitch. The more common approaches, traverssing either left accross the top of a snow patch or right accross a rock bench, are barely fifth class or perhaps not fifth class at all.

I used to take beginners up there on a regular basis and we used to call it 5.4 (about 1988). However, in some years there were large loose blocks that had to be removed at the start of the season. If you get a rating from someone, check the dating.

I haven't been up Stuart for many years, but Shuksan is very prominent in the view from many peaks in the central Cascades. Viewed from the south, it looks pretty symmetrical and is gently sloped on each skyline - a snow pyramid that might appear "volcanic." Bring on the photos!